Dairy

[Munkki]

Good evening fellow low-carbers,

I mentioned this briefly in another thread, but I would like some more information and experiences. When I lodged for a while I swapped my slow-cooked cacao-courgette porridge, which I was eating with coconut milk, with Greek yoghurt and nuts. The readings were not much higher, maybe 1mmol or so. I noticed that, over time, I got more hungry, and 'needed' quite a large amount of yoghurt every day to comfortably sustain until lunch. Generally hunger increased during the day, and I also gained weight. As I did not figure out how the scale of my host works (it is really complicated, with so many fancy functions), this crept up on me.

A week ago I went back to my low-carb porridge and am eating it since with coconut yoghurt. I feel fuller, right after breakfast and generally throughout the day. I feel better too. I read that dairy increases insulin production, and that the safe products are butter and double cream. Are there any more options? The protein causing this insulin production appears to be in the whey, so I wonder whether cheese is safe. I can eat a ton of cheddar at once, but hard cheeses and Camembert fill me up rather quickly.

Does anyone else have similar experiences? Many appear to be doing well with Greek yoghurt.

 

[ickihun]

Hi @Munkki
I personally don't buy any yogurts. Never have. I prefer double cream with anything I can. My cholesterol is a steady 4.4 for years now. Although gp wants me in the 3s.
I also eat cheddar cheese once a week.
My downfall is not eating enough veg. Always has been. I'm consuming too much protein but my muscles aren't being flexed enough to worry about them getting bigger.
Bad leg at mo so no swimming or mini jogs.
I read cheese is one of the best low carb high fat stables. I love my eggs too. Anyway they come.

 

[Larissima]

I have radically reduced dairy in my diet, as I find cheese and double cream very easy to binge on (I have problems with overeating). I still occasionally eat Greek yogurt, but never as a main part of a meal - just a spoonful or two stirred into soup, for example. I use butter and ghee for cooking, but when I indulge in a good cheese (as I did over the hols) I can see a BG increase . I don't know if it's due to whey - could be, as whey protein shakes also raise my BG - or a different constituent of milk. I haven't explored if goat or sheep dairy have the same effect, but want to try that at some point in the future.

 

[AndBreathe]

Good evening fellow low-carbers,

I mentioned this briefly in another thread, but I would like some more information and experiences. When I lodged for a while I swapped my slow-cooked cacao-courgette porridge, which I was eating with coconut milk, with Greek yoghurt and nuts. The readings were not much higher, maybe 1mmol or so. I noticed that, over time, I got more hungry, and 'needed' quite a large amount of yoghurt every day to comfortably sustain until lunch. Generally hunger increased during the day, and I also gained weight. As I did not figure out how the scale of my host works (it is really complicated, with so many fancy functions), this crept up on me.

A week ago I went back to my low-carb porridge and am eating it since with coconut yoghurt. I feel fuller, right after breakfast and generally throughout the day. I feel better too. I read that dairy increases insulin production, and that the safe products are butter and double cream. Are there any more options? The protein causing this insulin production appears to be in the whey, so I wonder whether cheese is safe. I can eat a ton of cheddar at once, but hard cheeses and Camembert fill me up rather quickly.

Does anyone else have similar experiences? Many appear to be doing well with Greek yoghurt.

I'll tag @Brunneria as I seem to recall she has issues with whey.

 

[Brunneria]

Hi

(Thanks @AndBreathe )

Yes, i have found i have 'whey issues'.
Many people are lactose intolerant (and are often ok with lacto free products) but they don't help me.
I am fine with butter, cream and hard cheeses - and they are the ones that have the least whey.

 

[AloeSvea]

I have wondered about the role of dairy in insulin production and in my own health too. I love cheese (as well as greek yoghurt and cream), and dearly hope it is not a culprit in my high blood-glucose profile! But I am pretty sure the only way to really know this is if you take all dairy out, and take your BG readings, document your weight/waist measurements etc, blood lipids, and then reintroduce various dairy items, one at a time, doing the same thing. And note your bodily reactions, and compare. I need to do this properly too, to really get to grips on the role of dairy in my health.

Dairy, alas, is a common culprit in food reactions and sensitivities (along with wheat). And we have this insulin resistance thing for sure. But saying that, many people have a fabulous positive bodily response to dairy. (Thinking of lactose tolerance!) And many people do not. 75% of the world lose their ability to really deal with dairy after weaning! Says wikipedia at any rate. Basically, the more ancestors and so on you have from northern Europe - the better is your ability to be healthy with dairy (or however you want to put it). Our adaptation to eating dairy is fairly new for we human animals, is the idea.

I would like to take dairy out in February, for instance. Maybe do a thread and share? I will suffer without cheese, butter, yoghurt and cream - be nice to share such sufferings! And BG readings etc.... What do you think? (And yes, lowering dairy means one would need to get energy from more ... avocadoes? Meat and animal fat? I guess so!)

 

[Munkki]

Thank you so much for your replies. I still have a small glass of kefir at night, because I make it myself. However, I notice that, when I am really full from dinner, after drinking the kefir, I could eat a bit more, but I won't

My BG is better these days, really, nicely low actually. I also get better through the day with three meals.

The effects of whey are really interesting. I thought I can tolerate dairy very well, judging from my rather Northern family tree.

@AloeSvea, a dairy fast is a great idea. I could spend some time without cream and cheese, and see what happens. I already started drinking my tea without milk, but there must be nicer options!

 

[AloeSvea]

OK - February it is, I'll start a thread, and if you want to give it a whirl then?

Will be interesting, as I note you @Munkki, and I, have about the same HBA1c (I fluctuate around in the 40-43/44 range it seems, these days.)

I tried a dairy-free month in 2014, along with being wheat-free, and the hardest thing to kick was milk in my tea and coffee. I kept forgetting for the first couple of days! It was hard at the beginning, but now I don't miss it at all. (On the other hand - I would always miss parmesan!)

 

[AloeSvea]

... or just carry on in this one! Silly me!

 

[Munkki]

OK - February it is, I'll start a thread, and if you want to give it a whirl then?

Will be interesting, as I note you @Munkki, and I, have about the same HBA1c (I fluctuate around in the 40-43/44 range it seems, these days.)

I tried a dairy-free month in 2014, along with being wheat-free, and the hardest thing to kick was milk in my tea and coffee. I kept forgetting for the first couple of days! It was hard at the beginning, but now I don't miss it at all. (On the other hand - I would always miss parmesan!)

Yes, let's do it!

Did your dairy-free month have any effects then? I remember when I first cut out dairy from my breakfast, I lost quite some weight.

 

[AloeSvea]

Wonderful!

There is no question that I have never had such good blood lipid results, as in the lowest triglyceride etc levels, than when I went dairy and grain free for that month. (My doctor was getting me to have once-a-month blood lipid tests during that period, so I have a great record.) I am still grain free (I have 'treat days' throughout the year on special occasions, when I eat flour and wheat products, and yes, I do enjoy it!), but - the dairy! Much harder to decide to drop from my diet. So the February non-dairy experiment will be very interesting.

As for weight. Once I was diagnosed with diabetes I started treating with lots of walking, and went from low GI (conventional diabetes diet, with much lowered sugar but still eating grains and dairy), to paleo, then to modified paleo (ie with parmesan cheese and butter), and I lost 15-20kg in three months. 90kg to 70-ish kg. It's stayed off. (I tried to go lean for awhile, but that was not so easy! And not successful. I am not lean, but yeah - very average-ish weight.) So yeah - the lower carbs of the paleo (no-grains) diet suited me for sure! And I assume that milk was not good for my health, as dropping it from my diet has been beneficial, regarding, ahhhh - digestion issues. I'm not lactose intolerant, but my body feels way happier without milk! No tummy bloating. (Which I would say milk and bread absolutely contributes to in me.)

 

[dms1]

I stopped eating dairy about 4 months ago, on the advice of my nutritionist, primarily to see if it would help the scalp psoriasis I had suffered from for almost 6 years. Amazingly, it worked and my scalp is now clear. She thinks it will also help reduce my insulin resistance so I am continuing with the dairy-free regime.

Fortunately, I have never been keen on milk and cream but miss cheese a lot, although I find it's easier to have none at all rather than tiny amounts for flavouring. I make my own coconut yogurt, enjoy soya and almond milk and am wondering about having a go at making nut 'cheeses' after finding a book on the subject in my local charity shop. Nutritional yeast is brilliant for adding a savoury tang but it just doesn't offer a decent substitute when what you really want is a cheese sauce. Definitely up for joining in your February venture...

I'm T2, diagnosed June 2007, controlled by diet.

 

[AloeSvea]

I'm really getting into the non-dairy prep! Meaning - I am eating yoghurt and whipped cream with relish while I can. .

Ditto the butter, and the parmesan. And the brie. And the camembert. And the blue vein. Sigh.

 

[AloeSvea]

Having my last cream in my coffee, dollops of butter on my blueberry (almond flour) muffins. I guess a last piece of feta. It is actually the first of Feb where I am, already (us lot on earth orbiting the sun the way we do), but as it is a public holiday and I couldn't get my blood lipids done on the morning of the first (now!) as I had planned - I am having a last hurrah breakfast - and having my blood lipids done tomorrow morning. (Fasting blood lipids are the best way to test triglycerides - as that reading is very food-you-have-eaten sensitive.) Then - non-dairy, and see what happens, if anything, to daily BG readings, and the blood lipids at the end of this/beginning of the next month. I do like a good self-experiment!

How are you feeling on your last dairy day for a month, @Munkki?

 

[Lamont D]

I do have grain intolerance and I don't do dairy except full fat Greek yogurt.
I don't have lactose intolerance, but the more lactose the worse I used to get.

It's interesting that it could be hereditary as I know that some of my younger relatives don't do dairy as well especially milk and butter, as well as any spreads.

I would join you on the dairy fast but I would really miss my treat at night time. (Yogurt, berries and 85% chocolate)!

 

[Petrel]

Joining you in avoiding dairy for 1 month. Lately I've been using more and more butter on veg, cream in coffee. lots of yoghurt and cheese. It almost seems like an addiction to dairy.

So my aims here are 1. to reign in my excess and at the end of the month, restart using dairy at a more sedate pace 2. see if less dairy will help me lose a bit of weight 3. find out if losing weight will help lower my morning FBG which is never less than 6.

This morning, I had black filter coffee and cooked my eggs in a bit of olive oil. It feels spartan. A handful of strawberries did help.

 

[AloeSvea]

I do have grain intolerance and I don't do dairy except full fat Greek yogurt.
I don't have lactose intolerance, but the more lactose the worse I used to get.

It's interesting that it could be hereditary as I know that some of my younger relatives don't do dairy as well especially milk and butter, as well as any spreads.

I would join you on the dairy fast but I would really miss my treat at night time. (Yogurt, berries and 85% chocolate)!

I think there is no doubt about the hereditary nature of dairy intolerance! It affects whole ethnic groups after all. It's about having an enzyme that breaks down lactose as an adult, isn't it? (I'm not sure! But I think that's what it is.) In fact, most people around the world are on the dairy intolerant spectrum I think? (It's too early in the day, and I'm fasting for my blood lipid reading which I must get to soon, for me to check these facts in a cursory search online! I'll do it .... another time.... ) Humans had to adapt to eating and drinking the milk products of other mammals in adulthood - right? And it's a fairly recent dietary adaptation, in the scheme of humanity on the planet things. I lived in Sweden for a long while, and truly understand in their climate how being able to eat and drink the milk products from cows ensured their survival.

Fermented dairy is wonderful indeed (cheese, yoghurt - yum.)

And Nosher - mentioning chocolate was just plain cruel! . It did occur to me late in the piece that by going dairy free for a month, I was also going chocolate free . Oh well! All in the interests of Aloe-and-diabetes science!

I tolerate dairy pretty well - especially butter and cheese and yoghurt. I think there were a fair few northern European peasants milking cows in my ancestry. But I do know that when I took milk out of my diet (along with grains - I didn't do it in a proper experimental fashion - I was just way too interested in regaining my shattered health at the time) - my digestion improved enormously. There is no polite way for a lady to discuss these, ah, digestion things openly, so I won't. . But there was no doubt that taking milk and wheat flour products made a huge difference in a positive way. (And I'm not dairy intolerant, or gluten intolerant.)

But I have no idea if the large amounts of cream, and to a lesser extent yoghurt, cheese and butter, I have been eating have been too insulin-raising for my good health. Hopefully this month I shall see.

Of course - you realise I don't WANT to find out my BG levels are better without dairy!

But we shall see.

 

[AloeSvea]

Joining you in avoiding dairy for 1 month. Lately I've been using more and more butter on veg, cream in coffee. lots of yoghurt and cheese. It almost seems like an addiction to dairy.

So my aims here are 1. to reign in my excess and at the end of the month, restart using dairy at a more sedate pace 2. see if less dairy will help me lose a bit of weight 3. find out if losing weight will help lower my morning FBG which is never less than 6.

This morning, I had black filter coffee and cooked my eggs in a bit of olive oil. It feels spartan. A handful of strawberries did help.

Wonderful Petrel! I shall look forward to reading how it goes with you too.

Good (black) coffee is a godsend. And strawberries (as fruit is generally) a gift from the gods also. I'm being all religious my first whole dairy-free day! .

 

[Brunneria]

@AloeSvea

Think outside the box, my dear.
Dairy free does NOT have to mean chocolate free!

http://www.ditchthecarbs.com/2015/02/25/chocolate-fat-bombs/

 

[Lamont D]

I think there is no doubt about the hereditary nature of dairy intolerance! It affects whole ethnic groups after all. It's about having an enzyme that breaks down lactose as an adult, isn't it? (I'm not sure! But I think that's what it is.) In fact, most people around the world are on the dairy intolerant spectrum I think? (It's too early in the day, and I'm fasting for my blood lipid reading which I must get to soon, for me to check these facts in a cursory search online! I'll do it .... another time.... ) Humans had to adapt to eating and drinking the milk products of other mammals in adulthood - right? And it's a fairly recent dietary adaptation, in the scheme of humanity on the planet things. I lived in Sweden for a long while, and truly understand in their climate how being able to eat and drink the milk products from cows ensured their survival.

Fermented dairy is wonderful indeed (cheese, yoghurt - yum.)

And Nosher - mentioning chocolate was just plain cruel! . It did occur to me late in the piece that by going dairy free for a month, I was also going chocolate free . Oh well! All in the interests of Aloe-and-diabetes science!

I tolerate dairy pretty well - especially butter and cheese and yoghurt. I think there were a fair few northern European peasants milking cows in my ancestry. But I do know that when I took milk out of my diet (along with grains - I didn't do it in a proper experimental fashion - I was just way too interested in regaining my shattered health at the time) - my digestion improved enormously. There is no polite way for a lady to discuss these, ah, digestion things openly, so I won't. . But there was no doubt that taking milk and wheat flour products made a huge difference in a positive way. (And I'm not dairy intolerant, or gluten intolerant.)

But I have no idea if the large amounts of cream, and to a lesser extent yoghurt, cheese and butter, I have been eating have been too insulin-raising for my good health. Hopefully this month I shall see.

Of course - you realise I don't WANT to find out my BG levels are better without dairy!

But we shall see.

Not having researched it myself, beyond what it does to you if you can't have dairy and the propaganda of how it is good for your bones etc. Which seeing that a lot of folk are intolerant etc. How can we get the calcium for our bones and teeth (tusks and fangs!!!)?

Chocolate won't be mentioned, just to say I always preferred the old style bourneville chocolate than the milk chocolate! There has always been clues to my intolerance of what I shouldn't have to eat or drink, I just didn't the full recipe from the ingredients that were right in front of me! What a difference it makes!

Since low carbing, my digestion and bowel movement has been tremendous! And I believe my piles have disappeared, nothing to do with treatment but as a benefit of my lifestyle, lots of eggs help! I believe that getting the things that affected my RH, permanently out of my system is so good for not only my control but of my general health and well-being.

Going to have my chocolate supper now! Oops!!!!