Dairy

[Munkki]

Hi all, well done so far

So, approaching the half-way point, I am trying to be creative in the kitchen. I have eaten salad and meat or fish several times in the last week. Today I had courgette no-carbonara, without cream, and nutritional yeast instead of parmesan. I fried the courgette too long, so the meal got soggy, but tasted amazing! Tonight I had something between a stir-fry and a salad, with veggies and a few beans. Tomorrow is Thai red curry day, with cauli rice

I still seem to loose fat around my tummy, but not losing weight, maybe due to exercise. I am quite active these days too. My appetite is healthy, and not as ravenous as before. My skin is okay, my cheeks are not too clean, but my nose is better .

Have an amazing Valentines weekend x

 

[dms1]

@dms1 Would you mind giving us your recipe for coconut yoghurt? There was a thread about it a while back and I made several attempt to make my own, but the attempts were pretty unsuccessful. I'd love to find a reliable recipe

Hi Indy51
I use 1 tin of coconut milk fortified with about 1/3 to 1/2 block of coconut cream which I grate into a little warm water to melt before adding to the milk. I then whisk in a small carton of natural coconut yogurt (no added sugar or flavourings), pour into a large, clean glass jar and leave in my kitchen to thicken up. This can take up to 2 days if it isn't very warm but you will see it start to change through the glass. Give it a good stir before storing in the fridge where it will thicken some more. You really need to experiment with what works in your environment.
Good luck!

 

[AloeSvea]

@Munkki - I too have lost some centimetres (2) around my waist and hips! I discovered this morning. Part of my lifelong metabolism is I gain, and lose, rather readily, but I haven't had the exercise regime I have since diagnosis, due to relocation/major life change etc etc - too focussed on home/hearth/transport/job stuff! (As in getting all of the above in order.) So the waist thing is not due to exercise (alas)(As I know movement is good for glucose regulation/organ health outside of anything to do with weight loss). Like you, it could be stress - as all those relocation things are way more stressful than I had envisioned. (Silly me! Not to have predicted it, but there you are.) But like you - abdominal weight loss noticed at the two week mark. Interesting!

 

[AloeSvea]

Whilst I was wandering around with my tape measure again this morning, just to double-check the 2 cms off my waist and hips in two weeks readings (yep! Still 2cms less.)
Me: Oh no! Herr Svea darling! I think the not eating cream might really be good for me!
Herr Svea: Oh - poor Aloe! I know how much you love cream!
Me: Only time will tell . If I put it back on with eating cream in a couple of months.

BTW I eat a LOT of cream, when I eat cream.

Herr Svea: It is probably the calories then? Rather than the actual CREAM? Don't you think?
(ie as cream is rather low on the insulin raising scale. Relating to Fung and that great on insulinemic food guy and his website I can't think of his name right now...)
Me: Yeah. . Maybe.. Yeah - probably.

 

[AloeSvea]

PS Discovered coconut yoghurt at the supermarket - I had no idea! So thanks heaps @dms1 and @Munkki for the thumbs up on the stuff! (I always imagined I would have to get it together to do my own coconut yoghurt, but I see food manufacturers have got there before me on this one! Yay!)

LOVE my coconut yoghurt with blueberries. YUM!

 

[Petrel]

Day 16. great news. It seems that I can still enjoy dairy because not much has changed.

my psoriasis is a little worse which may be the normal ebb and flow of the condition. And since throwing myself into experimentation with nuts and seeds, not all of them agree with me. Some of them eg almonds, cause allergic reactions, which could affect my autoimmune problems.

Most importantly. my readings are still in the sixes and sevens.

I'll finish the month dairy-free. Just go snacking on roast chicken and avoid seeds and nuts for 2 weeks.

 

[Munkki]

Hey, kudos for hanging in there! My waist and hips are getting slimmer, but I forgot to measure beforehand This experiment is really interesting, and I wonder whether I can eat lots of cream again. It is definite, though, that the days of daily Greek yoghurt breakfasts are over.

Sorry, @AloeSvea for all the stress at the moment. I hope you feel better soon about all the stuff that is going on.

@Petrel I also worry about the amount of nuts I eat, although I eat less altogether at the moment, as I am not as hungry.

Coconut yoghurt is great, but my home made version still needs tweaking...

 

[AloeSvea]

Very interesting that we are both getting slimmer waists and hips @Munkki! Our wee experiment of three .

Yes - stress is a tricky thing re BG regulation! Indeed. As soon as I get some space I want to go and meditate in nature, which is my fourth-equal favourite stress release (along with weight lifting! I find that very meditative as well). Now I understand those English cups (posters, wall magnets etc!) that say "Keep Calm and Keep Going" (and various versions!). I have to keep reminding myself this is not a permanent situation. (About getting my BG test strips on repeat prescription here as a 'selected individual' - that will be an ongoing battle and stress, unfortunately. I had to wait in a pharmacy yesterday for a half an hour while the pharmacist rang around, talked to my doctor, and then gave me an instruction so complicated I am going to have to call today to find out what she actually instructed me to do!) (The pharmacist is from an Eastern European country where such is more usual than the level of customer service a humble Kiwi like me is used to on her own turf. )

But stress is supposed to compound sleeplessness and waist girth, and it is not in my (our) case! So - it must be the dairy-free?

 

[AloeSvea]

So another note on dairy and health. I'm researching diet and arthritis at the moment, for some family members and friends who are afflicted with the joint pain from inflammation - arthritis, and came across info on dairy and inflammation. I remember too that some of the Paleo Way of Eating literature also talks about the connection between dairy and inflammation. Paleo literature also first introduced me to the idea that the 'nightshade vegetables' also trigger arthritic inflammation and pain. (And that grains do - goes without saying? When relating the Paleo literature, which is mainly about cutting out both grains and dairy for health reasons.)

Because I am also an LCHF Way Of Eating fan, I originally looked for information that dairy consumption might be good for arthritis, but it seems that is not the case, and according to the website 'healthline' "Dairy may increase arthritic pain".

Well that's a shame! I'm still missing cheese and cream something awful. And butter in cooking. So I can only imagine how my afflicted-with-arthritis friends and family will react when I pass on that information!

 

[Brunneria]

Does the literature say 'dairy causes inflammation'?
Or does it say 'those who are intolerant of dairy get an autoimmune reaction, which causes/exacerbates inflammation'?

Cos they are very different things.

Sorry to those who have read this before - but i am whey intolerant. So i can inhale cream, cheese and butter, with no ill effects, but milk, soft cheeses and cow yog all make me yawn, lose 20 points on my IQ, get sleepy, and my joints ache.

Always worth considering if issues from dairy are lactose, whey (milk proteins), the bovine thing (e.g. Cow not goat or sheep), and so on...

 

[AloeSvea]

Good points all @Brunneria - quite right!

Paleo is pretty blanket-avoid dairy, and doesn't make the distinction, but LCHF does make distinctions that you speak of - and quite right too. Especially from a personal standpoint I quite agree. I think the Paleo lit, and I am just writing from memory here and am not checking my sources online, but, the Paleo lit says that dairy is basically inflammatory for all folk, just that some folk tolerate it better than others. (Ditto on grains.)

I think the idea that is for some ethnic groups, dairy has been consumed for a long enough time that those ethnic groups have better protections and tolerances for dairy (and grains in some or most cases). Humanity paid a high price for agriculture and dairy, (in terms of diseases, and even some health breakdown that we talk of here, and definitely in terms of capacity for height, bizarrely) but of course the gains for those ethnic groups that were starving in particular (thinking of my friends and family the Scandos), the gains were in survival! And their health and bodies adapted to greater and lesser extents.

 

[dms1]

After reading the various reports from people on losing centimetres but not weight, I thought I'd just check my waist measurement. Amazed I seem to have lost three centimetres, although weight has only dropped by one kilo. How strange!

 

[AloeSvea]

3cm is a lot! And one kilo is still a kilo - interesting results indeed. My bathroom scales are on the blink, alas, so no weight measure from me. So @dms1 - what will you do with the information that dairy must affect your weight and body fat? Will you experiment with it some more by re-introducing various dairy items and checking your waist and weight, and see if you gain? Or will you go dairy-free? Or?

 

[dms1]

Planning to stay dairy free for the foreseeable future since I have found decent substitutes for most things and my cheese craving is definitely diminishing now. I'm trying out lots of things at the moment, including giving up alcohol for a year (nearly 4 months so far) - I think my improved blood glucose levels, after a disastrous summer, is a good incentive; anything else is a bonus!

 

[AloeSvea]

The foreseeable future? @dms1 - You're a trooper. I must say - the longing for cheese does seem to be a very real thing - the idea that cheese has an addictive quality/addictive properties rings true for me indeed. I basically mourn not eating camembert and brie every single day! (Especially as my immediate loved ones chow down on it - and I don't blame them!) I will be doing the gradual reintroduction of various dairy foods over several months - and basically see what I can get away with continuing to eat! Re my BG levels of course, which have yet to be seen in a week's time.

I'm reading the wonderful Prof Tim Noakes (with Proudfoot and Creed) 'The Real Meal Revolution', and as a diabetic himself he talks about food in relation to improving health with BG levels and T2D quite a lot, even though the focus is on weight loss, or 'banting' as our friends the more northern than the UK Europeans and their descendants like to call it.

Noakes talks about having "a little cream" - keeping that full cream and milk quantity small, due to its high caloric nature. "We suggest that you measure out a daily allowance of each and don't exceed it. The carb count of milk and cream must be faithfully factored into your daily carb allowance."

Also "Control your dairy. Although dairy is good for you, it does contain carbs and can be a stumbling block for some. In your Banting beginning, perhaps avoid eating too much dairy. Butter is still good. Dairy is actually way too complex to explain in this paragraph. Many people shed weight while eating heaps of dairy, while others don't even budge. There are numerous reasons for this. Please visit realmealrevolution.com for more information on dairy." (p. 51)

I've been reading up on dairy too in relation to arthritis in particular, for a friend and loved ones who suffer terribly from joint pain. I first found out about the inflammatory nature of food - particularly dairy and grains - in my Paleo readings. But when I was visiting many extended family members last year, joint pain and really really really debilitating joint pain (as in crippling) came up more than a bit. And long before I was diagnosed with T2D I was very scared of getting Rheumatoid arthritis (RA) as I saw what it has done to one of my Aunts (who I share 25% of my genes with, lest we forget). When her daughter my cousin talked to me about how to get better when she was diagnosed with prediabetes, she also suffers from osteoarthritis (OA), I was able to tell her that basically all the food/ways of eating that are good for dealing with blood glucose levels is also good for dealing with joint pain. And ditto on what to avoid. (Weight loss is also one of the recommendations for lowering joint pain, due to the stress on the joints of a too heavy body can cause.)

But now, after reading lots of sources on arthritis, I realise dairy may play a special role. Especially in RA - the autoimmune arthritis. Due to its particular inflammatory properties.

There was an important study in 2002 that basically associates high levels of carbohydrates with RA, (why are we T2 diabetics not surprised?!) where they say that previously they thought the body's immunity system was reacting to protein, but now they think it is actually excessive carbs. I feel sorry for my Aunt! Who chows down on carbs like nobody's business (as I used to pre moderate and low carbing as a diabetic). I will be passing this info on to her but I doubt that she will change her diet, especially if it turns out that dairy is particularly inflammatory - a bad thing for all of us but particularly for arthritis sufferers is my understanding. Imagine at 82 starting to radically change your diet to exclude grains and dairy? No - I can't see her doing it. But the pain she suffers is very bad. She is basically crippled with it. But she might surprise me. I will give her the info in as gentle a way as possible, and we shall see.

 

[Munkki]

Thank you for the medical information. This is so interesting, and so controversial. A few days ago a friend shared this video, telling that all animal products should be avoided (and supporting high carb for diabetics?!) http://nutritionfacts.org/video/food-as-medicine/#transcript I was travelling again, visiting family, and eating tons of meat. Back at home I have been eating a lot more plant-based food. Today's lunch was vegan, filling and gave me a 2-hours post-meal reading of 5.5! I miss cheese as well, but it lessens. I also remember how I found milk disgusting when I was a child, and wonder why I made myself 'overcome' this feeling in the first place.

All these effects on waist size amaze me. It will be so interesting to read about more accounts, and to see what happens when we or at least some of us reintroduce dairy next month.

Big hug

 

[AloeSvea]

The waist measurement is first and foremost about bloating? ie digestion tract issues - and apparently dairy is very inflammatory - seems our waist measurements are testament to that! (Perhaps! lol.) Screeds of folk have issues with lactose, and/or casein - the milk proteins - and whey fits in there somewhere doesn't it? Under casein? In that it causes irritation/inflammation to varying degrees.

And we insulin resistant folk - it raises our initial insulin levels apparently, to some degree, and to what degree it is 'bad' for us and our BG is what that degree is. And how else to know other than to eat and meter and measure, and take it out of our diet, then put it back in. Insulin-like growth factor (and there is a number in there - 1?) is also part of the 'bad' health effect, which is raised by dairy products.

This is my current understanding of the issue at any rate.

I'm pleased I had you guys to go through this non-dairy month with! Experimenting with your bod can be a sad and lonely experience otherwise! .

 

[donnellysdogs]

I am lactose free and buy coconut yogurts, and lactose free milk and cheese and don't notice any difference (besides the prices!!).

I am also gluten free and follow a FODMAP plan of eating any food-so no onions or garlic and any product containing these ingredients like soups. There is just one small exception to this which is rice crispier that I have been advised to eat to get a source of low fibre in me.

My health has improved dramatically since doing so. I still struggle to keep weight on-despite eating more....

 

[AloeSvea]

Chomping happily on my blueberries and coconut yoghurt as I key! (Thanks to this thread - now I know to look for it in the supermarket.)

I have found during this dairy-free month, that I have hauled out my paleo recipes for low-carb and non-dairy food options. I am very grateful for the paleo WOE in this! That and nut-spreads (as I can't do spreading butter or sliced cheese on the almond flour buns). I have continued to eat more meat - chomping on chicken wings for example instead of eating some brie. I watched Mr Svea make himself a salami and cheese open roll for breakfast, so I made a great paleo recipe care of some lovely Scando online in 'kvalifood', and lay crispy bacon, tomatoes, and some wonderful (albeit expensive) imported gherkins in order to have them no-sugar/low-carb. (I love gerkins! I am ridiculously happy to be eating them! I think they are my first pickled cucumbers since I started reading the label on them in the supermarket post-diagnosis.)

I am starting now to think what I am going to do post my HBA1c/blood lipid test on Monday. Will I stay non-dairy? Can I get away with saying 'So far my gut tells me 'yes''??!! As in my couple of cm less bloated/distended gut! Will I reintroduce butter? (And am currently hunting out fermented cashew 'cheese', to turn into my own substitute parmesan.) Then a month later - reintroduce cheese? Then a month after that - cream? Or just stay paleo? (which includes the grain avoidance.) (A LCHF paleo eater.) What of you others? What will you do next? @Munkki, @dms1, and @Petrel.

 

[donnellysdogs]

As I avoid gluten and lactose and only eat low fodmap ingredients too I've finally found some lactose free philadelphia cheese!! Brilliant!!
I still continue with lactose free full fat milk but also drink a lot of herbal infusion water now or my own varieties of water..its took a month to get used to all the water..between 1.5-2 litres a day...

The Arla cheddar cheese is (I think) the only one that I can see in supermarkets that can still say its cheese... But it is lactose free.

Ii love chomping on my 13 melon balls with the lactose free yogurt.. But do venture to lemon & lime or vanilla flavour as well as plain for recipes and coconut flavoured ones. The brand I buy is Alpro.

Yesterday I made a lovely blueberry sort of cake...all gluten free and just with yogurt on is absolutely lovely.

My pinterest is fabulous for looking up recipes...

I can never go back to grains, lactose, gluten or high fodmap foods.

I think though that I spend a lot of time in the kitchen with hubby making foods.. Definitely harder if people have a hectic life!!

For me my stomach is now working so, so , so much better that I know I have no choice than to just carry on..

You could easily try re introducing some foods for a month at a time.

Acidiphilophus (3 billion)tablets from health food places have also greatly helped me...

I can actually hear my stomach working now...and feel it.. But I went years without a murmur but with chronic wind a lot so to be normalising for me is fantastic.

I think you could try re introducing. I hate the extra expense of lactose free milk £1.35 for a small carton compared to £1 for a big carton but having more flavoured water helps with the costs and my bowels.

Good luck on whatever you decide to do.