Bread ... why?

[AdamJames]

I've avoided this thread because I miss bread soooooo much - I'd pretty much given up on it altogether as it always made me spike.

Then this morning in a rebellious mood I had two pieces of sourdough toast at breakfast after my usual morning oats. It was DELICIOUS Checked an hour later to see what the horrible damage was - and I was 4.9 - up from a 4.0 fasting!

Not what I was expecting - but very happy

Great result. Even more so if you had oats as well! I'm being very good for the next week or so, but for future reference, which particular sourdough bread was it? Is it a commercially available one?

 

[Polgara]

Great result. Even more so if you had oats as well! I'm being very good for the next week or so, but for future reference, which particular sourdough bread was it? Is it a commercially available one?

Sadly not - it was the last sourdough I had in the freezer baked by a lady local to us who used to sell loaves. She's too busy at Uni now. And anyway - I know from experience that a year ago this particular loaf would spike me - so it's must be more that my body is behaving so much better now rather than the type of bread itself.

 

[AdamJames]

Sadly not - it was the last sourdough I had in the freezer baked by a lady local to us who used to sell loaves. She's too busy at Uni now. And anyway - I know from experience that a year ago this particular loaf would spike me - so it's must be more that my body is behaving so much better now rather than the type of bread itself.

I was thinking your ability to deal with carbs must be pretty good for a diabetic if you can have porridge and bread and have a blood glucose of < 5 mmol/l an hour later!

 

[Polgara]

The allure of the (pretty much) forbidden fruit...

I don't miss potatoes, pasta or rice at all - but bread..... oh how I miss bread..... and especially toast......

 

[luv2spin]

I never eat any kind of bread. Only, Plain - boiled or steamed, lentils of any colour, beans (white-red-black-purple), chickpeas and such...

 

[Boo1979]

There are certain things that type 2 diabetics should avoid. You pay lip service to the view anything is negotiable. You can do all the testing you want. Carbs in any form are not good for t2s I would further argue not good for anyone. They are not an essential nutrient. By logical extension not required for life.

And the proof (rather than opinion / hypothesis) that all carbs are bad for all T2 diabetics, and everyone else as you imply, at all levels of intake is exactly what?
I think it much more appropriate and empowering for individual T2’s to approach carbs in the knowledge that they are likely to be worse than other food groups in terms of their effect on blood sugars and then to test the way their individual blood sugars respond.
Blanket statements that all people should / should not eat carbs or any other food group are equally inappropriate and arrogant whether they come from mainstream or alternative medical professionals or lay people such as forum members

 

[bulkbiker]

I think it much more appropriate and empowering for individual T2’s to approach carbs in the knowledge that they are likely to be worse than other food groups in terms of their effect on blood sugars and then to test the way their individual blood sugars respond.

So if someone arrives here with no knowledge of what they "should" be eating and with extremely high blood sugars we should suggest rather than dropping the 6 slices of toast they have for breakfast immediately and replacing them with eggs an bacon they should instead try 5 then 4 then 3 slices until they realise as you and most of us have that toast simply isn't great for their blood sugar levels.
Seems like a form of torture to me.

 

[Boo1979]

So if someone arrives here with no knowledge of what they "should" be eating and with extremely high blood sugars we should suggest rather than dropping the 6 slices of toast they have for breakfast immediately and replacing them with eggs an bacon they should instead try 5 then 4 then 3 slices until they realise as you and most of us have that toast simply isn't great for their blood sugar levels.
Seems like a form of torture to me.

No the logical thing would be to test the effect of 1 slice and go from there - starting at 6 slices would be as extreme as starting at 0. As I said before, the logical starting point IMO is to treat all carbs with caution in the knowledge that they are likely to produce a worse BS response than other foods, and then to test the actual impact on an individuals own body rather than simply accepting what other people on a forum say will happen based on their own body / their pet gurus body

 

[rab5]

And the proof (rather than opinion / hypothesis) that all carbs are bad for all T2 diabetics, and everyone else as you imply, at all levels of intake is exactly what?
I think it much more appropriate and empowering for individual T2’s to approach carbs in the knowledge that they are likely to be worse than other food groups in terms of their effect on blood sugars and then to test the way their individual blood sugars respond.
Blanket statements that all people should / should not eat carbs or any other food group are equally inappropriate and arrogant whether they come from mainstream or alternative medical professionals or lay people such as forum members

I didnt say carbs are bad... I said they are not good.
Its hardly a state secret an or unknown that Carbs are not essential for life. You do understand that basic tenant. You do understand essential nutrients. If not google is your friend lol

I would suggest we are in agreement there apart from the word likely.... CARBS are bad especially I would suggest for Type 2 Diabetics. They have insulin resistance. The damage is done. The question is what are you willing to do to try and stop it. I will go with cutting carbs. You can play around with it if you want. Im not into that.

I didnt say people should not eat carbs. Again I said they are not good for you. I did not mention other ....as you call them 'food groups' If im being arrogant well so what!!!! . I'm trying like everone else to sort my T2 out. Im hanging in with the most up to date Scientific knowledge I can find. If that makes people uneasy or makes them uncomfortable..... there is nothing I can do about that. We are entitled to our own opinions. We are NOT entitled to our own facts.

 

[Boo1979]

I didnt say carbs are bad... I said they are not good.
Its hardly a state secret an or unknown that Carbs are not essential for life. You do understand that basic tenant. You do understand essential nutrients. If not google is your friend lol

I would suggest we are in agreement there apart from the word likely.... CARBS are bad especially I would suggest for Type 2 Diabetics. They have insulin resistance. The damage is done. The question is what are you willing to do to try and stop it. I will go with cutting carbs. You can play around with it if you want. Im not into that.

I didnt say people should not eat carbs. Again I said they are not good for you. I did not mention other ....as you call them 'food groups' If im being arrogant well so what!!!! . I'm trying like everone else to sort my T2 out. Im hanging in with the most up to date Scientific knowledge I can find. If that makes people uneasy or makes them uncomfortable..... there is nothing I can do about that. We are entitled to our own opinions. We are NOT entitled to our own facts.

I have dealt with my Diabetes for over 22 years now and have followed low carb ( not no carb ) of 35-50g carbs for many years returned stable pre-diabetic / non diabetic hba1cs throughout from a starting point of blood sugars of 28mmol. Throughout I have juggled the main food groups ( carbs, fat, protein and fibre) as necessary to keep diabetes under control.
One important thing Ive learnt along the way is that scientific ‘knowledge’ is alwys incomplete, ever changing and full of ‘facts’ that contradict each other and as such should never be taken as gospel or used dogmatically

 

[rab5]

I have dealt with my Diabetes for over 22 years now and have followed low carb ( not no carb ) of 35-50g carbs for many years returned stable pre-diabetic / non diabetic hba1cs throughout from a starting point of blood sugars of 28mmol. Throughout I have juggled the main food groups ( carbs, fat, protein and fibre) as necessary to keep diabetes under control.
One important thing Ive learnt along the way is that scientific ‘knowledge’ is alwys incomplete, ever changing and full of ‘facts’ that contradict each other and as such should never be taken as gospel or used dogmatically

Why did you cut your carbs?

 

[Boo1979]

Why did you cut your carbs?

Because my tolerance for carbs has changed over the years and I chose not to increase / change medication in response.
I was initially (mis) diagnosed as insulin dependent ( no T1 or T2 back in the day) and then thatt diagnosis changed to non insulin dependant . I wass taught a fair bit about carbs and found that I could initially tolerate 30-40g carbs per meal with good blood sugar responses ( so around 100g daily) after about 15 years that changed and 30-40g is now closer to what my body can handle in a day while still producing good blood sugars - my latest hba1c was 40 and my meds halved.
Testing, retesting and making adjustments based on the results is the key science to balancing diabetic control and lifestyle at an individual level IMO

 

[lucylocket61]

I want to point out that, as with all things scientific, we do not yet know 100% that our bodies do not need carbs at all. There may be some undiscovered reason why we need some carbs. And some of us, myself included, do need some carbs to deal with other health issues. It is essential for my over-all health.

sweeping generalisations are seldom a good idea.

my thinking on this also goes along the lines of "why would our ancestors go to the trouble of growing, gathering or otherwise processing carbs if it wasnt necessary in some way we do not understand? "

 

[Boo1979]

I want to point out that, as with all things scientific, we do not yet know 100% that our bodies do not need carbs at all. There may be some undiscovered reason why we need some carbs. And some of us, myself included, do need some carbs to deal with other health issues. It is essential for my over-all health.

sweeping generalisations are seldom a good idea.

my thinking on this also goes along the lines of "why would our ancestors go to the trouble of growing, gathering or otherwise processing carbs if it wasnt necessary in some way we do not understand? "

And as with all things scientific there are many theories / hypotheses as to what is the ‘truth’, each of which will claim selective facts to support their theory / explanation at the same time as rubbishing those putting forward the alternative theories
I may be oversimplifying things but if the scientific “facts” were as cut and dried as some would have us believe and one size really does fit all, then I would think that even a bunch of scientists / medics could agree

Post edited by moderator to remove derogatory description.

 

[rab5]

Because my tolerance for carbs has changed over the years and I chose not to increase / change medication in response.
I was initially (mis) diagnosed as insulin dependent ( no T1 or T2 back in the day) and taught a fair bit about carbs. I found that I could initially tolerate 30-40g carbs per meal with good blood sugar responses ( so around 100g daily) after about 15 years that changed and 30-40g is now closer to what my body can handle in a day while still producing good blood sugars - my latest hba1c was 40. Testing, retesting and making adjustments based on the results is the key science to balancing diabetic control and lifestyle at an individual level IMO

Im trying to fully understand what you have just said. Let me know if I have got this right....... you have a carb set point but also take medication. Carbs raise your blood sugars. But you have managed to lower your HBa1C by lowering your carbs but not your medication. Have I have got this wrong.

Well done on the A1C reduction btw

 

[Boo1979]

Im trying to fully understand what you have just said. Let me know if I have got this right....... you have a carb set point but also take medication. Carbs raise your blood sugars. But you have managed to lower your HBa1C by lowering your carbs but not your medication. Have I have got this wrong.

Well done on the A1C reduction btw

My meds are as low as they can go without blood sugar control going completely up the Swanee.
I have experimented with many combinations -
v low carb (under 20g a day ) no meds and / or 24hr fasting combined produced blood sugars in the mid teens with ketones of 7 and a very unwell Boo
Over around 50g carbs a day combined with meds does the same to blood sugars and also produces an unwell Boo, as does more than around 15g carbs i; any one meal
BG control is also much harder when I include dairy or eggs in my diet and easier when I include a lot of fibre, which you can do keeping carbs low - think chia seeds, konjac noodles, inulin, etc etc

 

[rab5]

I want to point out that, as with all things scientific, we do not yet know 100% that our bodies do not need carbs at all. There may be some undiscovered reason why we need some carbs. And some of us, myself included, do need some carbs to deal with other health issues. It is essential for my over-all health.

sweeping generalisations are seldom a good idea.

my thinking on this also goes along the lines of "why would our ancestors go to the trouble of growing, gathering or otherwise processing carbs if it wasnt necessary in some way we do not understand? "

I find that statement quite amusing. We also sent wee boys up chimneys, used asbestos, slavery, child sacrifice, blood letting etc etc etc. Things move on. lol

 

[Boo1979]

I find that statement quite amusing. We also sent wee boys up chimneys, used asbestos, slavery, child sacrifice, blood letting etc etc etc. Things move on. lol

But theres still no incontravertable truth re carbs and taking the p out of people doesnt produce it either

 

[rab5]

But theres still no incontravertable truth re carbs and taking the p out of people doesnt produce it either

***** ****** are you people so sensitive. Right I think it better I dont discuss this anymore. You will only bring me down to your level and beat me with experience. lol

post edited by moderator to remove offensive language

 

[Boo1979]

***** ****** are you people so sensitive. Right I think it better I dont discuss this anymore. You will only bring me down to your level and beat me with experience. lol

Experience of all types is information not a weapon

Post edited by moderator to remove offensive language from the quoted text