Carnivore Corner

[lucylocket61]

I have been eating chicken, lamb, beef, pork (also as streaky bacon), eggs, some cheese although not much, cream, whole milk. Once in the last 2 weeks I had 2 sausages - not as high protein as I would like, but the best I can get here and one more yesterday in a frittata with some left over chicken and some black pudding, which I'd also had just once in the last 2 weeks. The only processed food I have is the occasional sausage and occasional bacon.

Drinks are tea, with milk, water and once in a while, coffee. No desserts, no sweets, no sugars or sweeteners, no fruit, no soda type drinks.

I believe I am putting weight on due to fluids - 8 lb in one week is quite a lot for it to be due to excess calories. I have done something similar before (ie 11st 10lb before the birth of my 9lb 10oz son to 11st 10lb a day later. Disheartening.) more than 50 years ago now though.

It sounds as though what is happening to me is not typical then. I'll give it a bit longer. Had a bit of a relapse today after an awful day yesterday so it'll take a day or so to get back on track.

are you used to eating meat, especially red meat? It can take a while for your gut bacteria to adapt to digesting it. Often, when we eat a different diet to the one we are used to, we get digestive problems for this reason. Hence the 'food poisoning' when we are abroad, which is due to a lack of the right bacteria in our guts for proper digestion.

 

[Member496333]

Sunday breakfast.

 

[Annb]

I am not an insulin user, but I remember there being conversations regarding having to bolus beforehand for protein as well as for the carbs. Perhaps an insulin user could provide the fraction adjusment to make for protein grams.

There was also the Pizza Effect that is a bane to insulin users in that it delays the blood spikes from a fatty meal such as pizza, and this meant a split dose had to be applied. Again, I may be talking out of my derriere here since it is not from my personal experience.

Strangely enough, someone mentioned to me yesterday evening that fats can cause spikes in BG. I didn't really understand what he was saying, but it must have been this "Pizza efect" he was talking about. I'd never heard of it before. Must look into this further.

 

[Annb]

are you used to eating meat, especially red meat? It can take a while for your gut bacteria to adapt to digesting it. Often, when we eat a different diet to the one we are used to, we get digestive problems for this reason. Hence the 'food poisoning' when we are abroad, which is due to a lack of the right bacteria in our guts for proper digestion.

Yes, I have eaten all sorts of meat for many years although, I must admit that I often feel a bit "turned off" by beef these days. Maybe I am developing a sensitivity to it. It happens from time to time. I like the thought of it, but when it is in front of me ...

 

[bulkbiker]

that fats can cause spikes in BG

Not really but they can assist in lowering the absolute level of the spike while extending the time scale of it.
The pizza effect is carbs and fat acting together to mess up your blood glucose. It can play havoc with T1's insulin doses because of this but if you are avoiding carbs as much as poss then its fairly unlikely.

 

[DCUKMod]

@therower - I have contacted LooperCat directly about this matter. As she was offended by my request for help for another member on this thread, it would not be appropriate to hail her back again, you will, I feel sure, agree.

Not really but they can assist in lowering the absolute level of the spike while extending the time scale of it.
The pizza effect is carbs and fat acting together to mess up your blood glucose. It can play havoc with T1's insulin doses because of this but if you are avoiding carbs as much as poss then its fairly unlikely.

@bulkbiker - I think it important to include insulin dependant T2s in your statement? In the context of your reply, @Annb uses insulin to help with her diabetes.

 

[bulkbiker]

@therower - I have contacted LooperCat directly about this matter. As she was offended by my request for help for another member on this thread, it would not be appropriate to hail her back again, you will, I feel sure, agree.


@bulkbiker - I think it important to include insulin dependant T2s in your statement? In the context of your reply, @Annb uses insulin to help with her diabetes.

Very true ...sorry @Annb forgot you were an insulin user so it may have a similar effect on you too.

 

[Annb]

Very true ...sorry @Annb forgot you were an insulin user so it may have a similar effect on you too.

It possibly would, but since, as you have noted, I am reducing carbs as far as possible, it probably isn't the issue I am trying to deal with.

 

[Oldvatr]

The carb rush normally happens in the first 2 hours after a meal but the protein kick can be another 2 hours or so later. and the presence of mucho fat will push both out in time. Are you on fixed dose or able to bolus? If you bolus for carbs only but are eating mainly protein [as in carnivore], then this could mean you are missing the train since it leaves 2 hours or so later.

 

[Deleted member 308541]

Nice flat brisket from Des the butcher.

 

[Annb]

The carb rush normally happens in the first 2 hours after a meal but the protein kick can be another 2 hours or so later. and the presence of mucho fat will push both out in time. Are you on fixed dose or able to bolus? If you bolus for carbs only but are eating mainly protein [as in carnivore], then this could mean you are missing the train since it leaves 2 hours or so later.

There seems to be lots that I have been misinformed about regarding this diabetes/insulin thing. I was told to eat carbs by the diabetic nurse, the doctor and the dietician. I was told to take insulin about 15 minutes before eating and to check BG 11/2 hours after taking the insulin. There was never any information about protein and BG - mainly because the medics here don't approve of anything other than the regime they prescribe (low fat, high carb - in my opinion, lots of fruit and veg). I was advised to stick to the dose prescribed by the nurse, but I have made my own adjustments to both basal and bolus. To my mind, both currently too high, but at least having some effect - less is not helpful. Overnight, long acting insulin = 65 units (just put it up from 64 a couple of nights ago) and daily = 34 units before each meal - currently only once or twice a day since I am also doing some IF.

So, in your opinion, should I be checking BG 31/2 - 4 hours after eating my carni meal? Should I then take extra insulin if BG is high (diabetic nurse suggested I check before bed and, if it is high, take another small dose of insulin. Not an idea ever suggested before and seems wrong just before taking overnight dose of long acting insulin, so I don't do it. All other medics have told me that the insulin should be taken to deal with food about to be taken and not otherwise.

@Tiptoo that brisket looks good. I've got some in the freezer for cooking this week but am now considering giving beef a rest for a while to see if that is upsetting my innards.

 

[Lotties]

Got a very minor cut on my middle finger first knuckle at the weekend~1.5mm and not deep . Brand new boning knife for my fish - gad it's sharp.

I knocked it getting into the car this morning and it's still bleeding freely. I'm pretty sure my K2 levels are OK. Has anyone any suggestions? I'm getting a few more bruises lately but they're not bad. Thanks.

 

[Brunneria]

We can only hope that an heartfelt apology was forthcoming.

Got a very minor cut on my middle finger first knuckle at the weekend~1.5mm and not deep . Brand new boning knife for my fish - gad it's sharp.

I knocked it getting into the car this morning and it's still bleeding freely. I'm pretty sure my K2 levels are OK. Has anyone any suggestions? I'm getting a few more bruises lately but they're not bad. Thanks.

It is vit K1 that deals with blood clotting, I believe. Not Vit K2.

 

[DCUKMod]

There seems to be lots that I have been misinformed about regarding this diabetes/insulin thing. I was told to eat carbs by the diabetic nurse, the doctor and the dietician. I was told to take insulin about 15 minutes before eating and to check BG 11/2 hours after taking the insulin. There was never any information about protein and BG - mainly because the medics here don't approve of anything other than the regime they prescribe (low fat, high carb - in my opinion, lots of fruit and veg). I was advised to stick to the dose prescribed by the nurse, but I have made my own adjustments to both basal and bolus. To my mind, both currently too high, but at least having some effect - less is not helpful. Overnight, long acting insulin = 65 units (just put it up from 64 a couple of nights ago) and daily = 34 units before each meal - currently only once or twice a day since I am also doing some IF.

So, in your opinion, should I be checking BG 31/2 - 4 hours after eating my carni meal? Should I then take extra insulin if BG is high (diabetic nurse suggested I check before bed and, if it is high, take another small dose of insulin. Not an idea ever suggested before and seems wrong just before taking overnight dose of long acting insulin, so I don't do it. All other medics have told me that the insulin should be taken to deal with food about to be taken and not otherwise.

@Tiptoo that brisket looks good. I've got some in the freezer for cooking this week but am now considering giving beef a rest for a while to see if that is upsetting my innards.

Ann, people here can make comment about your regime, but they cannot tell you to alter insulin doses or suchlike like .

I would agree that lots of testing, and importantly keeping records of what and when you have eaten and your blood sugars. To get a handle on when you're bloods are rising, then coming back down again, I would consider testing before eating, then at the 1 and 2 hour marks. If it isn't falling at 2 hrs, I'd test every 30 minutes until it did. That'd be me.

As you already identified there are likely some gaps in your knowledge of managing your insulin and food, my suggestion would be that you invest in yourself, by seeking an appointment with your Medics, to go through some of the suggestions made to you over the recent past, and ask for a carb counting course? If such a course is not readily available near you, you could consider having a look at Bertie online. Bertieonline is a T1 education course, made available to those living with diabetes by the NHS folks in Bournemouth. You can do it at your own pace, in your own time. It could help in the meantime?

Those are just my thoughts.

 

[Lotties]

It is vit K1 that deals with blood clotting, I believe. Not Vit K2.

Thanks

 

[Oldvatr]

There seems to be lots that I have been misinformed about regarding this diabetes/insulin thing. I was told to eat carbs by the diabetic nurse, the doctor and the dietician. I was told to take insulin about 15 minutes before eating and to check BG 11/2 hours after taking the insulin. There was never any information about protein and BG - mainly because the medics here don't approve of anything other than the regime they prescribe (low fat, high carb - in my opinion, lots of fruit and veg). I was advised to stick to the dose prescribed by the nurse, but I have made my own adjustments to both basal and bolus. To my mind, both currently too high, but at least having some effect - less is not helpful. Overnight, long acting insulin = 65 units (just put it up from 64 a couple of nights ago) and daily = 34 units before each meal - currently only once or twice a day since I am also doing some IF.

So, in your opinion, should I be checking BG 31/2 - 4 hours after eating my carni meal? Should I then take extra insulin if BG is high (diabetic nurse suggested I check before bed and, if it is high, take another small dose of insulin. Not an idea ever suggested before and seems wrong just before taking overnight dose of long acting insulin, so I don't do it. All other medics have told me that the insulin should be taken to deal with food about to be taken and not otherwise.

@Tiptoo that brisket looks good. I've got some in the freezer for cooking this week but am now considering giving beef a rest for a while to see if that is upsetting my innards.

You asked my opinion in regard to the timings i gave. Those were just monitoring times I use to see how I react to protein, and I often find my bgl is higher at 4 hrs than at 2 hrs with some meat or fat heavy meals (stews, curries etc). As I am not an insulin user myself I cannot possibly advise on medication, but I have seen others discussing the points I raised on this forum regarding split bolus and pizza effect delays.

Reading some NHS literature, then they seem to only allow for carbs, and do not consider split doses. I have seen split doses being recommended for pumped users where the adjustment is a relatively simple dial up option.
This may be of use
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6375528/

And something about pizzas
https://diatribe.org/pizza-and-blood-sugar-control-not-quite-easy-pie

And finally, one on protein counting for insulin
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/nutrition/protein-and-diabetes.html

Note: this article has an error in it. ketones are esters of fat and are produced from fat when it is broken down during metabolism. ketones are not proteins, Proteinuria is associated with kidney damage not protein intake and ketones are not any indicators of AKI (which is the what the microalbimuria marker shows) However, there may be an association between kidney damage being triggered by very high protein intake. This may be relevant to discuss further in the Carnivore thread??????

But none of these articles above is NHS approved, so treat with caution.

 

[Annb]

You asked my opinion in regard to the timings i gave. Those were just monitoring times I use to see how I react to protein, and I often find my bgl is higher at 4 hrs than at 2 hrs with some meat or fat heavy meals (stews, curries etc). As I am not an insulin user myself I cannot possibly advise on medication, but I have seen others discussing the points I raised on this forum regarding split bolus and pizza effect delays.

Reading some NHS literature, then they seem to only allow for carbs, and do not consider split doses. I have seen split doses being recommended for pumped users where the adjustment is a relatively simple dial up option.
This may be of use
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6375528/

And something about pizzas
https://diatribe.org/pizza-and-blood-sugar-control-not-quite-easy-pie

And finally, one on protein counting for insulin
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/nutrition/protein-and-diabetes.html

Note: this article has an error in it. ketones are esters of fat and are produced from fat when it is broken down during metabolism. ketones are not proteins, Proteinuria is associated with kidney damage not protein intake and ketones are not any indicators of AKI (which is the what the microalbimuria marker shows) However, there may be an association between kidney damage being triggered by very high protein intake. This may be relevant to discuss further in the Carnivore thread??????

But none of these articles above is NHS approved, so treat with caution.

Food for thought there. Not entirely sure I understand the first article - and I suspect that my local medics won't either - they never talk in these terms and can't explain HbA1c results to me. However, I have just noted that my BG has risen by 2 points an hour and a half after bolus and another 1 1/2 half an hour later. Just going to check again but that is interesting. The only thing I have found so far that really has an effect is to eat nothing - obviously not a long term solution.

 

[Annb]

After the pate, only tea and the BG has dropped a bit. Now down to 9.3 from a high of 12.0 at 11.45 - and four and a half hours after taking Humilin S. I reckon that, at this rate, I should be down within range by late afternoon or early evening. Trouble is, I am very hungry already and tea isn't hacking it. I will keep trying though because I want to see what is happening and have something to take to my GP when (if) I get an appointment.

 

[Annb]

5.15 pm and BG is now down to 6.5. That's a win for me. Have to think about more food soon, or it will drop down to the 3's. Don't think it will be pate though - had enough carbs for the day (5+ is too many for me).

 

[Member496333]

300g of lamb’s liver tonight. Fried in butter and served on grated cheese in a bowl. Rough and ready, but immortality guaranteed. Haven’t eaten a plant for something like eight months now. Still breathing. Arteries haven’t yet clogged up with wax. So far so good