CT scan (calcium heart scan)

[Brunneria]

Hi,
A while ago, @bulkbiker started a thread when he had this same test done.
I am afraid that I cannot find that thread, so have started this one.
If anyone finds BB's thread, could they link to it?

The CT Scan is a test (similar to an MRI, but on a smaller donut shaped machine, rather than the big tube machine that I had with an MRI).

It gives you a score, usually from 0-400 units, showing the amount of calcification you have on the lining of your heart arteries, and is (one of) the best ways to assess your chance of a heart attack in the next few years. It is much more accurate than the NHS QRisk test.

Anyway, Mr B and I trundled down to Rivers Hospital, Herts, and had the test yesterday.
I will respect Mr B's privacy, and not discuss his results, but am happy to talk about mine. if anyone has any questions, ask away!

The reason I had the test done was firstly, as moral support for Mr B, secondly curiosity to see how my highly insulin resistant body is handling my ketogenic, mainly carnivorous, high in saturated fat way of eating.

Anyone who is interested can research the relevance of a CT scan for heart assessment, by watching the Ivor Cummins youtube vids on the subject. There is even a TV documentary on the subject called Widowmaker.

Nowadays, the understanding is that calcification of the heart arteries is driven largely by chronic inflammation, infections, genetics, and autoimmune disorders, especially if they cause inflammation - and high insulin levels (such as many T2s have) is key here, since it often leads to inflammation.

Personally, I have psoriasis (chronic inflammation) and insulin resistance = high insulin levels, as well as gluten intolerance (which in my case causes joint inflammation, esp in the knees. And I have had most of those for most of my adult life. So it is a clear indication that I have several ingredients for brewing a bit of calcification.

So imagine my delighted excitement when the results of my test for the 4 heart arteries, showed ZERO calcification, amounting to a ZERO score overall.
I think it is fair to say that my low carb eating habits over the last few decades, keto for the last 5 years or so, and almost completely carnivorous for the last 4 months, is not 'stabbing me in the heart'



These are the test results:





In the pic below, you can clearly see the white areas are bones - sternum and spine and rib.
If there was calcification of the heart arteries, you would also see white deposits in the heart itself.

I confess I am a little shakey on the anatomy of the abdomen, but I think that the pic on the left is showing heart and liver, and the pic on the right is showing heart. Either way, no white patches.

 

[Brunneria]

We also had a brief chat with a consultant when she gave us the results, and I made some notes, which I will put here, since they offered quite a lot of extra info, which may be relevant.

She asked us why we had come?

I explained that I have a family history of heart disease in the males, and other conditions that cause high insulin resistance. She didn’t react to the IR mention at all.
Mr B has a family history of heart disease, which was our main reason for having the test.

She carefully clarified if either of us had been experiencing any symptoms (shortness of breath, pain in chest, arms, jaw, etc.)

She also explained that pre-menopause women are far less likely to get calcified arteries, due to ‘our protective hormones’ but then post-meno the risks increase. Men don’t have that level of protection and often calcify earlier, and more.

She said that with a zero, I am ‘below average calcification for my age,
(seemed a little surprised by it, probably because of my obesity???) and made no mention at all of IR.

The results are sent to the patient’s doctors, who are likely to get in touch, if the results warrant it. Hopefully mine won't. Lol. The patient gets the invoice (£225), the attached paper copies, and a CD containing the whole report and additional images (which I have not yet looked at).

Since I am now 51 and soon-to-be-menopausing I will have another test in 5-10 years, to see how things change for me. I have every intention of continuing with the Keto/Carnivory so it should provide a nice background for comparison. We shall see what happens.

She also made a big thing about how a high score does not automatically mean a heart attack is incoming, and a 0 score doesn’t automatically mean there is 0 risk.

I queried what the top end is, and she said that 0-400 are the scores usually covered, but she has seen much higher - and she also trotted out a little story about how a ‘member of the team’ is ‘young, very fit, eats a really good diet, and is very tanned’ but has a VERY high score. ‘So a lot of it is down to genetics’.

Yeah. Right. So what is the betting that this young, tanned, fit person is on a carefully high wholegrain, low sat fat, low fat, high fruit diet? With probably a high insulin requirement, and insulin resistance. Poor ****.

As mentioned above, anyone querying whether high insulin levels are a driver of heart calcification, should have a look at these vids:

 

[bulkbiker]

Yay well done indeed and great results!

 

[Bluetit1802]

Very informative posts @Brunneria Thank you.

I am absolutely delighted for you. You have the same results as a new born baby - absolutely terrific.

I am an advocate of keeping insulin levels as low as possible due to the inflammatory nature of high circulating insulin and the consequent heart problems, and would also add that Omega 6 is also highly inflammatory if not balanced correctly with Omega 3, which is why I avoid any foods rich in Omega 6 and low in Omega 3.

I don't think I'm brave enough to have one of these tests myself.

 

[eggs11]

Amazing! I really like @Bluetit1802's analogy - you have the same results as a newborn baby!

 

[ziggy_w]

Congrats, @Brunneria. This is a stellar result. It is also very encouraging to see that people like us can achieve a zero calcium scan score.

Personally, I am somewhat afraid to find out what all these years before low carbing did to my arteries, especially given that I have already suffered from a deep vein thrombosis.

Well, we can't change the past, only the future. So, here's to the future!

 

[shelley262]

Congratulations @Brunneria well done you - well worth doing clearly. If my cholesterol hasn’t gone down at my next review in a couple of weeks I’d consider finding out about this - although I don’t have any symptoms of heart disease, or of anything else thankfully for that matter! , just a high cholesterol score - which I understand dosent correlate but my gps practice clearly think the only way is statins.

 

[Lamont D]

We also had a brief chat with a consultant when she gave us the results, and I made some notes, which I will put here, since they offered quite a lot of extra info, which may be relevant.

She asked us why we had come?

I explained that I have a family history of heart disease in the males, and other conditions that cause high insulin resistance. She didn’t react to the IR mention at all.
Mr B has a family history of heart disease, which was our main reason for having the test.

She carefully clarified if either of us had been experiencing any symptoms (shortness of breath, pain in chest, arms, jaw, etc.)

She also explained that pre-menopause women are far less likely to get calcified arteries, due to ‘our protective hormones’ but then post-meno the risks increase. Men don’t have that level of protection and often calcify earlier, and more.

She said that with a zero, I am ‘below average calcification for my age,
(seemed a little surprised by it, probably because of my obesity???) and made no mention at all of IR.

The results are sent to the patient’s doctors, who are likely to get in touch, if the results warrant it. Hopefully mine won't. Lol. The patient gets the invoice (£225), the attached paper copies, and a CD containing the whole report and additional images (which I have not yet looked at).

Since I am now 51 and soon-to-be-menopausing I will have another test in 5-10 years, to see how things change for me. I have every intention of continuing with the Keto/Carnivory so it should provide a nice background for comparison. We shall see what happens.

She also made a big thing about how a high score does not automatically mean a heart attack is incoming, and a 0 score doesn’t automatically mean there is 0 risk.

I queried what the top end is, and she said that 0-400 are the scores usually covered, but she has seen much higher - and she also trotted out a little story about how a ‘member of the team’ is ‘young, very fit, eats a really good diet, and is very tanned’ but has a VERY high score. ‘So a lot of it is down to genetics’.

Yeah. Right. So what is the betting that this young, tanned, fit person is on a carefully high wholegrain, low sat fat, low fat, high fruit diet? With probably a high insulin requirement, and insulin resistance. Poor ****.

As mentioned above, anyone querying whether high insulin levels are a driver of heart calcification, should have a look at these vids:

Is there a cure for a big well done?
So made up for you!

 

[Brunneria]

Thanks everyone.

I am pretty delighted. And I confess it was a surprise. My main concern going in was that my calcium score would be so high that Mr B would feel my LCHF way of eating was... not helpful.
He has always been incredibly tolerant and supportive of my little vagaries.

We always have these pre-test nerves, don’t we?
Huge relief, nevertheless!

 

[Guzzler]

That is smashing news, very well done.

With a strong familial history of heart disease in my immediate family I would have this scan in a heartbeat (you see what I did there? ) if only finances would allow. Maybe some day.

 

[phdiabetic]

This is a cool test, I have never heard of it before. Your pictures are nice!

Do you think it's worth doing for all diabetics, or only T2? (You mentioned insulin resistance and high insulin levels causing calcification)

I hope Mr B was happy with his results too, I won't ask what they are as he doesn't want to share but tell him that we hope he did ok!

 

[Brunneria]

This is a cool test, I have never heard of it before. Your pictures are nice!

Do you think it's worth doing for all diabetics, or only T2? (You mentioned insulin resistance and high insulin levels causing calcification)

I hope Mr B was happy with his results too, I won't ask what they are as he doesn't want to share but tell him that we hope he did ok!

Sadly, T1s have raised chance of atherosclerosis (calcification in the arteries) as well as T2s.
In fact the rate of heart disease amongst all types of Ds is significantly higher than in non Ds.

Several factors at play, I understand, including age, sex, how well controlled blood glucose is, and other contributing factors (like other autoimmune diseases and inflammation).

Here is what the dcuk main site has to say on the subject:
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes-complications/heart-disease.html

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

Sadly, T1s have raised chance of atherosclerosis (calcification in the arteries) as well as T2s.
In fact the rate of heart disease amongst all types of Ds is significantly higher than in non Ds.

Excellent result! I had one done in the US 2 years ago and was told that I had normal calcification for a man of 50 (I was 63) and almost in the same breath said I needed a triple bypass. I told them my travel insurance wouldn't cover that and was discharged. Obviously I saw my GP who by the time I got home had all 35 pages of the report (it broke their fax machine). My GP's husband is a cardiologist, what luck. She'd actually discussed my report with him and I don't need a bypass of any sort.

I'm going to have to go through the report to find the numbers. Now that you've explained the numbers, I'll hopefully get a better picture. I find that GPs sometimes gloss over the important bits. Thanks for the info.

 

[Tannith]

Hi,
A while ago, @bulkbiker started a thread when he had this same test done.
I am afraid that I cannot find that thread, so have started this one.
If anyone finds BB's thread, could they link to it?

The CT Scan is a test (similar to an MRI, but on a smaller donut shaped machine, rather than the big tube machine that I had with an MRI).

It gives you a score, usually from 0-400 units, showing the amount of calcification you have on the lining of your heart arteries, and is (one of) the best ways to assess your chance of a heart attack in the next few years. It is much more accurate than the NHS QRisk test.

Anyway, Mr B and I trundled down to Rivers Hospital, Herts, and had the test yesterday.
I will respect Mr B's privacy, and not discuss his results, but am happy to talk about mine. if anyone has any questions, ask away!

The reason I had the test done was firstly, as moral support for Mr B, secondly curiosity to see how my highly insulin resistant body is handling my ketogenic, mainly carnivorous, high in saturated fat way of eating.

Anyone who is interested can research the relevance of a CT scan for heart assessment, by watching the Ivor Cummins youtube vids on the subject. There is even a TV documentary on the subject called Widowmaker.

Nowadays, the understanding is that calcification of the heart arteries is driven largely by chronic inflammation, infections, genetics, and autoimmune disorders, especially if they cause inflammation - and high insulin levels (such as many T2s have) is key here, since it often leads to inflammation.

Personally, I have psoriasis (chronic inflammation) and insulin resistance = high insulin levels, as well as gluten intolerance (which in my case causes joint inflammation, esp in the knees. And I have had most of those for most of my adult life. So it is a clear indication that I have several ingredients for brewing a bit of calcification.

So imagine my delighted excitement when the results of my test for the 4 heart arteries, showed ZERO calcification, amounting to a ZERO score overall.
I think it is fair to say that my low carb eating habits over the last few decades, keto for the last 5 years or so, and almost completely carnivorous for the last 4 months, is not 'stabbing me in the heart'



These are the test results:





In the pic below, you can clearly see the white areas are bones - sternum and spine and rib.
If there was calcification of the heart arteries, you would also see white deposits in the heart itself.

I confess I am a little shakey on the anatomy of the abdomen, but I think that the pic on the left is showing heart and liver, and the pic on the right is showing heart. Either way, no white patches.

Congratulations on your good health

 

[ickihun]

Hi,
A while ago, @bulkbiker started a thread when he had this same test done.
I am afraid that I cannot find that thread, so have started this one.
If anyone finds BB's thread, could they link to it?

The CT Scan is a test (similar to an MRI, but on a smaller donut shaped machine, rather than the big tube machine that I had with an MRI).

It gives you a score, usually from 0-400 units, showing the amount of calcification you have on the lining of your heart arteries, and is (one of) the best ways to assess your chance of a heart attack in the next few years. It is much more accurate than the NHS QRisk test.

Anyway, Mr B and I trundled down to Rivers Hospital, Herts, and had the test yesterday.
I will respect Mr B's privacy, and not discuss his results, but am happy to talk about mine. if anyone has any questions, ask away!

The reason I had the test done was firstly, as moral support for Mr B, secondly curiosity to see how my highly insulin resistant body is handling my ketogenic, mainly carnivorous, high in saturated fat way of eating.

Anyone who is interested can research the relevance of a CT scan for heart assessment, by watching the Ivor Cummins youtube vids on the subject. There is even a TV documentary on the subject called Widowmaker.

Nowadays, the understanding is that calcification of the heart arteries is driven largely by chronic inflammation, infections, genetics, and autoimmune disorders, especially if they cause inflammation - and high insulin levels (such as many T2s have) is key here, since it often leads to inflammation.

Personally, I have psoriasis (chronic inflammation) and insulin resistance = high insulin levels, as well as gluten intolerance (which in my case causes joint inflammation, esp in the knees. And I have had most of those for most of my adult life. So it is a clear indication that I have several ingredients for brewing a bit of calcification.

So imagine my delighted excitement when the results of my test for the 4 heart arteries, showed ZERO calcification, amounting to a ZERO score overall.
I think it is fair to say that my low carb eating habits over the last few decades, keto for the last 5 years or so, and almost completely carnivorous for the last 4 months, is not 'stabbing me in the heart'



These are the test results:





In the pic below, you can clearly see the white areas are bones - sternum and spine and rib.
If there was calcification of the heart arteries, you would also see white deposits in the heart itself.

I confess I am a little shakey on the anatomy of the abdomen, but I think that the pic on the left is showing heart and liver, and the pic on the right is showing heart. Either way, no white patches.

Fantastic result.
Mine was 19 over a year ago. (46yr old then)

 

[Brunneria]

Excellent result! I had one done in the US 2 years ago and was told that I had normal calcification for a man of 50 (I was 63) and almost in the same breath said I needed a triple bypass. I told them my travel insurance wouldn't cover that and was discharged. Obviously I saw my GP who by the time I got home had all 35 pages of the report (it broke their fax machine). My GP's husband is a cardiologist, what luck. She'd actually discussed my report with him and I don't need a bypass of any sort.

I'm going to have to go through the report to find the numbers. Now that you've explained the numbers, I'll hopefully get a better picture. I find that GPs sometimes gloss over the important bits. Thanks for the info.

Ooh, DGJ you are in the most amazing position.
You have that CT scan score from several years ago, so if you had another scan now you could see very clearly, what (if any) progression there has been.

Very few people have such an opportunity...

And yes, you are right, we need the full detail, not just what docs think we ‘need’ to know.
Perhaps if someone had bothered to explain the numbers, at the time of your previous test, you might have made different choices. Who knows? But you didn’t because you were not informed.

I am just data hungry. Haha!

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

Perhaps if someone had bothered to explain the numbers, at the time of your previous test, you might have made different choices.

Thinking about what I was told, the term "normal calcification for a 50 year old" is interesting. It assumes that we will all get calcification which obviously depends on our diet. This article is interesting https://www.quora.com/How-can-calcification-of-the-arteries-be-reversed. Their suggestion for reversing calcification and maintaining healthy arteries includes:

• No dairy
• No sugar
• No wheat or gluten (preferably minimal grain and more vegetables)
• No vegetable oils including canola, corn, soy, safflower or sunflower
• Blood thinning drugs: Drugs like Coumadin are known to induce arterial calcification by inactivating a protein called matrix GLA, or MGP, a potent inhibitor of calcification. MGP requires vitamin K for activation.
• High Calcium Intake: Taking isolated calcium while being deficient in vitamin K, D and magnesium can cause calcium to have deleterious effects on the body. One meta-analysis linked calcium supplements to heart attacks due to taking isolated forms.1
• Fluoride: A 2012 study in the Journal of Nuclear Medicine Communications found that fluoride may be associated with hardening of the arteries. Fluoride has been added to water supplies throughout the United States, toothpaste and is found in high amounts in chemical agricultural practices. Use a reverse osmosis system in your house for drinking water.
• Excessive Antibiotic Use: Vitamin K is produced by intestinal bacteria and is disrupted by the use of antibiotics that kill both good and bad bacteria.

Apart from the flouride in the water (I'm looking into the cost of decent water purifiers, calcification isn't the only thing it's connected with) and antibiotic use (6 months use because of leg infections caused by mosquito bites), I've actually been doing the "right" thing for some years before that scan. I might look at paying for another one or I could cheat and suggest to my GP that I'm having chest pains (I won't, many people more needy than me).

 

[BrianTheElder]

Hi @Brunneria Congratulations! It is nice to have this reassurance. I have had CT calcium score tests as well. 6 years ago, my score was zero, last year it was 3, so still happy with that. I had my tests for very similar reasons, mainly a very poor history of heart disease on my father's side.
I will wait a few years to have another test, since the old advice was once every 5 years.
Can you tell me how you accessed the service, please? My tests were a lot more expensive than your quote.
Thanks, BtE.

 

[Tophat1900]

Did you get up and dance, I would of? That is a WOW result.

Have been considering getting one done for a while now.

 

[Bluetit1802]

Blood thinning drugs: Drugs like Coumadin are known to induce arterial calcification by inactivating a protein called matrix GLA, or MGP, a potent inhibitor of calcification. MGP requires vitamin K for activation.

So yet again, we have very commonly used drugs for prevention of heart attacks and strokes that can actually contribute to them.