Covid and Work, Covid Advice and General Chat

Fairygodmother · Sep 13, 2020

So much depends on the people with power, the managers. A bad one’s very hard to deal with right now.
Our older daughter came this morning, double masked, to deliver a birthday present for a week’s time.
If she were fifteen years older she’d retire now. She teaches secondary, and loves the teaching. But. Last week: no visors, temperature gauge or Sanitiser in the first aid room (she’s a first aider). Twins, pupils, who share a bedroom, one has tested positive and has been asked to isolate, the other is still allowed to come to school. Pupils told to stay outside the 2 metre marked space round the teacher’s desk, after break year 7s crowding round her desk and one has left a used mask on it. During breaks, until earlier last week, the divisions between bubbles not clearly delineated.
Luckily, as far as we know, our daughter hasn’t any underlying conditions, and she’s just into her 40s. A technician who has is allowed to stay outside the classroom as she’s 60 and overweight. I’m not sure how staff with underlying conditions are treated.
If our daughter encounters any repeated or other lacks in securing her workplace she’ll bring the Union in and she’s told the Senior Management Team she’ll do so.

Mr_Pot · Sep 13, 2020

ert said:
You're stating outdated advice in the media

I don't think I stated any advice, I asked @Max68 a question.

ert · Sep 13, 2020

Mr_Pot said:
At 52 you are not in the over 70's bracket, is your diabetes not well controlled or do you have some other underlying condition?

Suggesting only 'over 70's bracket' and 'uncontrolled diabetes' and 'another underlying condition' is what I meant by relying on advice from the media to make judgements. Sorry if that wasn't clear. What we should be asking is: do you have diabetes? If yes, you are vulnerable.

Mark in Spain · Sep 13, 2020

Picci said:
I’m following this whole thread very closely.

I’m a type 1 teaching assistant in a middle school. (Years 5 to 8.)

My head fought with staff all throughout the summer about mask wearing, basically refusing point blank.
I sent numerous emails saying how much more vulnerable I am and he still said no.
In the end I asked my diabetes consultant to write to him insisting he allowed me to wear a mask.
This was still a problem for my head, he phoned saying he needed to discuss it further.
He knew in May my intention of returning to work in September, under the condition I wear a mask.
He did not carry out a risk assessment until yesterday, breaching the Union’s advice.

Then at the last minute, he said masks were optional in corridors but MUST be removed in class rooms. (Due to the government’s last minute guidelines.)
Four staff, (all in the NEU,) decided to start as we meant to go on and wore our masks on teacher training day. We did not remove them, making a point.
The head didn’t bring the matter up, we believe he realised he couldn’t do anything.
All staff move around school and the children stay in the same classroom throughout the day.
The classes are small and poorly ventilated, (old building,) all classes have 32-34 children sitting shoulder to shoulder, the teacher and a TA.
It’s very difficult to stay 2m away, I’m unable to support the children and I am following the ‘2m guidelines’ stringently.
All the other TA’s are ignoring the guidelines, they sit right next to the children and there is no social distancing between staff.
I brought this up with he head and he sent an email asking staff to remember to the 2m rule. It’s not made any difference.
He asked me what the school is doing well, I had to think of something. I told him hand sanitizer was a small bonus but it’s cancelled out by everything else.
I’m mixing with almost 300 children throughout the day, hot seating with their year group bubbles.
Following my meting with him (my union rep supported me) I went into the school office to get the laminator and the bitchy office manager and business manager said if I was so “scared” they would pass the laminator through the window.
They then told me I want allowed in an empty classroom to laminate as it was not scheduled to be used or cleaned until Monday.
I told them I would wipe down everything I touched in the classroom.
On return to the office with the laminator, the office manager literally threw the wet wipes at me and told me to wipe the laminator down. I told her I already had, and she replied, “yes, but you had to carry it down the corridor.”
This was uncalled for and since it happened right after my risk assessment meeting (the business manager took notes,) I feel the conversation i had in the meeting room has been discussed with the office manager, therefore breaking confidentiality.

I have used the laminator previously and was not asked to clean it, nor are any of my colleagues. We are all touching photo copiers and door handles constantly, and we all must remember to clean out hands as much as possible. It’s impossible to keep ‘clean’ 100%.

I’m extremely anxious and feel I’m the only one who cares, other than my union members and rep.

I mentioned what the office staff had said to my friend/colleague (who is also my union rep.)

She immediately said that was a union matter and low level bullying which could escalate. I gave her a full and detailed account of what was said and how I felt and she emailed my head on my behalf and as union rep.

He won’t accept the email unless I have an informal conversation as per the grievance policy. I told him I was not going to discuss it informally without my union rep. He won’t do it and said if I want it resolving it must be done as per the grievance policy.

Due to my fragile state, anxiety and stress, I do not want to have to go over things again and again. My blood sugars are all over the place, every say I go to work and something else happens.

Sadly, I don’t have the “fight” in me to peruse this grievance informally so the office staff have “won”.
This is not me, I fight for my rights.....

I just want peace.

****** hell, I can’t believe how much I’ve written...... if nobody reads it I can wholeheartedly understand. It’s get it off my chest so I suppose it’s been of benefit.

I want to see my GP and attempt to be signed off for anxiety. I feel physically sick, I can feel my heart beating in my throat, I’m shaky and can’t sleep, focus or smile. I’m so disengaged.

Happy weekend.....

Post edited by moderator in line with forum rules on acceptable language

JRT · Sep 13, 2020

Fairygodmother said:
So much depends on the people with power, the managers. A bad one’s very hard to deal with right now.
Our older daughter came this morning, double masked, to deliver a birthday present for a week’s time.
If she were fifteen years older she’d retire now. She teaches secondary, and loves the teaching. But. Last week: no visors, temperature gauge or Sanitiser in the first aid room (she’s a first aider). Twins, pupils, who share a bedroom, one has tested positive and has been asked to isolate, the other is still allowed to come to school. Pupils told to stay outside the 2 metre marked space round the teacher’s desk, after break year 7s crowding round her desk and one has left a used mask on it. During breaks, until earlier last week, the divisions between bubbles not clearly delineated.
Luckily, as far as we know, our daughter hasn’t any underlying conditions, and she’s just into her 40s. A technician who has is allowed to stay outside the classroom as she’s 60 and overweight. I’m not sure how staff with underlying conditions are treated.
If our daughter encounters any repeated or other lacks in securing her workplace she’ll bring the Union in and she’s told the Senior Management Team she’ll do so.

The situation certainly seems to have speeded up. If the government are even considering asking people to self isolate the risk must be high.! It will be interesting to see who is on the new list. I think the worrying thing is you could have been at risk for weeks before official advice appears.
Some Unions are better than others. GMB seem very proactive. Unfortunately the Coronavirus workplace guidelines are just that,they are not law. You can end up with a lot of repetitive communication between yourself and the employer,proving your point is a laborious process. The issue of course is that whilst you are going through this process you either have to continue to work in that environment or find a way of removing yourself from it!
One thing I highly recommend, and Unions often do to is keeping a clear written record with date and time of any conversations you have with your employer and any bad practices you see.

Mark in Spain · Sep 13, 2020

Max68 said:
@Picci As others have said I would definitely speak to your GP and also get as much advice as possible from your Union. In fact if the routes between yourself and the school have become strained then ask the Union if they would speak with your Employers directly. From what you have said I don't think you have anything to lose by doing this and I think as soon as the word "Union" is mentioned employers quite often stand to attention and and start listening. Personally I think that's the route to go down but speak with your Union as that's what they are there for and it's what you pay a membership fee for!

In the meantime I would provide your own PPE if possible and protect yourself as much as possible, certainly if they aren't going to help in any way. Whilst the bar is set low for schools with regard to risk assessments the school cannot stop you from helping yourself to be safe. Again I don't know the full in and outs but speak with your Union.

I know what you are going through. It's tough indeed but I think it's just a case of saying "right if they aren't going to protect me then I will." They have a duty of care and again the Union will be able to advise.

There is a lot of either naivety, stupidity or arrogance in schools. As good as they have been to an extent to me I was still quite surprised when during my conversation with the Head the other day he asked me where the statistics showed that diabetics were at higher risk with regard to Covid? I just replied that there were too many studies to mention and to Google it!! They are so ridged in following the Governments flawed advice the can't seem to think for themselves and if Boris tells them to jump they will just ask how high! Sadly until a staff member or child become seriously unwell this won't change so until we are protected better by someone with a brain then we have to try and protect ourselves as much as possible.

I have just read your post and think you have serious grounds to stand your ground. people just dont get it. I am an estate agent in Spain and so not looking forward to going back to work at the start of next month. since lockdown I havent really headed out to much as I have done my best to avoid meeting others. I live in the middle of the mountains in a cherry farming valley with no neighbours (true self isolation which I love)Yet from that I will be going back to meeting clients which I so do not want to do. My clients will be English over in Spain who I am sorry to say do not seem to follow the rules while on their holidays. To be honest with you I could stay in the mountains at home forever but Money is money and without it, and without a spanish benefit I wont be able to live. Personally I will refuse to deal with anyone who do not wear a mask or use gloves. I will be pointing out to all clients that I am a type 1 and would appreciate their understanding. if any do not take kindly to this I will refuse to deal with then and if the boss of the company doesnt like it, well quite frankly I wont give a monkies to what he will think as I am scared of the virus. I know the statistics for Belgium and how many of us lost their lifes during their first spike. Its a frightening time for us all in our special club and honestly I think as we are high risk we should all be kept safe and not have to return to work yet. I have always thought I have one shot at the title with my life and want to be on this earth for many a year yet. why should we have to be forced back into working is really not on. Maybe a stand is needed and a movement started by us all. I want to return to work and I need to return to work. BUT ON OUR TERMS and to be kept as safe as we can be. Surely high risk (as we all are) need to remain on the government schemes in place until the time is right. who knows when that will be? at least until a cure is found and recieved by us all. Picci good luck and I hope your red tape boss comes to his senses

Mr_Pot · Sep 13, 2020

ert said:
What we should be asking is: do you have diabetes? If yes, you are vulnerable.

I think that is rather a generalisation. I am officially Type 2 Diabetic but I am not on any medication and my HbA1c has been in the upper 30's for the last 4 years since diagnosis. If I went for a blood test now, and my history was not known, I would be classed as not diabetic, so why am I vulnerable?

lucylocket61 · Sep 13, 2020

Mr_Pot said:
I think that is rather a generalisation. I am officially Type 2 Diabetic but I am not on any medication and my HbA1c has been in the upper 30's for the last 4 years since diagnosis. If I went for a blood test now, and my history was not known, I would be classed as not diabetic, so why am I vulnerable?

because your type 2 diabetes hasnt gone, it is in control. You are still diabetic. You still cant eat carbs in the same ways as a non diabetic can. Also, there is more to diabetes than good control. As yet we dont know how far good control goes when it comes to other health risks, as there are few of us with long term good control, so the pattern cannot be seen with any degree of assurance. It may not be enough for some health situation.

Things change. When I got covid-19 my control went, through no fault or cause of my own. Many report that when they have covid-19 they cant control their diabetes to non-diabetic levels. Therefore we become (hopefully temporarily) uncontrolled or less well controlled diabetics.

Also, we dont know how time affects us. We could lose the amount of control we have at any point.

Do you consider that remission is cure? In my view, we remain diabetics, regardless of how well our control is at any given time. When we are ill, our sugar levels rise. Its the way it is. Therefore our risk, as diabetic, is real.

ert · Sep 13, 2020

Mr_Pot said:
I think that is rather a generalisation. I am officially Type 2 Diabetic but I am not on any medication and my HbA1c has been in the upper 30's for the last 4 years since diagnosis. If I went for a blood test now, and my history was not known, I would be classed as not diabetic, so why am I vulnerable?

People with diabetes with COVID-19 are at a greater risk of worse prognosis and mortality. The scientists will have to understand the reasons for the worse outcomes for COVID-19 people with diabetes. The inter-relationship between diabetes and COVID-19 should trigger more research to understand the extent to which specific mechanisms of the virus (eg, its tropism for the pancreatic β-cell) might contribute to worsening of glycaemic control and, in some cases, to the striking development of diabetic ketoacidosis or hyperglycaemic hyperosmolar syndrome, and possibly the development of new-onset diabetes. Lancet, July, 2020. I will try to find the article. In plain English, stay safe until they know more (or until your medical team reclassifies you as non-diabetic.)

bulkbiker · Sep 13, 2020

lucylocket61 said:
You still cant eat carbs in the same ways as a non diabetic can.

So what? If you don't eat them in any quantity then not a problem..

MrsA2 · Sep 13, 2020

I read/heard somewhere lately (Aseem Malhotra podcast maybe? ) that diabetes doubles risk but uncontrolled diabetes makes it 3.5 times the risk.
Can't remember whether that was getting it or dying of it, either way I'm working hard to staying controlled, and staying away from hospital food or IV infusions which are packed with sugar and carbs

Max68 · Sep 13, 2020

Mr_Pot said:
This is a very long thread so apologies if I have missed it but what is it that makes you think you are so vulnerable @Max68 ? At 52 you are not in the over 70's bracket, is your diabetes not well controlled or do you have some other underlying condition?

Sorry Mr Pot it's been a long day. Went to a Rave then the pub and finished off by hugging as many people as I could!! Obviously kidding!!

In answer to your question I have absolutely no idea if I will be vulnerable to Covid or not. I might breeze through it but I might not and unfortunately the only way I will know how vulnerable I am would be to contract it and see, but I'd rather try and avoid that experiment if at all possible! The same obviously goes for everyone.

The only clues I have are getting sent home mid morning from work back in March by the Union. Then the Government guidelines telling me as a diabetic that I should work from home if possible and stringently social distance. Then my GP signed me off until further notice insisting that I worked from home because I was a diabetic. Of course the knowledge of others on here and plenty of statistics to read kind of tell you I might not be quite as safe as a 21 year old Caucasian female with no underlying conditions!

Then 1st August came and Boris tells me I'm no longer vulnerable enough to avoid working in a classroom!

I'm a male of 52, HBA1c of 51 and on Metformin. Blood pressure "controlled" with meds and a little too much padding around the middle with a BMI of around 27. Several other meds for other conditions not listed as a Covid risk so not exactly in the same shape as Tom Hardy, although my mask might be as close as I get to looking like him in Batman!!

So the Government suggested I might be vulnerable, the GP suggested that I might be vulnerable and the Union suggested I might be vulnerable. How vulnerable we don't know because we don't know the statistics for Type of diabetes, the statistics for controlled or uncontrolled, how tubby you need to be before you are at a high risk...... All manner of we don't knows! With all these don't knows and not sures I'd rather err on the side of caution until someone can tell me for definite otherwise!

I've said before if I drove a van or was collecting Insurance like I used to I wouldn't be over concerned. However in a classroom when viral load is clearly a big talking point and considering the kids don't wear masks I'm definitely more concerned than I would have been in some of my other jobs.

Tannith · Sep 14, 2020

https://alama.org.uk/covid-19-medical-risk-assessment/ covid risk assessment calculator includes table.

Tannith · Sep 14, 2020

lucylocket61 said:
Does anyone know what percentage of over 60's don't have a co-morbidity?

Most seem to be on statins and blood pressure tablets, for example.

These are the ones that DO:
About 15 million people in England have a long-term condition (1). Long-term conditions or chronic diseases are conditions for which there is currently no cure, and which are managed with drugs and other treatment, for example: diabetes, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, arthritis and hypertension.

Long-term conditions
Long-term conditions are more prevalent in older people (58 per cent of people over 60 compared to 14 per cent under 40) and in more deprived groups (people in the poorest social class have a 60 per cent higher prevalence than those in the richest social class and 30 per cent more severity of disease) (1).

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projec...sability-long-term-conditions-multi-morbidity

lucylocket61 · Sep 14, 2020

Tannith said:
These are the ones that DO:
About 15 million people in England have a long-term condition (1). Long-term conditions or chronic diseases are conditions for which there is currently no cure, and which are managed with drugs and other treatment, for example: diabetes, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, arthritis and hypertension.

Long-term conditions
Long-term conditions are more prevalent in older people (58 per cent of people over 60 compared to 14 per cent under 40) and in more deprived groups (people in the poorest social class have a 60 per cent higher prevalence than those in the richest social class and 30 per cent more severity of disease) (1).

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projec...sability-long-term-conditions-multi-morbidity

the information in that link is dated 2012

Bluetit1802 · Sep 14, 2020

Tannith said:
These are the ones that DO:
About 15 million people in England have a long-term condition (1). Long-term conditions or chronic diseases are conditions for which there is currently no cure, and which are managed with drugs and other treatment, for example: diabetes, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, arthritis and hypertension.

Long-term conditions
Long-term conditions are more prevalent in older people (58 per cent of people over 60 compared to 14 per cent under 40) and in more deprived groups (people in the poorest social class have a 60 per cent higher prevalence than those in the richest social class and 30 per cent more severity of disease) (1).

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projec...sability-long-term-conditions-multi-morbidity

Arthritis is included as a long term condition, and a large percentage of older people have arthritis. It is almost expected of them. I haven't read anywhere that arthritis is an underlying condition as far as Covid is concerned.

DCUKMod · Sep 14, 2020

Bluetit1802 said:
Arthritis is included as a long term condition, and a large percentage of older people have arthritis. It is almost expected of them. I haven't read anywhere that arthritis is an underlying condition as far as Covid is concerned.

Bluetit - I have read rheumatoid arthritis is in there, along with Lupus (and a couple of others escaping my mind). I am assuming that is because of the auto-immune response and possibly higher than usual inflammation levels present, almost as a matter of course with the conditions.

lucylocket61 · Sep 14, 2020

bulkbiker said:
So what? If you don't eat them in any quantity then not a problem..

You have missed the point.

Max68 · Sep 14, 2020

DCUKMod said:
Bluetit - I have read rheumatoid arthritis is in there, along with Lupus (and a couple of others escaping my mind). I am assuming that is because of the auto-immune response and possibly higher than usual inflammation levels present, almost as a matter of course with the conditions.

Oh great, arthritis to add to my list!! I'm beginning to think that if I believed in reincarnation, knowing my luck I'd come back as me!!

DCUKMod · Sep 14, 2020

Max68 said:
Oh great, arthritis to add to my list!! I'm beginning to think that if I believed in reincarnation, knowing my luck I'd come back as me!!

Only rheumatoid arthrits is included, not osteoarthritis.

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