Covid and Work, Covid Advice and General Chat

Judith is back in the office for at least a few weeks from tomorrow she is not happy about it at all especially as the office is in a hospital that though for a while has not had a patent with covid 19 now again has a covid 19 patient in the ICU she is not so worried for herself though at her age it is a concern it bringing home to me that worries her.

Tannith said:

I have just heard Nicola sturgeon say that indoor gatherings of more than 8 people from more than three different households are forbidden in Scotland. How come that does not apply to indoor classrooms?

Click to expand...

It may be the cynic in me rearing it's ugly head again but it could be that if she had children of her own to put at risk her attitude may hap be somewhat different.

Max68 said:

I'm not ashamed to admit I am getting more terrified by the minute, especially as Dr John Campbell has been doing more videos about schools around the world and if he is concerned so am I! By all accounts according to the stats infections amongst children are increasing "as the schools open". He also agreed with what I've been saying all along and that is Governments claims that schools offer little risk are based on the fact that the schools have been either only partially opened or closed. It's a pointless argument that Governments are using. It's a bit like saying your favourite football team hadn't lost any matches between March and June. Er it's because football was in lockdown so your team didn't play any matches, hardly a good guide for current form!!

I've a real decision to make. I've got a few grand in the bank and receive a couple of thousand every three months from an investment that's holed up until 2026. I could probably survive for 7-10 months depending on outgoings but capital will obviously dwindle without a wage which stays stable when working, but then you have a problem of getting an new job when that runs out. No idea what to do.

Click to expand...

Totally sympathise. Either way is a gamble whether its health or financial stability. My savings will last until spring if I'm frugal. I suppose I initially wasnt happy but then I told myself this was the proverbial rainy day anyone who is lucky enough to have savings talks about. What happens after that I dont know,if I have to live off lentils so be it! So far in life if in doubt I go by gut instinct and that's worked out pretty well.
It could be in the next few weeks what happens in Scotlands schools give people a better idea of what may happen here. The government may be forced to act like they did with A levels.
Certainly the general risk risk is very hard to assess. Most figures seem to be a few weeks out of date. Headlines are saying deaths are at lowest rate and infections are falling. Who knows? I've almost lost track of the daily list of incompetence of this government.! I've even read that the reason deaths are reducing is that all those that are most vulnerable are either dead or continuing to avoid contact with others!
I think the issues with schools opening are very real,so many medical experts cant be wrong.
The ripples are enormous from school staff at all levels to extended families. Front line workers such as bus drivers may be affected by sudden influx of school childeren on public transport despite advice to use alternatives.
In the midst of all this everyone who was vulnerable before remains just as vulnerable.
So what can you do?
Work. Contact about risk assessment. If employer is doing job it should look at where your highest risks are and where these can be lessened. This may be as they have already suggested. It may be that it needs to be reduced even further with a different role within school or in theory working from home.
So work is a waiting game where also have to go through processes to prove/ lessen risk. Worse case scenario throw yourself on mercy of GP and get signed off with stress. Certainly not ideal but buys you time to see how situation develops without losing your job.
You could resign and live off savings. Again not ideal,but if feasible would give you peace of mind. Job situation in the future is uncertain but there are few certainties in life anyway.
Personally I have been listening to the experts since February. If I had continued to work in April in my particular workplace ( and they would probably not even questioned my choice to do so) I'm pretty sure i wouldnt be sat here typing this now. But then i am unlucky in that i have an unpleasant and unscrupulous employer.
Certainly all you can do over the next few weeks is keep all your options open. Sometimes it can even help to write down a list of pros and cons to clarify situation.

bulkbiker said:

Fascinating twitter thread on masks and their ineffectiveness in surgical settings!

https://twitter.com/ClimateDepot/status/1293876034098671617

Click to expand...

Wow, that's an eye opener! It does leave me with the question of if this is truly the case, why are masks mandatory in certain environments and why has the NHS/medical profession continued to use masks? Go figure (shrugs shoulders)

Firstly I am a mum of 3 secondary school kids all of whom have lost a term of education in spite of the efforts of the school to send them lessons remotely and our parental efforts to school them in a nice middle class home where they had access to laptops, study space and WiFi. Its not easy and it makes for an inferior learning and social experience. Of course if I thought they were in danger or their teachers were in danger of mass illness and/ deaths then all of this would be a necessary sacrifice. But evidence from actual schools in countries where the schools operated normally as opposed to merely assuming that kids are super spreaders or theoretically could be super spreaders, is safetyism gone mad. Please don't say that is it lives versus livelihoods. If you've seen a post industrial Northern town that's lost its economic heart you will know that is a false dichotomy.
We cannot make it completely safe for all teachers but we can mitigate the risk for the tiny minority that need it surely?
Remember that the hypothetical models generated by Ferguson got it wrong by a huge magnitude including in Sweden where no schools got locked down so why base your fear and anxiety on theories about transmission when there is now real data?
EVIDENCE SUMMARY OF PAEDIATRIC COVID-19 LITERATURE
Alison Boast, Alasdair Munro + Henry Goldstein


Here we present the top 10 papers from each category (Paediatric clinical cases, Epidemiology and transmission, and Neonates). At the top is an Executive summary followed by all New and noteworthy studies.

Executive Summary (Updated 17th July) by Dr Munroe (Royal College of Pediatricians & Child Health)

Epidemiology
Around the world, children make up a minority of confirmed cases of COVID-19, usually contributing to between 1 – 5% of total case numbers. This almost certainly represents some undercounting of children in total case numbers as many countries have focussed on testing the most unwell, but in some populations which undertook widespread population testing, children still account for very low case numbers. Countries which have produced representative population seroprevalence studies (including Switzerland, Spain and Italy) have found proportionately far fewer children have been infected than adults (young children <10 years in particular).

More detailed information has emerged into childhood severity of COVID-19. A large number of children may be asymptomatic, but the true proportion is unknown. Critical illness is very rare (~1%). In data from China, the USA and Europe, infants and older adolescents appear most likely to be hospitalised and to suffer from more severe disease. Deaths in children remain extremely rare from COVID-19.

Transmission
Precise details regarding paediatric transmission are still being ascertained, however important trends are emerging. Low case numbers in children suggest a more limited role than was initially feared. Contact tracing data from Asia, the USA, Europe and Israel have all demonstrated a significantly lower attack rate in children than adults, including testing of asymptomatic household contacts on both PCR and serology. Coupled with low case numbers would suggest that children are less likely to acquire the disease. The role of children in passing the disease to others is unknown, in particular given unknown numbers of asymptomatic cases. Notably, the China/WHO joint commission could not recall episodes during contact tracing where transmission occurred from a child to an adult. Studies of multiple family clusters have revealed children were unlikely to be the index case, in Guangzhou, China, Israel, the USA, Switzerland and internationally. Limited data on positive cases in schools have not demonstrated significant transmission, except within adolescent populations. Studies of younger children in schools have found low rates of transmission, but with very low case numbers.

Several studies have now shown that SARS-CoV-2 can be detected by PCR in the stool of affected children for several weeks after symptoms have resolved. Studies have confirmed there can also be live virus found in the stool of infected individuals. How much virus is present, and the extent to which faecal-oral transmission may be possible is yet to be confirmed.

KELI said:

Wow, that's an eye opener! It does leave me with the question of if this is truly the case, why are masks mandatory in certain environments and why has the NHS/medical profession continued to use masks? Go figure (shrugs shoulders)

Click to expand...

This applied to surgery where bacteria might affect a wound, not about breathing a virus. Also some of the references only applied to non scrubbed people in the theatre.

In terms of schools reopening:
Covid-19 could be linked to the onset of type 1 diabetes in children, a study has suggested, after finding some hospitals saw twice as many young patients with the condition compared to normal.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...n-study-imperial-college-london-a9675106.html
Dr Logan added: “It appears that children are at low risk of developing serious cases of Covid-19.

“However, we do need to consider potential health complications following exposure to the virus in children.”

JohnEGreen said:

It may be the cynic in me rearing it's ugly head again but it could be that if she had children of her own to put at risk her attitude may hap be somewhat different.

Click to expand...

Estimated percentage testing positive for the coronavirus (COVID-19) on a swab test, by sex, age bands and ethnic groups, England, 26 April to 27 June 2020
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...y-age-sex-and-ethnicity-over-the-study-period

Coronavirus (COVID-19) infections in the community in England: July 2020

Infection rates by age, sex and ethnicity over the study period
There is a bar chart but I have been unable to copy it. Note study was done when schools were mostly closed
Figure 1: There is no evidence of differences in COVID-19 infection rates over the study period by sex and age bands, and only limited evidence of differences by ethnic groups

JohnEGreen said:

Judith is back in the office for at least a few weeks from tomorrow she is not happy about it at all especially as the office is in a hospital that though for a while has not had a patent with covid 19 now again has a covid 19 patient in the ICU she is not so worried for herself though at her age it is a concern it bringing home to me that worries her.

Click to expand...

As schools in the US begin to reopen, teachers and parents are still divided on whether it is safe enough to go back.

In the state of Arizona, a public school district has been forced to cancel plans to restart in-person classes, after more than 100 teachers called in sick to protest against unsafe working conditions during the pandemic.

Kelley Fisher, who teaches kindergarten, has been leading the protests. "I probably will resign," she told BBC OS on World Service radio.

"I love the classroom, I love being face to face with my students, and you are probably not going to find a teacher that would say they love teaching online.

"But if I were told to go back to school, where our numbers are, I would probably have to make the very tough decision to at least sit out the rest of this school year." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-53817280

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...covid-19-english-schools-virus-safe-reopening

They're all coming out of the woodwork now though..

bulkbiker said:

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...covid-19-english-schools-virus-safe-reopening

They're all coming out of the woodwork now though..

Click to expand...

But now those who were dismissing the early skeptics as conspiracy theorists will be talking about government coverups whose M.O. is to make the schools appear safe when they are not. Not referring to anyone on here necessarily, just the wider pro-lockdown public.

Mr_Pot said:

If you are indeed pre-diabetic then I am not sure you are even classed as having an illness, certainly not a disability. So your risk assessment would be the same as anyone without diabetes.

Click to expand...

I was diagnosed Diabetic two years ago which work were aware of. My last test was at pre-D levels - and I’ve not had one this year, so am hoping I’m still pre-D or lower.

Thanks to others who have replied. Been in this afternoon and all looks as OK as can be. Although I think I’ll refrain from using the shared phone!

Jim Lahey said:

But now those who were dismissing the early skeptics as conspiracy theorists will be talking about government coverups whose M.O. is to make the schools appear safe when they are not. Not referring to anyone on here necessarily, just the wider pro-lockdown public.

Click to expand...

How is it conspiracy to ask for the same protection inside school gates that there is outside of them?

Two of the three main pieces of advice are being breached in schools without justification or reason.

• cover face - wear a face covering over your nose and mouth in enclosed spaces
• make space - stay at least a metre away from people not in your household

If it’s not safe in the supermarket, drs, train etc etc without distancing and or masks then how do the school gates block the viral particles?

Which is it? It cannot both be safe and unsafe to be cheek to jowl with 150 people a day an hour at a time. A teen cannot both be a risk in spreading the disease and simultaneously not a risk depending on the time of day And if it’s a school room or doctors surgery or supermarket aisle

The pictures of classrooms in the media are massively misleading in the spacing shown. The studies were done whilst schools were shut. The children and teens live with people more susceptible than they are generally.

I dare say that if Boris Johnson's children where of school age and attending a state school very unlikely I know would he be so intent on all children back to school in September is seems the majority of the people in parliament pushing so hard for it have the least to loose if it goes wrong.

JohnEGreen said:

It may be the cynic in me rearing it's ugly head again but it could be that if she had children of her own to put at risk her attitude may hap be somewhat different.

Click to expand...

Well Boris has children galore (ahem) but he's doing the same so I think that's a little unfair.

Max68 said:

To be fair they are using claims by Public Health England (PHE) of which the Government is by all accounts declaring as unfit for purpose thus disbanding!

Re schools if you skewed it on it's head the decisions about schools would more than likely be different. If Covid was running along the lines of the Spanish Flu of 1918 and it was young people and children getting seriously ill and dying and the older population not being particularly affected I very much doubt they would be throwing the school doors open in September!

Click to expand...

Well of course they wouldn't as that would be stupid.. however there are very few 70+ y.o. teachers still active so there shouldn't really be a problem...

Yellredder said:

I was diagnosed Diabetic two years ago which work were aware of. My last test was at pre-D levels - and I’ve not had one this year, so am hoping I’m still pre-D or lower.

Thanks to others who have replied. Been in this afternoon and all looks as OK as can be. Although I think I’ll refrain from using the shared phone!

Click to expand...

Most of us in here continue to refer to ourselves as diabetic even if latest hb1ac is prediabetic or even normal. The fundamental problem hasn’t gone away, we just have it under control with diet or exercise or medication or a mix of those. Some choose to use in remission or reversed to identify this excellent control.