Cheese filled bacon mug

borofergie said:

I don't think that these guys are "mavericks": http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20071648

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Yeah those mavericks at The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition really don't know a thing do they. Charlatans the lot of them :lol:

The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (AJCN) is the most highly rated peer-reviewed journal in ISI's nutrition and dietetics category and publishes the latest worldwide basic and clinical studies relevant to human nutrition in topics such as obesity, vitamins and minerals, nutrition and disease, and energy metabolism. The AJCN was selected by the Special Libraries Association (SLA) as one of the top 100 most influential journals in Biology and Medicine over the last 100 years.

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:wave:

Hi everybody!

I think that it's important to remember that the particular meta analysis was
a) only of epidemiologic studies, it doesn't here discuss the other evidence.
b) It was not without it's critics, (also not mavericks) published within the journal
see the links to comments
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20071648

I don't think that most researchers claim that all fat is bad, eat a low fat diet with as little sat fat as possible but nor are they waving a green flag for unfettered consumption.

They certainly they don't advocate swapping fat for refined carbohydrates but many feel that there is a benefit in replacing some saturated fat with other fats.
The piece written by the authors of the meta-analysis to accompany the paper discusses this and looks at the other types of evidence and of the influence fats may have on insulin sensitivity and blood pressure .They also look at the variation in response to saturated fats between individuals** (YMMV!)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2824150/

I'm not going to quote from the article. I feel that it needs to be read as a whole. As each section is a summary of the evidence, It would be extremely easy to take statements out of context to 'prove' one point or another .

** I read only today an experiment which showed different effects of a higher fat diet on people who were carriers of a certain gene. All of the groups had increases in LDL but those who carried the gene also had big increases in HDL. The difference wasn't that great in men but in females there was a far greater difference between the increase in HDL in those who had the gene and those who hadn't. Lost it now; it was fairly recent.

borofergie said:

So I think that we can agree that we've come along way from the "saturated fat is bad for you" view that Sid is trying to promote.

.

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Errr, I'm not tyring to promote anything Stephen, just saying that Id rather trust my cardiologist than Taubes thats all. All I did was offer my opinion on something that was said, if anyone is trying to promote anything here its certainly not me

borofergie said:

But (1) has effectively been proved to be wrong. Apart from in very short term trials, saturated fat intake is not associated with an increase in blood cholesterol, and even when it does, the rise in LDL-C is usually matched with HDL-C (so it's a wash).
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.co.uk ... rease.html

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We all know the problem is we have been indoctrinated for years that low fat is good. It's only if you delve deeper you find that mantra was never backed by science, it was an idea plucked out the air by Ancel Keys, and run with by firstly the USA then other countries including the UK. Publicly debuncking that claim would create merry hell within the food industry. Millions are made from low fat foodstuffs that I bet we all filled our trolly with at one time. It takes looking for where the real science is, that your realize the fat is bad mantra has no scientific basis. I know had I not become diabetic and found this forum, I would not know the actual facts I do now. People here who I talk to think I am crazy to eat the way I do, or at least they did. I didn't say anything, but told them to research sat fat themselves. Some of my friends have been truly shocked by what they have found. If you want to know the real story behind the headlines, you have to go and look for it. Once you do, it suddenly becomes quite apparent why T2 diabetes is so prevalent, and it's nothing to do with obesity, more obesity is a symptom of diabetes.

borofergie said:

If I'd blindly followed my HCP's advice to eat a HFLC diet, I'd be 310lbs with chronically high BG readings (which I wouldn't know about, because he told me not to test them). Blind faith in anyone or anything will get you killed.

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err I think you mean that the other way round Stephen don't you mean HCLF?

Sid Bonkers said:

borofergie said:

So I think that we can agree that we've come along way from the "saturated fat is bad for you" view that Sid is trying to promote.

.

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Errr, I'm not tyring to promote anything Stephen, just saying that Id rather trust my cardiologist than Taubes thats all. All I did was offer my opinion on something that was said, if anyone is trying to promote anything here its certainly not me

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Ding ding!!! Round three! :wink:

lucylocket61 said:

It does say, on the Insulin Resistance pages on this website:

Diets high in saturated fats, trans-fats, refined carbohydrates and processed foods have been closely linked with chronic inflammation disorders and insulin resistance.

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(my bolding)

so maybe high amount of saturated fats are a problem really.

Though I dont know what constitutes a high level. Does anyone know that figure?

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I did find this website about the Inflammation Factor. "It is a vital part of a healthy immune response".
http://inflammationfactor.com/

They also say that many foods contain a combination of inflammatory producing and inflammatory reducing properties.

http://inflammationfactor.com/diet-and-inflammation/


There is also an IR rating for foods on this site and this explains the formula and what is taken into account when deciding.

http://inflammationfactor.com/the-if-rating-formula/

borofergie said:

Of course you should trust your cardiologist, I'd just like you to be aware of the total lack of scientific evidence that underlies his advice that your should eat a diet "full of healthy wholegrains" and free of "saturated fat".

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More of the usual propaganda Stephen, that is not the advice I get from my cardiologist at all, no one has ever told me to "eat a diet "full of healthy wholegrains" and free of "saturated fat" " its never happened except apparently in your imagination, I think I am in a better position to know what I have been told by my cardiologist than you.

As fore mentioning Taubes, its all interlinked, you chose to accept what a few mainly unqualified people say is the truth, I chose to believe what my doctor, cardiologist and an overwhelming percentage of the medical profession say.

I chose to believe what my doctor, cardiologist and an overwhelming percentage of the medical profession say.

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I believe it is that sort of thinking which let to huge amount of women dyeing in childbirth due to doctors ignoring their peers who recommended handwashing, , and huge amount of people suffering with the wrong treatment for stomach ulcers whilst the doctors who discovered it was caused by bacteria were howled down by their contemporaries for decades.

Disclaimer: Although I have quoted Sid, this is a general comment based on his post, not personal.

Look at this; 4 pages on a cheese filled bacon mug!

The medical profession like many other professions is a hierarchical pyramid shaped organisation with authority increasing as you move up. As such it is incredibly conservative; you don't spend 30 years to become a senior consultant to say 'all that stuff I've been taught, learning, teaching and practising is a bunch or rubbish, let's start again'.

The people at the bottom of that structure, by the way, the one's with least authority are the patients; i.e us, so information coming from the patients is at best 'anecdotal' and in the ordinary course of events absolute nonsense; no doctor worth their exams is going to listen to us monkeys.

There are countless examples of this (in general practice) and not least of which on here where visiting doctors invariably stay for 10 posts before flouncing off in a huff because these 'half-wit' patients have discovered google and think they know everything.

This is the world we live in; if we want to ensure our health we have to take control of it.

Best

Dillinger

Sid said:

I chose to believe what my doctor, cardiologist and an overwhelming percentage of the medical profession say.

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I chose to believe what my brake test centre, mechanic and an overwhelming percentage of the motoring industry say.

Costs me a bloody forune, but I'm too lazy to learn how to validate/verify what they suggest... :yawn:

Dillinger said:

This is the world we live in; if we want to ensure our health we have to take control of it.

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:clap:

lucylocket61 said:

I chose to believe what my doctor, cardiologist and an overwhelming percentage of the medical profession say.

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I believe it is that sort of thinking which let to huge amount of women dyeing in childbirth due to doctors ignoring their peers who recommended handwashing, , and huge amount of people suffering with the wrong treatment for stomach ulcers whilst the doctors who discovered it was caused by bacteria were howled down by their contemporaries for decades.

Disclaimer: Although I have quoted Sid, this is a general comment based on his post, not personal.

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I once worked for a GP many years ago who's probably deceased now. His surgery was filthy because he wouldn't pay for a cleaner. And when I say filthy I mean so filthy that your feet stuck to the old lino on the floor and you'd be terrified to turn the door handle because it was always sticky and the place absolutely stank of 'oldness'. The place hadn't been cleaned in DECADES and as it was in a run down area, he got paid more for taking a surgery in that area. He didn't have chairs, he had wooden benches. Everything in the place hadn't been touched since at least the 1930's and I worked there in the 70's. He wore a white face mask over his mouth, never looked at his patients and already had the prescription written out before the patient even sat down and started to speak.

How he got away with it I will never know to this day, but he did. He was also well known for giving appointments to pharmaceutical sales reps who plied him with bottles of spirits, free holidays etc. I was doing some filing one day and in the bottom drawer of his filing cabinet I came across a pair of his dirty underpants! That was the day I walked out. I needed the money but not that much.

Always remember that doctors, like everyone else, are human and they don't all live by the same advice they give their patients and some of them have the filthiest of habits.

Hello Grace, Roy here, good post.

The old saying that you can take a horse to water etc applies here for the "blinkered" few, they know who they are !
reference your quote.

I certainly remember those days of filth in the so-called surgery ! My mum wouldn't take us there unless we were at deaths door, quite common in those days. My local surgery is quite clean but the gp's atitude is much the same.

I'm going to repeat what I have said many times on here that god knows he is NOT a gp !

The medical profession really do have to buck up and get proper training !

TTFN mines a scotch

Roy