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Chances of stopping insulin??

Most of the T2's that ViRTA and Jason Fung treat?

Yes but it's not clear to me how many T2's actually come off insulin. In the Virta data they all seem to be lumped together with people 'who reduced or eliminated their medication'.

I assume not all of them were on insulin, since it must include other types of medication.

I see we now have 3 respondents in this thread (out of how many members?) who have managed to do it which is great, but I am not seeing anything that makes me think that stopping insulin is easy or common.
 
Yes but it's not clear to me how many T2's actually come off insulin. In the Virta data they all seem to be lumped together with people 'who reduced or eliminated their medication'.

I assume not all of them were on insulin, since it must include other types of medication.

I see we now have 3 respondents in this thread (out of how many members?) who have managed to do it which is great, but I am not seeing anything that makes me think that stopping insulin is easy or common.

Its definitely not easy - and is actually quite scary (until you realise that its working). I was on MDI insulin for about three years.
 
It seems that the encouraging take-home point is that someone who is still producing sufficient endogenous insulin can potentially cease exogenous injections with a dietary intervention of appropriate magnitude. Of course every case will be extremely individual, particularly if there’s a question mark over the diabetes status. Overall I feel like the majority of resistant, insulin dependent diabetics may be able to eventually get off the insulin with some good fortune and lots of hard work. Whether anyone wants to, or if anyone else thinks that they should, is of course another matter.
 
I know only 3 people responded,there are a few more who have come off medication and insulin
 
It seems that the encouraging take-home point is that someone who is still producing sufficient endogenous insulin can potentially cease exogenous injections with a dietary intervention of appropriate magnitude. Of course every case will be extremely individual, particularly if there’s a question mark over the diabetes status. Overall I feel like the majority of resistant, insulin dependent diabetics may be able to eventually get off the insulin with some good fortune and lots of hard work. Whether anyone wants to, or if anyone else thinks that they should, is of course another matter.

Me Jim! Me... I want to come of insulin. However hard and whatever it takes.
I can see it is NOT an easy option or lots more T2's would have already done so.

I am looking for someone to say to me... "Follow me, I'm right behind you"
Po
 
Yes but it's not clear to me how many T2's actually come off insulin. In the Virta data they all seem to be lumped together with people 'who reduced or eliminated their medication'.

I assume not all of them were on insulin, since it must include other types of medication.

I see we now have 3 respondents in this thread (out of how many members?) who have managed to do it which is great, but I am not seeing anything that makes me think that stopping insulin is easy or common.
From the published study
"Insulin therapy was reduced or eliminated in 94% of users" Unfortunately ViRTA seem to have removed access to the full version of the published papers so I'm not sure about how many of the original 349 in the study were taking insulin.
 
As you can clearly see, I wrote "whether T1 or T2".



Every single day? For diet controlled T2's maybe, but for insulin dependent T2's ?
Yes I saw that. I agreed with you on type 1.

My point is that all t2 diabetes was seen as progressive and that we’d all end up on medications and ultimately insulin. And that none of us could roll back the clock and take less medicine in the future than we do now.
 
For sure, but remember the majority of T2 outside of communities such as this are being given poor advice regarding their food choices.

Crumbs Jim sadly that is all to true. I mean 'they' ARE the experts why should one not follow their advice and guidance.

Well... I was told in no uncertain terms a month ago: "Do not go to bed if your readings are below 8, eat two or three biscuits until you are above 8 again! So I have a reading of say 5 or 6 and then scoff biscuits to raise it before sleeping"

I had some very interesting replies to a post on here that made me feel 100% better, knowing that that was not the best advice to give a person. I now 'just go to bed' when my readings are below 8 or 7 or even 6! I get up for a wee and find that my levels rise during the night... They do NOT fall. Perhaps some people (Type 1's and some T2 on insulin do have to watch they don't have a hypo whilst asleep)

How many 'Type 2s on Insulin' have died in their sleep, as a result of going Hypo?
(This is a serious question btw)

Po
 
My reversal/remission comment was about all type 2 not specifically those on insulin. So I stand by the fact that everyday we see type 2 reverse their condition. Some all the way from insulin to non diabetic numbers just on diet, others by taking less medication and getting better numbers. It’s all still reversal not progression.

How many type 2 on insulin are ever given the chance, support or even belief that it is a possibility for those still producing enough insulin of their own? How many get the chance to check if they are producing their own insulin even? Outside of these forum very few.
 
I was told by the DN that once I was on insulin that it would be for life. There has never been any mention that it is possible to come off it and they don't like it that I have come off it by myself. I was told I should have gone to them for medical supervision yet at the same time I was told they would have tried to persuade me not to stop insulin. Maybe it is this attitude that persuades people to not even bother trying.

I find my doctor and DN' s attitude to be really quite weird. I go through this 'naughty girl' ticking off at each annual review and they insist that I remain on their records as insulin dependant even though I haven't had it prescribed for nearly three years. I'm told the reason for this is that I won't keep up the low carbing forever and one day soon will be asking for it to be prescribed again.
 
I was told by the DN that once I was on insulin that it would be for life. There has never been any mention that it is possible to come off it and they don't like it that I have come off it by myself. I was told I should have gone to them for medical supervision yet at the same time I was told they would have tried to persuade me not to stop insulin. Maybe it is this attitude that persuades people to not even bother trying.

I find my doctor and DN' s attitude to be really quite weird. I go through this 'naughty girl' ticking off at each annual review and they insist that I remain on their records as insulin dependant even though I haven't had it prescribed for nearly three years. I'm told the reason for this is that I won't keep up the low carbing forever and one day soon will be asking for it to be prescribed again.
Surely that’s falsifying your medical records? The last 3 years proves that you are not currently insulin dependent. It effects things like dvla and all insurance. If they are right and you need it again in the future then add it back then. I’d be speaking with the practice manager and making sure my records were accurate. What happens if you get taken into hospital and they go by your records?
 
Insulin therapy was reduced or eliminated in 94% of users

The trouble with that is that surely anyone doing a low carb diet is going to reduce their insulin. I'm a T1 and I'll be on insulin for life but if I go lower carb I'd expect to reduce my bolus and possibly my basal as well. I'd love to know what percentage eliminated their insulin.

I know that the official line/prognosis for T2s is a gradual increase of meds until they are insulin dependent. Is the expectation then that they gradually increase insulin for life too? (Note I'm not advocating this as a treatment, I'm just trying to clarify what the official medical non-low-carb-diet line is for T2s. ?) Given that one quarter of people in old age nursing homes are T2, I guess the assumption is that this is an old age disease for many, so the progression doesn't matter.....

My ten years T2 88 year old dad lost a stone and a half while low carbing with us in the NZ summer/UK winter and his blood sugars came down to (very) occasional 4s. (He says he still wants to lose half a stone but I'm guessing that won't happen till he next comes to visit). He'd progressed to gliclazide and unfortunately doesn't remember his latest hba1c, but I'm sure it'll have come down. Will his team authorise a lowering of gliclazide for him? He didn't have any hypos with me so I'm guessing it's not necessary. Unfortunately he is clueless about his meds (he has a veritable cornucopia of them for heart and back related issues) and though he's low carbing there's not much hope of him remembering to ask about hba1cs. Apologies, I think I've gone off topic :)
 
Surely that’s falsifying your medical records? The last 3 years proves that you are not currently insulin dependent. It effects things like dvla and all insurance. If they are right and you need it again in the future then add it back then. I’d be speaking with the practice manager and making sure my records were accurate. What happens if you get taken into hospital and they go by your records?

Yes... but they don't listen.
 
Yes but it's not clear to me how many T2's actually come off insulin. In the Virta data they all seem to be lumped together with people 'who reduced or eliminated their medication'.

I assume not all of them were on insulin, since it must include other types of medication.

I see we now have 3 respondents in this thread (out of how many members?) who have managed to do it which is great, but I am not seeing anything that makes me think that stopping insulin is easy or common.

I don't see anything that makes me think it is easy or common either. I don't think it's possible to put a number and even remotely possible to ever really know how many come off get it that are genuinely insulin dependent.

I'd also speculate that there are many who are taking insulin that are over producing insulin already and being prescribed a high carb diet which traps them in a viscous cycle that creates an ever increasing demand for insulin and a progressive worsening of health via insulin resistance etc. There are many new people who sign up here who remark that their DN or doctor, hcp etc is telling them to eat plenty of carbs, porridge is good for you, weetbix, toast, ete is common advice given to T2's from experts.

I just don't think it's possible to even know how many T2' are taking insulin that actually need it or don't.
 
I see we now have 3 respondents in this thread (out of how many members?) who have managed to do it which is great, but I am not seeing anything that makes me think that stopping insulin is easy or common.
True, however most members of the forum will never have progressed to needing insulin to lower their blood sugars because they have followed dietary advice to cut carbs maybe? Just a thought..
 
I’m reasonably sure that insulin resistant diabetics coming off insulin once on it, is very far from common. But in my view this would be because the general standard of care for T2 is...erm...how to put this politely...suboptimal. Things do appear to be ever so slowly turning around though, which is great.
 
Let's not go bickering over all of this.

Surely, in terms of whether any individual can come off insulin depends on a huge number of factors, including where they are making that decision from. It all depends on the starting point and why insulin is/was being considered/prescribed. I'm only talking T2 here.

If they were very recently diagnosed with extremely high numbers, and insulin was given to get the numbers into a safe zone, promptly, then there is probably the potential there could be some lifestyle changes that could be made to improve the individual's lot to make their insulin journey short.

If at the other end of things, the individual has been fighting, tooth and nail, to constantly keep their numbers down, eat well (thinking deep LC or keto, in this example), stay trim and limit their meds to the minimum, but still their numbers are in poor territory, they could be fighting a losing battle if their natural insulin production is dwindling away.

Of course there are several (probably hundreds) of steps between those scenario, but surely all any person can do is get themselves in the best shape they can manage, with the resources available to them.

Whilst I think I would fight against insulin with every fibre of my body, one can never be too sure when one might think enough is enough. Sometimes those, with co-morbidities in particular, are just juggling too many balls, whilst keeping their mutiple plates spinning. I can see why sometimes it is absolutely the right thing to do.
 
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I’m reasonably sure that insulin resistant diabetics coming off insulin once on it, is very far from common. But in my view this would be because the general standard of care for T2 is...erm...how to put this politely...suboptimal. Things do appear to be ever so slowly turning around though, which is great.

To be honest, I'm pretty surprised by the amount of turn around to date. It's impressive and encouraging.... but perhaps with the ever increasing amount of people getting great results on low carb/keto, there comes a point where things have to change. This has probably also been aided by the amount of celebs who are following keto and you know how well that sells.
 
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