Cheese filled bacon mug

borofergie · Oct 28, 2012

desidiabulum said:
Hang on, surely saturated fats isn't the only issue here? I thought processed meats are bad for your health because of high levels of sodium, nitrate levels reducing insulin production, higher risk of stomach and pancreatic cancer (wasn't there some Swedish research on this?), etc - and that THOSE are the reasons why we are advised to have no more than one portion of processed meats a week.
Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm sure you all will!)

I don't think there is any good quality data on any of this.

The nitrates thing is a myth:
http://chriskresser.com/the-nitrate-and ... fear-bacon

It may surprise you to learn that the vast majority of nitrate/nitrite exposure comes not from food, but from endogenous sources within the body. (1) In fact, nitrites are produced by your own body in greater amounts than can be obtained from food, and salivary nitrite accounts for 70-90% of our total nitrite exposure. In other words, your spit contains far more nitrites than anything you could ever eat.

When it comes to food, vegetables are the primary source of nitrites. On average, about 93% of nitrites we get from food come from vegetables. It may shock you to learn that one serving of arugula, two servings of butter lettuce, and four servings of celery or beets all have more nitrite than 467 hot dogs. (2) And your own saliva has more nitrites than all of them! So before you eliminate cured meats from your diet, you might want to address your celery intake. And try not to swallow so frequently.

All humor aside, there’s no reason to fear nitrites in your food, or saliva. Recent evidence suggests that nitrites are beneficial for immune and cardiovascular function; they are being studied as a potential treatment for hypertension, heart attacks, sickle cell and circulatory disorders. Even if nitrites were harmful, cured meats are not a significant source, as the USDA only allows 120 parts per million in hot dogs and bacon. Also, during the curing process, most of the nitrite forms nitric oxide, which binds to iron and gives hot dogs and bacon their characteristic pink color. Afterwards, the amount of nitrite left is only about 10 parts per million.

Sodium intake is only weakly correltated with blood pressure:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/03/opini ... d=all&_r=0

And the whole "cancer" thing is based on epidimiological studies that are really only fit for forming hypotheses (to be validated in proper trials), rather than condemning one food stuff or another. There are many confounding factors: people who ignore the conventional advice and continue eating red meat and bacon tend to be the same people that reject the conventional advice about exercise, drinking and smoking too.
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/will-eat ... z2AbyJyx9s
http://garytaubes.com/2012/03/science-p ... -and-meat/

phoenix · Oct 28, 2012

you can listen to one of the leading researchers in the field telling you that carbohydrates increase cholesterol, not saturated fats:
http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2012/04/ ... t-depends/

the paper that he discusses had this conclusion:

Taken together with previous observations, these findings suggest that, at least in the context of a lower CHO high beef protein diet, HSF intake may increase CVD risk by metabolic processes that involve apoCIII

Would there be similar adverse effects with bacon and cheese that he found with lean beef and cheese?
Who knows, his future research will be looking into differing protein/fat combinations.
This is an account of the same research from the institute in which Krauss works and did the research.
I would think, though of course can't be certain that he approved the boxed conclusions/recommendations.

http://ctsi.ucsf.edu/news/about-ctsi/li ... rt-disease

borofergie · Oct 28, 2012

Let's be absolutely clear about this: I am a T2 diabetic for the rest of my life because I followed the "standard" advice of eating "healthy carbs" and avoiding "dangerous fats".

We evolved to eat animals people, not refined carbohydrates.

borofergie · Oct 28, 2012

phoenix said:
Would there be similar adverse effects with bacon and cheese that he found with lean beef and cheese?
Who knows, his future research will be looking into differing protein/fat combinations.
This is an account of the same research from the institute in which Krauss works and did the research.
I would think, though of course can't be certain that he approved the boxed conclusions/recommendations.

http://ctsi.ucsf.edu/news/about-ctsi/li ... rt-disease

Probably - I think it's very interesting. Dairy is not part of our evolutionary diet, even though it seems to get a free pass by many in the community (I've guilty of leaning on cream in the past).

The link you posted previously to Guyenet's blog about the effects of dairy also suggests some weak influence.

The diet that Krauss used for the "beef and cheese study" was on about the same level as the "bacon and cheese mug", be interesting to see if anyone could reproduce the results with a more realistic diet.

Personally, I think we should get our fat from dead animals rather than something used to feed baby cows.

GraceK · Oct 28, 2012

ladybird64 said:
What I want to know is, is this how BF spends his spare time? Is this a self made masterpiece BF, Hmmm?

I could probably manage a few strips of the bacon grilled to a crisp and some of the cheese but not a lot. Nothing to do with the rights and wrongs of a higher fat diet, I just don't like fried food very much!

That's the whole point though ... no-one could eat the whole lot ... unless they were the Hulk. When I say I eat LCHF diet people think I'm gorging myself on protein and fat, but I'm not, I probably eat less than the average person but because I'm not eating low fat this and low fat that, I'm satisfied with less protein too.

Defren · Oct 28, 2012

GraceK said:
ladybird64 said:

What I want to know is, is this how BF spends his spare time? Is this a self made masterpiece BF, Hmmm?

I could probably manage a few strips of the bacon grilled to a crisp and some of the cheese but not a lot. Nothing to do with the rights and wrongs of a higher fat diet, I just don't like fried food very much!

Click to expand...

That's the whole point though ... no-one could eat the whole lot ... unless they were the Hulk. When I say I eat LCHF diet people think I'm gorging myself on protein and fat, but I'm not, I probably eat less than the average person but because I'm not eating low fat this and low fat that, I'm satisfied with less protein too.

When there was all the hoo-haa about the Atkins diet there was research done for years afterwards, trying to find out why it worked. The conclusion was that people were eating unlimited protein. Protein fills you up better than fat or carbs, so it worked out, because they ate as much protein as they did, their calorific intake was actually less than a low fat diet. We can only eat so much protein before our bodies say "enough". In effect by eating X amount of protein (X = what our own needs are) we eat less of other things, hence why a LCHF diet works. Fat slows absorption, protein fills us, carbs are, in the main empty calories. So the LCHF diet basically keeps us full while providing a better range of the vitamins, minerals and other vital components our bodies need, while eliminating the **** (carbs).

GraceK · Oct 28, 2012

Defren said:
GraceK said:

ladybird64 said:

What I want to know is, is this how BF spends his spare time? Is this a self made masterpiece BF, Hmmm?

I could probably manage a few strips of the bacon grilled to a crisp and some of the cheese but not a lot. Nothing to do with the rights and wrongs of a higher fat diet, I just don't like fried food very much!

Click to expand...

That's the whole point though ... no-one could eat the whole lot ... unless they were the Hulk. When I say I eat LCHF diet people think I'm gorging myself on protein and fat, but I'm not, I probably eat less than the average person but because I'm not eating low fat this and low fat that, I'm satisfied with less protein too.

Click to expand...

When there was all the hoo-haa about the Atkins diet there was research done for years afterwards, trying to find out why it worked. The conclusion was that people were eating unlimited protein. Protein fills you up better than fat or carbs, so it worked out, because they ate as much protein as they did, their calorific intake was actually less than a low fat diet. We can only eat so much protein before our bodies say "enough". In effect by eating X amount of protein (X = what our own needs are) we eat less of other things, hence why a LCHF diet works. Fat slows absorption, protein fills us, carbs are, in the main empty calories. So the LCHF diet basically keeps us full while providing a better range of the vitamins, minerals and other vital components our bodies need, while eliminating the **** (carbs).

:thumbup:

ladybird64 · Oct 28, 2012

GraceK said:
ladybird64 said:

What I want to know is, is this how BF spends his spare time? Is this a self made masterpiece BF, Hmmm?

I could probably manage a few strips of the bacon grilled to a crisp and some of the cheese but not a lot. Nothing to do with the rights and wrongs of a higher fat diet, I just don't like fried food very much!

Click to expand...

That's the whole point though ... no-one could eat the whole lot ... unless they were the Hulk. When I say I eat LCHF diet people think I'm gorging myself on protein and fat, but I'm not, I probably eat less than the average person but because I'm not eating low fat this and low fat that, I'm satisfied with less protein too.

Grace..I do realise the point that was being made, I was just having a little light hearted post. I know enough people on here who eat LCHF to know what and how they eat and they know I know it. ( :eh: ) Sunday gentle humour, that's all. :wink:

GraceK · Oct 28, 2012

ladybird64 said:
GraceK said:

ladybird64 said:

What I want to know is, is this how BF spends his spare time? Is this a self made masterpiece BF, Hmmm?

I could probably manage a few strips of the bacon grilled to a crisp and some of the cheese but not a lot. Nothing to do with the rights and wrongs of a higher fat diet, I just don't like fried food very much!

Click to expand...

That's the whole point though ... no-one could eat the whole lot ... unless they were the Hulk. When I say I eat LCHF diet people think I'm gorging myself on protein and fat, but I'm not, I probably eat less than the average person but because I'm not eating low fat this and low fat that, I'm satisfied with less protein too.

Click to expand...

Grace..I do realise the point that was being made, I was just having a little light hearted post. I know enough people on here who eat LCHF to know what and how they eat and they know I know it. ( :eh: ) Sunday gentle humour, that's all. :wink:

Sorry ... maybe it was the absence of emoticons and the exclamation mark after your last sentence ... the light heartedness of your comment didn't come across to me.

Sid Bonkers · Oct 29, 2012

Defren said:
Ireneo Chipukunya said:

Though pleasing on the eye,way too much saturated fat in there and in my view a definite recipe for more health troubles! I wouldn't to touch it under any circumstances, not even with a ten-foot pole!

Click to expand...

The old views that sat fat is bad for us, is being eroded on an almost daily basis.

That is purely your opinion Defren, current thinking is that you should not eat too much of it in your diet, so please dont assume that because you chose to disregard that advice that others agree with your beliefs.

Superchip · Oct 29, 2012

Advice is just somebody else's opinion, do what YOU think is right, it is just as valid as the idiots who gave you thalidomide and statins.

borofergie · Oct 29, 2012

Sid Bonkers said:
That is purely your opinion Defren, current thinking is that you should not eat too much of it in your diet, so please dont assume that because you chose to disregard that advice that others agree with your beliefs.

It's not an opinion, it's based on the sum of scientific knowledge on saturated fat:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20071648

A meta-analysis of prospective epidemiologic studies showed that there is no significant evidence for concluding that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of CHD or CVD. More data are needed to elucidate whether CVD risks are likely to be influenced by the specific nutrients used to replace saturated fat.

Saturated fat was only ever implicated because it was a necessary step in the defunct "diet-heart" hypothesis:

Stephan Guyenet said:
1. Dietary saturated fat increases blood cholesterol
2. Elevated blood cholesterol increases the risk of having a heart attack
3. Therefore, dietary saturated fat increases the risk of having a heart attack

But (1) has effectively been proved to be wrong. Apart from in very short term trials, saturated fat intake is not associated with an increase in blood cholesterol, and even when it does, the rise in LDL-C is usually matched with HDL-C (so it's a wash).
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.co.uk ... rease.html

borofergie · Oct 29, 2012

Sid Bonkers said:
That is purely your opinion Defren, current thinking is that you should not eat too much of it in your diet, so please dont assume that because you chose to disregard that advice that others agree with your beliefs.

And if you don't believe me, you don't believe Def, and you don't believe a meta study into saturated fat, then how about one of the leading atherosclerosis researchers, Dr Ronald Krauss:

Particularly given the differential effects of dietary saturated fats and carbohydrates on concentrations of larger and smaller LDL particles, respectively, dietary efforts to improve the increasing burden of CVD risk associated with atherogenic dyslipidemia should primarily emphasize the limitation of refined carbohydrate intakes and a reduction in excess adiposity.

So, in his esteemed opinion, it's carbs that cause atherosclerosis, not saturated fat.

GraceK · Oct 29, 2012

Superchip said:
Advice is just somebody else's opinion, do what YOU think is right, it is just as valid as the idiots who gave you thalidomide and statins.

Can't argue with that viewpoint at all Chip

The more I read some people's reactions whenever the saturated fat and low carb issues come up, the more aware I am that people really do fear fat in their diet and associate eating fat with becoming fat. They consider everything bad that eating fat might be doing to them, yet they don't seem to consider what the LACK of fat in their diet might be doing to them.

I've not come across anyone on the forum commanding that everyone must eat fat or they must low carb. What I see is people sharing THEIR OPINIONS, offering THEIR EXPERIENCES, offering THEIR RESEARCH about various eating regimes ... and I thought that's what forums where all about.

Superchip · Oct 29, 2012

Well said Borofergie! Down with the Naysayers !

Eat proper food, not what the NHS advise, and the food manufaturers turn out in their junk factories !

Low fat = PROFIT and lots of it !

Blessed are the fat makers ( copyright Dillinger )

TTFN mine's a lard sandwich ( without the bread ! ) with a very large Vodka

Hic and burp ! Roy Hiya Grace.....

GraceK · Oct 29, 2012

Superchip said:
Well said Borofergie! Down with the Naysayers !

Eat proper food, not what the NHS advise, and the food manufaturers turn out in their junk factories !

Low fat = PROFIT and lots of it !

Blessed are the fat makers ( copyright Dillinger )

TTFN mine's a lard sandwich ( without the bread ! ) with a very large Vodka

Hic and burp ! Roy Hiya Grace.....

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Sid Bonkers · Oct 29, 2012

@ borofergie. Funny how the analysis of medical studies that phoenix posted a couple of weeks ago stated a different outcome isnt it?

As for any doctor who aligns himself with Gary Taubes I will not be taking any advice from him, no, rather I will take advice from the leading cardiologists and the rest of the medical profession who advice caution in the amount of sat fat we eat.

When your mavericks have managed to produce the evidence that would be needed to change current thinking I may start to believe them, until that time I will stick with best advice.

xyzzy · Oct 29, 2012

I had real problems with a 5 a day starchy carbohydrate diet. It gave me T2, put me of statins, gave me horrendously high blood pressure and caused me to put on weight. Now I'm on a low carb high fat diet my T2 is totally under control, I'm off statins with the docs consent, my blood pressure is on the very healthy side of average and I've lost 15 years worth of weight gain in 9 months.

The science between increased risks and saturated fats simply doesn't exist and many scientists have been saying that for years. A lot of the studies that show saturated fats to be bad are where they haven't bothered to separate saturated fats away from dangerous trans fats.

Look at that recent announced termination of the AHEAD trial. 11 years of a $200m study trying to show that the regime we are all generally recommend to follow (low fat high carb plus exercise) will reduce death rates proved they do nothing of the sort. There was no difference found between those doing a low fat regime at all in fact it may be the case that death rate ended up higher on those low fat regimes.

I will be continuing with the "trial" that works for me thanks.

lucylocket61 · Oct 29, 2012

It does say, on the Insulin Resistance pages on this website:

Diets high in saturated fats, trans-fats, refined carbohydrates and processed foods have been closely linked with chronic inflammation disorders and insulin resistance.

(my bolding)

so maybe high amount of saturated fats are a problem really.

Though I dont know what constitutes a high level. Does anyone know that figure?

borofergie · Oct 29, 2012

Sid Bonkers said:
@ borofergie. Funny how the analysis of medical studies that phoenix posted a couple of weeks ago stated a different outcome isnt it?

It didn't. The Krauss link is the one that she posted. If you read towards the bottom of the interview, he talks about some recent research where he managed to get a cholesterol rise by feeding patients only lean beef and cheese, which is interesting, but not practical. The fact that a beef+cheese diet is the only way that they've managed to implicate fat intake with cholesterol should tell you just how clinically relevant this data is. (Don't base your diet entirely arounf cheese filled bacon mugs kids).

The other link that phoenix posted wasn't a "meta-review" but an opinion piece from the proceedings of a conference, which more or less agrees with the points I raised above: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3138219/

Sid Bonkers said:
As for any doctor who aligns himself with Gary Taubes I will not be taking any advice from him, no, rather I will take advice from the leading cardiologists and the rest of the medical profession who advice caution in the amount of sat fat we eat.

I don't think Krauss aligns himself with Gary Taubes, what makes you say that?
Guyenet explicitly does not align himself with Taubes, in fact it's probably fair to say that he's his most vocal critic.

Sid Bonkers said:
When your mavericks have managed to produce the evidence that would be needed to change current thinking I may start to believe them, until that time I will stick with best advice.

I don't think that these guys are "mavericks": http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20071648

I produced the scientific evidence (or at least Guyenet and Krauss did) that shows that saturated fat is not associated with either CVD or increased LDL-C. If you have some evidence to the contrary you should present it, otherwise it's just your opinion, and as you noted above, that's not really worth very much.

Cheese filled bacon mug

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