Cinnamon, Blood Sugars, Oxalates and Kidney Stones.

Eating a more animal based diet is said to be the easiest way to reduce or avoid oxalates. I know that when I went carnivore I later suffered oxalate dumping which resulted in painful shoulder joints. It eventually passed and now my joints feel like they’re oiled. Just my experience with oxalates. Not interested in debating carnivore diet before anyone starts

Rachox said:

I’m not carnivore by any means but I do love meat and I appreciate that carnivore has it’s benefits. I hadn’t heard about the oxalates element, so thank you for posting. I have actually been eating more red meat and offal since the kidney stone episode as it resulted in a plummeting of my iron levels. So much to try to balance

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You should be aware that rapidly cutting oxalate from the diet can cause the body to start dumping what’s already there. As I say, it caused me some significant pain and reduced range of motion in my shoulder joints. For you this may counterintuitively worsen your arthritis. At least temporarily. For this reason it’s recommended to reduce your intake slowly. I am unsure of any implications with pre-existing joint issues or kidney stones, so extreme caution is advised.

I think I might need a urine test to see if I have this oxalate problem, a month or so ago I had a bladder infection and it was like passing chilli pips, a real burning sensation when I was peeing. It cleared up after a week taking antibiotics.

I have noticed recently that the urine bottle I use at nights has a calcium looking deposit on the sides.

Rachox said:

Thank you, I’m not jumping to reduce my oxalate intake rapidly anyway, as aside from the cinnamon and the odd couple of squares of dark chocolate I don’t think my oxalate intake is very high anyway!

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Yikes I have dark chocolate every day thinking I was doing good - as it is meant to be good for the heart with the oxidants in it ? and I was thinking about adding the odd glass of red wine for the same reason ...

Rachox said:

... to ease the symptoms of my arthritis ...

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Have you tried taking MSM for that?
I thought I just threw it out there...

My husband who has a longstanding oxalate kidney stone problem avoids strawberries because they provoke gravel and renal colic for him

Rachox said:

About a year after my type 2 diagnosis I started taking cinnamon supplements for two reasons. Firstly to help stabilise blood sugars and secondly to ease the symptoms of my arthritis, both characteristics which many agree are benefits of taking cinnamon.

Wind the clock forward to this year, and as some of you will have read I had a kidney stone a few months ago. I just received the results of the stone analysis and it was a calcium oxalate stone. It is recommended I eat a low oxalate diet now to reduce my risk of forming another stone. Whilst researching high oxalate foods I was puzzled as many of them were things I don’t like, spinach, soy products, rhubarb, beer and tea amongst others. Others are things I avoid as they are high carb such as certain fruit juices, wheat, bread, cereals, grapes and dried fruit.

Today carrying on my research I found than cinnamon is also high oxalate. Now I was never completely convinced that it did very much for my blood sugars and my arthritic pain is so up and down unpredictably that who knows if it helped, yet I never chose to stop it and it just became a habit.

So from today I’m stopping taking it. As far as my HbA1c is concerned, at 36 mmol/mol I have a good margin to maintain a non diabetic number even if it does creep up a bit. As for my joint pain, as I said it’s unpredictable, but I’m prepared to take the hit to reduce my chances of another kidney stone, which was the most painful experience of my life

Just thought I’d jot my findings here in case anyone had had a similar experience or wanted to reconsider their cinnamon supplements.

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I can only relate your findings to strict low carb benefitted my no gallbladder stones. Healthier liver etc. My gallbladder was twisted in old adhesions from old surgeries. So it was removed because of its pain and vomiting not stones. Nor duct blocked by stones or calcium deposits. I had sludge or that was the first impression until surgeon opened me up. Even MRI interpretations can be vague.
Obviously your pain is from stones if they are obvious in a MRI designed for your kidneys. They show up white like plaque in your arteries in your heart.
Supplements are good when you need them. OK if they are water based ones which get flushed out when you have enough in your system already. The ones to worry about are those which you can overdose on which deposits themselves in the body not through the urine or sweat. From what I understand. Others may put it differently.
I honestly don't take any supplement unless I've weighed up its pros and cons. Every supplement has them. Like medication. Ingestion is controlled via metabolism hence they diabetes is a metabolism disorder.
What pros did cinnamon give to arthritis? My partner takes Glucosamine sulphate for joint health. It helps with joint damage pain. It doesn't stop arthritis nor stops it progressing just helps with pain from damaged joints.
I often thought low carb gave me chest pains and palpitations but it's now looking like levothyroxine was too high and painful GERD causing some chest pain. I guess too much fat increased my GERD symptoms which caused chest pains.
Look how different we are but still need a customised eating plan to keep healthy. Metformin is good for kidney health or so I read. So cinnamon must be your common denominator.
I haven't read anything regarding kidney stone prevention nor cinnamon. Oxalates are also digested in the gut but be aware of too fast lowering of high oxalates can give side affects too. So slow and steady. Don't shock your system @Rachox

Rachox said:

Thanks for your comprehensive reply @ickihun x
My kidney stone was removed at second attempt in September. I do seem to have a ‘stony history’! I had a gall bladder full of gravel removed in 2000 and would you believe a salivary duct stone when I was a teenager! It blocked my salivary duct so the side of my face swelled up whenever I tried to eat!
As I said in my OP I was never completely convinced of beneficial effects on cinnamon on my arthritis and yes I’ve tried glucosamine in the past with no benefit.
I am lowering but not going to eliminate all oxalates, not sure if that’s even possible, so if I do get a recurrence it may be further away than the predicted 5 years if I do nothing.

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I think you're wise. I know you are very practical so you'll get some more indepth replies than mine. Posters are great like that.

Rachox said:

About a year after my type 2 diagnosis I started taking cinnamon supplements for two reasons. Firstly to help stabilise blood sugars and secondly to ease the symptoms of my arthritis, both characteristics which many agree are benefits of taking cinnamon.

Wind the clock forward to this year, and as some of you will have read I had a kidney stone a few months ago. I just received the results of the stone analysis and it was a calcium oxalate stone. It is recommended I eat a low oxalate diet now to reduce my risk of forming another stone. Whilst researching high oxalate foods I was puzzled as many of them were things I don’t like, spinach, soy products, rhubarb, beer and tea amongst others. Others are things I avoid as they are high carb such as certain fruit juices, wheat, bread, cereals, grapes and dried fruit.

Today carrying on my research I found than cinnamon is also high oxalate. Now I was never completely convinced that it did very much for my blood sugars and my arthritic pain is so up and down unpredictably that who knows if it helped, yet I never chose to stop it and it just became a habit.

So from today I’m stopping taking it. As far as my HbA1c is concerned, at 36 mmol/mol I have a good margin to maintain a non diabetic number even if it does creep up a bit. As for my joint pain, as I said it’s unpredictable, but I’m prepared to take the hit to reduce my chances of another kidney stone, which was the most painful experience of my life

Just thought I’d jot my findings here in case anyone had had a similar experience or wanted to reconsider their cinnamon supplements.

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I'm sat here behind the computer for the first time to post here since I got out of hospital, actually. In about May I started having kidney problems, but the stone, or rather, fine grit I passed was too small to determine what sort of stone it was. Since oxalate stones are in the majority, I went from the assumption that that was what it was. The CT scan in May was clear, and that's when I started a carnivore diet to cut out all oxalates.

Guess it didn't work, because yesterday I passed a 2mm one, and there's a 4 mm one still in my right kidney. I actually got up early this morning to write thank you's to the out-of-hours GP and the team over at the hospital that put me on morphine for the night in spite of them having no beds due to covid (Two hospitals couldn't take me, the third couldn't do it either, really, but they had me sent over anyway), but then I saw your post. Going from the few facts I have: no oxalates since May, clear CT in May, I think it's not likely my stones are the common garden variety oxalate-calcium stones after all. (I hope this stone was big enough to properly test because I want to avoid getting this again at ALL costs!!!! Even if I have to quit salt or anything else! Never, ever again! Though I guess with a 4mm one still in there, I may not have much of a say in the matter...) But anyway, yours are O-C stones, and that makes things relatively easy. Turns out there's indeed a lot of oxalates in cinnamon, yeah, but also insane amounts in chocolate (especially extra dark), and tea. Spinach, certain nuts and such too. There's plenty of sites with high oxalate food lists, and a lot of them contradict one another, so I just went full carnivore to be on the safe side (HA!). https://www.nutritionadvance.com/high-oxalate-foods/ and https://oxalate.org/ might help. For a low oxalate diet you need to be at 50 mg or less a day, which is quite do-able as it turns out... And with going carnivore, my blood sugars have never been better (Hovering in the 4's and 5's. Though my bloods shot up when I was hurting, to 6,9). Only drawback now being, the high meat content diet might cause whatever kidney stones I do have, but I won't make any more dietary changes until I get my results back.But that shouldn't be a problem for you. Nix oxalates as much as possible and you should be fine. Also, if you do have them, make sure you have something with calcium (cream, cheese) to go with it. Then it binds in the stomach rather than in the kidneys and exits the painless way.

Good luck eh... And let's hope neither one of us'll have to go through it again!
Jo