Carbs-independent remission

chrisjohnh said:

I think you misunderstand me, tho that may well be my own fault. Through all my T2D journey I have been low(ish) carb or less at 130g, and have been a strong advocate of low carb both here and in other settings. I do not, and never have and never would challenge the validity of others’ methods and experiences. My thread was an enquiry into whether, once remission has been achieved, the constraint upon carbs can be relaxed to some degree without detriment and whether others have tried that. That is all. And I take the view that any objective questioning here is admissible.

Click to expand...

You are free to choose any level or quality of carbs you like. It is not mandatory. Low Carb worked for me and is still doing so. After 30 years of being formally DX'ed as T2D I turned an HbA1c of 106 into years of low 40's in a couple of months. I did use keto for a while but I lost too much weight. I also came off most of my meds, but my heart team put me on their meds that actually increased my BGL level by at least 2 mmol/l (tested by omitting them on alternate days, and measuring the drop) Yes I lost weight when I went LC, a full 8 stones, and my late wife who was never diabetic but ate the same diet as me also lost 8 stones so we both went back to the 10 stone weight as when we married. I am still 10 stones give or take a pound or two. i am not in remission as I have declared previous, I have a 40 mg tab of Gliclazide to help me now my kidneys are playing up. Some carby meals will push me back into diabetic levels but generally I can eat modest carbs without penalty. So for me carbs will defeat any ideas of remission even though I do not gain weight from them. So I do not support your hypothesis.

As regards my comments on ND, it is simply that I do not agree with what Taylor puts in his reports to justify his funding. He is using a standard OTC diet plan so it is not his invention. The only novel work he did was to use MRI to demonstrate the effect on the pancreas, but his explanations do not make much sense. He also has only demonstrated, but has not proven his hypothesis, which remains a hypothesis or a lemma. (as in dilemma). Other than that it is a valid method of gaining control of T2D and one I will recommend on occasions. there is also the Michael Mosely 800 diet plan that is similar and is marketed as Low Carb. same shakes. Same money making venture but without NHS backing because it is Low Carb.

KennyA said:

Interesting. The thing that struck me reading this thread (and other similar threads here) was that there is a considerable variance in the way we each seem to react. Perhaps this makes a search for a simple cause and effect relationship a bit tricky, certainly not one size fits all, although that is what I think is often attempted.

I can identify with some personal accounts,but not others: I am one of those people who went to keto levels on diagnosis, and have maintained these for three years: my BGs were normal (36) within four months and while I have lost > 25kg in three years very little of that loss happened in those four months. Weight loss followed BG normalisation in my case.

But then, I had quite severe diabetic symptoms for ten years before my BGs rose high enough to persuade my GP to make a diagnosis so perhaps I am just very sensitive to a BG rise. It raises the question for me and others of how, in due course, we maintain low BG levels while increasing carbs enough to stop weight loss.

Click to expand...

There is always the option to increase protein and fat to maintain weight, rather than carbs. That is what I did.
It took several weeks to stall the weightloss in my case, but then I am one for making one change at a time, and when it comes to weight gain/loss, a few days tells us nothing significant.

Bottom line is we all have to do our research, back our horse and own the decision. After x period, review, continue, adjust or change plans.

My approach was a bit like any other process improvement exercise.

I totally mised this thread, haven't read through it all yet, just opening two pages, but can relate to it.

I was diagnosed almost four years ago, hba1c was 97, I was borderline obese, I had no idea what diabetes was so got onto google and the first thing I saw was 'A slow death sentance' Which at the time, scared the life out of me.

So more research, read about the newcastle diet, I went on strict diet, rapid weight loss, cut down carbs, replaced a meal with a home made smoothie and three months later I was off meds, hba1c was 33, my BMI was normal, having lost 3 stone. I settled at that weight and started introducing foods back into the diet (and beer).

6 months after diagnosis my hba1c was 27, where it has stayed up until my last review in December (I had a 28 shortly after covid lockdowns, but all others 27).

I don't eat cakes, sweets, biscuits etc, Probably around 80g of carbs a day, one treat I allow myself is beer when meeting friends, I'll have a couple of pints.

Another note is I walk everywhere, try and do this around mealtimes, around 18,000 steps a day, I no longer have to commute for two hours, as mostly work from home, so I gladly spend that time going for a walk in the park.

But I have noticed I can usually tolerate more carbs, I've had a few pizza express's without causing a spike (same with chicken tikka masala), just two weeks ago I had a mcdonalds breakfast, double sausage and egg mcmuffin (28g) and went from 4.6 before to 5.3 two hours later.

A part of me doesn't want to hear I could increase carbs, as I'm quite settled where I am, but then I did love a pizza

Will be interested to see how you get on

Where can I find details of a good low carb diet to lose weight? The ones I have found all recommend strange ingredients that I wouldn't normally eat. I enjoy plain food - can I just eat lots of salads/ veg soup and protein? Thanks in advance

Meerkatmum said:

Where can I find details of a good low carb diet to lose weight? The ones I have found all recommend strange ingredients that I wouldn't normally eat. I enjoy plain food - can I just eat lots of salads/ veg soup and protein? Thanks in advance

Click to expand...

Check out dietdoctor.com

Meerkatmum said:

Where can I find details of a good low carb diet to lose weight? The ones I have found all recommend strange ingredients that I wouldn't normally eat. I enjoy plain food - can I just eat lots of salads/ veg soup and protein? Thanks in advance

Click to expand...

You appear to be missing the mainstay of many low carb/keto diets meat ,fish and dairy.
Add those in with some green above ground grown veg and salads and you should be fine.

Meerkatmum said:

Where can I find details of a good low carb diet to lose weight? The ones I have found all recommend strange ingredients that I wouldn't normally eat. I enjoy plain food - can I just eat lots of salads/ veg soup and protein? Thanks in advance

Click to expand...

I still find Atkins 'New Diet Revolution' a handy guide. I have several editions and the last one from 2003 I think - is perhaps the most useful.
I have found the stir fry, frozen packs from Lidl are handy to have in the freezer, I had half a pack yesterday with some beef I cooked in the pressure cooker and shared with my husband.
There seems to be no need to eat low calorie in order to lose weight - which might seem strange, and nor is it necessary to be hungry, or go to the gym or yomp for miles each day.

Meerkatmum said:

Where can I find details of a good low carb diet to lose weight? The ones I have found all recommend strange ingredients that I wouldn't normally eat. I enjoy plain food - can I just eat lots of salads/ veg soup and protein? Thanks in advance

Click to expand...

The problem is what you normally eat isn’t working for you. So to cause change you need to make change.

Many of the “strange” ingredients could simply be better alternatives to what you are used to and simply means buying a product with a different label. Is it that you actively don’t like the ingredients or that you don’t know what they are or where to get them? Are there any in particular you’re referring to? Maybe we can help you navigate them.

chrisjohnh said:

Thank you very much! Your own HbA1c reduction has been phenomenal, I congratulate you, well done. What is being tested here is the scope, through weight loss, to become truly non-diabetic and thereby become carbs-tolerant , but subject to not going overboard and to preventing weight regain. For myself I don’t have a view as to how it will go with me. Time will tell.

Click to expand...

There’s been another thread a week or so ago discussing different sub types of type 2 (And that discussion has been had several times in the last few years).

There certainly seems a subsection of type 2 that respond extremely well to weight loss, achieve remission - even without drastic carb restriction - and a degree of carb increase is possible thereafter. However I’d caution anyone getting excited that it definitively does not apply to all type 2. Some lose significant weight, achieve remission but most definitely cannot increase carbs and seem to much more easily lose remission. This group also seem to need significantly greater carb reduction to get to that result too.

Over the last 5 yrs I’ve seen these two groups represented over and over again. It’s great for those it works for. Disheartening to be told it’s that simple for those it doesn’t . I just hope those lucky ones remember just because they can lose many kg’s, achieve HbA1c’s in the 30’s and do it all on 100g+ carbs a day not everyone can.

Meerkatmum said:

Where can I find details of a good low carb diet to lose weight? The ones I have found all recommend strange ingredients that I wouldn't normally eat. I enjoy plain food - can I just eat lots of salads/ veg soup and protein? Thanks in advance

Click to expand...

I kept it simple, as others stated, fish, or chicken, 2 lots of veg and a salad (plus smoothie for lunch), the walking around meal times help a lot, I realise not everyone has the time to be able to do this, but it worked for me

HSSS said:

There’s been another thread a week or so ago discussing different sub types of type 2 (And that discussion has been had several times in the last few years).

There certainly seems a subsection of type 2 that respond extremely well to weight loss, achieve remission - even without drastic carb restriction - and a degree of carb increase is possible thereafter. However I’d caution anyone getting excited that it definitively does not apply to all type 2. Some lose significant weight, achieve remission but most definitely cannot increase carbs and seem to much more easily lose remission. This group also seem to need significantly greater carb reduction to get to that result too.

Over the last 5 yrs I’ve seen these two groups represented over and over again. It’s great for those it works for. Disheartening to be told it’s that simple for those it doesn’t . I just hope those lucky ones remember just because they can lose many kg’s, achieve HbA1c’s in the 30’s and do it all on 100g+ carbs a day not everyone can.

Click to expand...

One thing I have learnt is type 2 is an individual battle, while we can give support and help each other, what works for one, doesn't always work for others. Those who can't low carb aren't forgotten, I do think walking every day helps (not everyone can do this as well), but we are all in this together.

This discussion ties into these new subgroups of diabetes that I've been reading about lately.
One of these subgroups has been identified as Mild Obesity Related Diabetes, where your T2 has been caused by the overfill of fat onto the liver/pancreas.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35607770/


https://www.livescience.com/61917-diabetes-five-types.html


It would appear that myself & other like @Stuzey above are part of this subgroup, we are MODs
The articles focus on the medical profession identifying these patients early & focusing on weight loss.
These would be the candidates that Taylor identified for his Direct Trial.
It's nice to see the thinking change & the chronic progressive dogma being questioned.

How they can class "severe insulin deficiency " as T2 is completely beyond me..

Do they not use simple logic any more?

So there may be unconscious bias in the ND studies in that they selected their participants as being (a) recenrtly diagnosed, and (b) having a BMI in a small range. I can go with that. It is clear that ND is only applicable to a section of T2D world. It does not fit all.

chrisjohnh said:

Is not the distinction between pancreatic dysfunction arising from an auto-immune disorder (T1) as opposed to arising from a fat-deposition disorder (T2)?

Click to expand...

My view is that T2 are insulin over producers
T1 and the variants are insulin deficient / non existent endogenous insulin.

This then avoids all the stupidity around "Insulin resistant or insulin does work properly" which we see at the start of every study on T2.

If like Prof Ben Bikman you think T2 is hyperinsulinemia it becomes obvious what the best treatments are and testing for it becomes far more possible.

Anyone who is deficient in insulin or produces very little to none will probably need insulin in the future.

Seems pretty logical to me.

That's my take exactly Type 1 Hypo-insulinimia, type 2 Hyper-insulinimia. Although depending on treatment, type 2 can flog the pancreas nearly to death, so eventually insulin may be necessary in those cases.
it would help so much if every diabetic was tested annually for insulin production.