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Covid and Work, Covid Advice and General Chat

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Max68, Jul 13, 2020.

  1. JRT

    JRT · Well-Known Member

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    That should read nonsensical!
     
  2. Fairygodmother

    Fairygodmother Type 1 · Well-Known Member

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    I agree with just about everything you say @JRT, and would add that it’s revealed the great shortcomings of being guided by ideology rather than empathy. I just hope that any preparations for a possible second wave (which I hope won’t happen) are more thorough than the crisis planning that took place (or didn’t) after Operation Cygnus.
     
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  3. Tannith

    Tannith · Well-Known Member

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    "when my daughters care home were told they had to take covid positive patients from hospitals . Her manager was in tears."
    Who exactly said they "HAD" to take people with covid? I always believed the stories that people were turned out of hospitals into care homes without tests. I didn't realise that hospitals KNEW these patients actually DID have covid. I was also shocked to learn from your earlier post that your own care home deliberately concealed the fact that they had had a patient die of covid, hence putting your life and the lives of the other staff at risk. This is wickedness beyond belief. I can understand that they were frightened of losing their business but nothing excuses concealing a covid death. You have really enlightened me about what was really going on in care homes. Thank you so much for telling us the inside story, otherwise I would have believed the Govt's yarns. This also warns me not to take any notice of Govt propaganda that it is safe to emerge from shielding and for others to go back to work and even to use public transport. Those working from home and continuing to do so are doing us all a favour. They are freeing public transport so it is less crowded for those who have no choice but to use it.
     
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  4. JRT

    JRT · Well-Known Member

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    Tannith, I do need to clarify one point. My care home denied they had a person who was a member of staff in the building who was believed to have Covid (later confirmed). That said considering the potential risk a deep clean was only being done 3 days after event and there was no cleaning of high impact areas such as door handles etc. That may have been how it got got into the building. It certainly took hold and as I say approximately a third of residents died. I know the floor I worked on( where infected staff member was) 6 residents died. Something went very wrong in that building,from the care homes perspective I dont know whether it was ignorance at the time or bad luck or both. Initially the government were saying it was a flu like virus whereas now we know better. What concerns me most is their lack of transparency initially stemming from denying playing down fact a staff member infected. Staff have left replaced with newer ones. The manager was sacked. Due to lockdown relatives who visited daily are not there and so not questioning where residents are.
    The government did indeed bulk buy empty beds in care homes to remove bed blockers in NHS. Most were not tested. If they were often the results were not available until after discharge. Still the NHS wasnt overwhelmed. The argument now is who to blame. Some have questioned why these patients weren't isolated in nightingale hospitals until safe to transfer. Good question. I think most have read an initial comment from a government official that some old people may die. Probably Cummings. It's hard to believe that they could look at what was happening in the rest of Europe,particularly in care homes and not be aware. Maybe they didnt want bodies on the streets or the horrific overwhelming of services we saw elsewhere. Unfortunately it happened but behind closed doors.
    I think most people have a healthy cynicism when it comes to politics. Most imagine that at a time of great national crisis they will get their act together. They didnt. The PPE was on it's way, world beating test and trace etc etc. Before it was more widely known I knew without doubt they were lying about care homes. It shook me to the core. Since then I have looked closely at what they say and why. Even the government admit their main interest is the economy. They really only pay lip service to needs of most vulnerable and have done for a decade. I wouldn't want anyone to be hiding indoors terrified. I do think people need to think carefully about what they do and how they do it. We also need to be aware that old rules may not apply. I know diabetes uk are petitioning government for more support for diabetics. Hopefully successful but until then each one of us has to negotiate what's best for us and it's a pretty uneven playing field. Sometimes it can be exhausting and draining. I personally step back and look at certain groups such as government employees and dentists who are still working in a way to minimise risk. My dental check up is cancelled by dentist for foreseeable future. I know that dentistry is high risk. I certainly dont think however that using public transport other than for dire need is a good idea. As I've said before this virus will either disappear in a puff of smoke or an effective safe vaccine found very soon. If not its early days where more is unknown than known and misinformation is rife. I would hate anyone who is vulnerable to become one of the ever growing statistics with lessons will be learned as an epitaph.
     
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  5. JRT

    JRT · Well-Known Member

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    We can only hope( and social distance)
     
  6. Tannith

    Tannith · Well-Known Member

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    https://www.livescience.com/topics/live/coronavirus-news-live-updates?utm_source=notification
    "A new study out of South Korea has found that only younger kids are less likely to transmit and catch COVID-19, while kids ages 10 and older behave like adults when it comes to COVID-19 transmission, according to the study published online in the journal Emerging Infectious Diseases. Children under 10 years of age were much less likely, the researchers found, to transmit the disease to others."
     
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  7. JRT

    JRT · Well-Known Member

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    Well that's some good news for parents and grandparents and those who work with the age group. I suppose like any research though it depends on the variables such as it that on a 1.1 basis and how do you define less risk. Maybe its natures way of protecting the very young who need physical interaction for both physical and emotional well being.
     
  8. JohnEGreen

    JohnEGreen Other · Master

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    Maybe because when they exhale it's nearer ground level and likely only going to hit you on your knees.

    Less likely doesn't mean can't lower risk not no risk.
     
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  9. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Guru
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    Thanks for that.
    Interesting that the cut off age is as low as 10 yrs.

    [irony] That is certainly concerning for any parent with a child who is 10 yrs and 1 day at which point the risk factor doubles [/irony].

    In the situation used by the study, that means the risk doubled from around 9% to 18% of ppl testing positive.
    Anyone consider that insignificant? I don't. Especially if that child has contact with any vulnerable family members or extended family members.

    They are still going with the idea of it being the nasal ACE2 receptors being the key factor.
     
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  10. JohnEGreen

    JohnEGreen Other · Master

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    And of course those ACE2 receptors will also be closer to the ground and thus all that exhaled virus from adults will just go way over their heads.

    And of course if you think about it the older children are a lot taller usually.
     
    #130 JohnEGreen, Jul 20, 2020 at 8:45 AM
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
  11. JohnEGreen

    JohnEGreen Other · Master

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    There seems to be some science behind my theory that height is the governing factor.

    " telltale variants near genes involved in several of the brain's chemical messenger systems, including the receptor for thyrotropin-releasing hormone, which is significant because pygmies do not seem to develop thyroid problems, such as goiter, that typically occur in the iodine-deficient areas where they live. Some of the SNPs cluster in an area of chromosome 3 around genes that could be involved in height. One, called CISH, shuts down the receptor to a key growth hormone; mice that overproduce the receptor are smaller and grow more slowly than normal. Investigating this gene further, study co-author Joseph Jarvis, who is now at the Coriell Institute for Medical Research in Camden, New Jersey, found that it also confers immunity to diseases such as malaria and tuberculosis."

    "The fact that pygmies seem to show genetic differences in CISH suggests that growth and immunity are physiologically linked, Tishkoff says. "Our finding raises the intriguing possibility that short stature could be the result of better disease resistance—which is likely given the many microbes that pygmies are exposed to," says Tishkoff. "Even though they do die young, pygmies might have evolved with a slight edge in the constant arms race between the human immune system and the pathogens."
    She says the study doesn't refute other hypotheses; it shows that the picture is more complex. "The pygmies' size can't be explained by one or two height genes" she says. "Clearly, these groups evolved with growth, metabolism, and immunity all interconnected."
    Evolutionary biologist Michael Hammer of the University of Arizona in Tucson calls the study exciting. "The numbers of individuals are too small to turn up a smoking gun, but no one else has gone into Cameroon to get samples from two neighboring groups that differ in height," he says. "The team is using a very creative approach, and they've provided an interesting candidate region of DNA to home in on.""

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2012/04/did-dodging-disease-keep-pygmies-small

    Yes tongue in cheek but who know's :)
     
  12. Cdean8780

    Cdean8780 Type 2 · Active Member

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    I was due to go back weeks ago (hospital,frontline cleaning infection.).

    I half wanted to go back for the boredom. I tried following government guidelines.(which employer seem unaware of)Work from home not possible, cant redeploy myself to another role to work from home.

    Then it says i should be offered safest available on site role available. When I have suggested what I thought would be "safe"(even safe roles impossibility to totally distance from people). I was told I couldn't return until occupational health appointment.

    This is now drawing near via telephone appointment and the end of my sick note (which I didnt want to put in the last time) the appointment is a few days before my return so dont know if anything will get sorted. So getting anxious again especially in the knowledge a lot of my colleagues have got antibodies eg had the virus, possibly from work.

    Diabetes uk mention furlough and extending it for clinically vulnerable people yet i have never even been offered furlough.

    The guidance also states "As for any workplace risk, employers must take into account specific duties to those with protected characteristics, including, for example, pregnant women who are entitled to a suspension on full pay if suitable roles cannot be found". My employer/occupation health said type 2 isn't a disability but hypertension maybe but is hard to prove you suffer from it. (I have type 2, metformin sitagliptin, and hypertension ramipril)

    Also interesting is how the virus is more contagious/lethal in different areas of Britain for example Wales government advises you not to leave home to work at all
     
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  13. Tannith

    Tannith · Well-Known Member

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    Amount of money saved by working from home
    Currently, around 60% of the UK’s population has left the workplace to work from home and 9 in 10 (89%) believe this is reducing their expenditure.

    By not having to do things like commuting and buy lunch every day, the average employed worker is saving £44.78 every week.


    https://www.finder.com/uk/working-from-home-statistics

    Those who work from home, and their employers who let them continue to do so, are doing the country a huge favour. They are not spreading the virus at work. But more importantly they are freeing up seats on public transport so that it is less crowded and safer for those who need to use it because they are unable to work from home. A few sandwich bars will lose money, and that is sad for them as it was a sudden blow, for which they were unprepared. However, as home working will now increase permanently, they will have to be realistic and swap to trades which are in demand. It is no use trying to sell people what they no longer want. The high streets too, which were already on the decline before covid, will have to adapt to selling online. It will not be a problem long term, as if pple need a new sofa or fridge they will still buy it. These things are delivered from out of town warehouses anyway. Possibly fewer takeaway outlets will be good for the nation's waistlines .

     
  14. Mr_Pot

    Mr_Pot Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I think the desire by the devolved governments to show off their power by making slight changes to the rules and timing has contributed to the confusion. Why Wales, with a population a third of that of London, has its own health policy, I have no idea.
     
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  15. Max68

    Max68 · Well-Known Member

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    Here
    Here's hoping because I'm only 5 foot 5!!! ;)
     
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  16. Brunneria

    Brunneria Other · Guru
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    I think you are vastly underestimating the number of employees whose incomes will be decimated by the closure of 'a few sandwich shops' and high street chains. It isn't just a few people. It is a massive network of office, frontline, delivery, and manufacturing staff. I feel for every one of them - especially since none of those jobs are particularly well paying in the first place.
     
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  17. Bluetit1802

    Bluetit1802 Type 2 (in remission!) · Legend

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    My daughter was sent home right at the beginning as she has asthma on her work medical records, even though it never bothers her and she hardly ever needs her inhalers. She was initially put on special leave with full pay. More recently she has been provided with a specially adapted laptop with inbuilt phone and her home workspace has been given the go ahead by a health and safety person. Her work was face to face, and involved tight data protection. She is now working from home on her normal hours and doing her normal job using the phone rather than face to face. This is a government department, and neither of us can see this arrangement ending any time soon. All the home workers have been given similar equipment, bought in specially. This must have cost a small fortune, and we are sure they won't want to waste their money scrapping it all. Apart from that, her office was small, and the staff desk-shared previously as most were part time in one way or another. Allowing home working has meant an end to the desk sharing, and poses less risk to those still attending the office.

    As for saving money on lockdown, we are both over 70 and retired but have still saved a considerable amount of money by not having our frequent cottage holidays and breaks in the UK, and my husband not going to his local pub for his twice weekly games of darts.
     
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  18. JRT

    JRT · Well-Known Member

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    I understand where you are coming from.Are you in a Union? I work in care and face similar issues. They are supposed to work with you to do an individual risk assessment to reduce risk ,offer you a less risk work area role . I think if none of that possible they could furlough you. My employers so far have ignored all requests to work from home-even though there are things I could of done,no alternative role or risk assessment. Like you I'm signed off sick.
    See what OH say,ask for written account of conversation.
    One thing I did learn from my Union today is that the risk includes how you get to work. I need to get two buses. Apparently the Government have an infection control fund which can be used by employers to pay for taxis for vulnerable employees.
    I have personally found it a very grey area. There are many reports of the number of deaths from Covid where diabetes is underlying condition. Diabetes UK are demanding extra support for diabetics. When I called them I was told diabetes is a protected characteristic and is apparently a hidden disability.
    In my personal experience this isnt translating to real world. GPs vary in how supportive they are. I've heard some are excellent. Mine is very grudgingly supportive. On two occasions she said it would be different if shielded. When she spoke to me last she admitted she has many patients in same position but this situation could go on for a year and cant be signed off forever. She then commented she has a diabetic patient who returned to care work and is quite happy! I thought that rather unkind as of course individual risk is so variable depending on age,bmi,where you work how you get there!
    For me the most telling fact is even the government on Co.Uk are advising minimising contact outside of household etc etc. If I equate that to my setting it's almost laughable that there could be anybody questioning it!
    See what Occupational health say. Hopefully you have a supportive GP. A union may be of help. Above all else dont feel pressurised into a situation you dont feel safe in. It may be that in the future legislation/government policies catch up with the situation. Until then I think it will be an increasing problem,especially when Shielding restrictions are lifted.
     
  19. JRT

    JRT · Well-Known Member

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    Bluetit1802 I'm glad that your daughter is safely working from home. I do feel however that this is a perfect example of how inequitable an individual's risk to the virus is. Government departments and council employees are working from home for the foreseeable future. Private sector and many frontline workers are given vague protection but on whole just expected to get on with it. Apart from risk posed by public transport employees are at mercy of employer (and colleagues) as to how safe the working environment is. If it's not Covid Safe you report to HSE( whose numbers have been decimated in past decade). Not only would you have put yourself at risk by being in the environment but what would your position be until it was investigated/made Covid Safe.?
     
  20. DCUKMod

    DCUKMod I reversed my Type 2 · Master
    Staff Member Administrator

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    Whilst I have no basis to challenge that number, I would comment that for those who work from home long term, it is really necessary to have an assigned working area.

    I have worked from home for many years, and have an office where I work. No "play" happens in there. It is furnished with office furniture and I sit on a decent quality office char.

    Weekend before last I met up with a friend who has been working from home, due to the current circumstance. By her own description, her apartment is compact, with no room for a bespoke working area, and indeed she was initially working with her laptop on her lap, on the sofa.

    That is not a healthy way to work. She has managed to be a bit creative, in order to be able to "put things away", but I think if this situation was to go on much longer, something would have to give.

    Did the additional room in my house cost more than £45 a week? No idea, but the counterside to the saving is the additional spend on other things - whether it be the increase in energy costs, or buying equipment to make working from home workable.
     
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