Dawn Phenomenon, Evening Eating

[Loveday8]

Hallo good peeps!
May I ask if a strong DP is contingent on eating/drinking late/large quantities the night before, or fasting the night before. Or is this another subjective one, varying in different people? I can't seem to put a finger on what's causing it, some days I leap out of bed, others feel like I'm dying, slow, breathless, weak, sleepy as anything (though I've slept well)
Thank you

 

[Antje77]

May I ask if a strong DP is contingent on eating/drinking late/large quantities the night before, or fasting the night before. Or is this another subjective one, varying in different people?

Definitely varying between people.

some days I leap out of bed, others feel like I'm dying, slow, breathless, weak, sleepy as anything (though I've slept well)

What kind of BG numbers are you seeing on both the good and the bad days?

 

[EBe66]

May I ask if a strong DP is contingent on eating/drinking late/large quantities the night before, or fasting the night before.

My experience is that something with carbs bites you in the a.. behind the next day. For me it definitely has a influence on the height and mostly the duration of my DP spike.
The amount of food does not matter so much for me but keep in mind that even low carb food normally has some carbs so more food = more carbs = more dp
(hard) Drinks do, if anything, improve them a bit. About feeling lousy it doesn't bother me (every morning is hard for me. Just not a morning person ) but I guess that depends on how high you spike. Mine is between 9-13 mmol.
Again in my experience there is very little you can do to control it. Not that I'm suggestion you try it but I seem to finally have some success controlling it a bit (lower high's and shorter duration) with berberine capsules. But it has just been a week that I started with them and it also influences my bs during the rest of the day. So now I'm "playing" with what to take and when. But with my meds and values and cgm I can afford to.

I used to do 72 hour fasts but in my recollection (don't keep track of when I did them) even then the dp is there and hardly smaller.
Edit: adding a screenshot of day 3 of my last 72 hour fast (and apparently not making the best choice for my first meal) Hardly if at all different from a eating day.

 

[danziger]

Everyone’s different. I get a DP in double figures if I don’t have a small piece of cheese or other protein before bed, but it doesn’t take much.

If you don’t already keep a food diary that might help you see if there’s a pattern.

 

[Deleted member 527103]

My experience is DP is dependent on exercise the day before.
If I have a good work out, the next morning, DP is barely noticeable.
If I spend a day loafing on the sofa, DP is very pronounced.
What and when I eat has no impact but that may be different for T1 and T2.

 

[Marie 2]

My thyroid seems to play a huge role in how bad my DP is. I can wake up at 5 am burning up and guarantee a rise in my DP levels. If I take my supplements for my thyroid then the waking up hot and my DP subsides and goes away. I am a type 1 though and have the antibodies that attack my thyroid. Right now supplements work but slowly but surely I am having to take more. In my case I haven't eaten or taken extra insulin after 5 pm and still will have DP, I have tried a small snack before bed and it makes no difference. Mine seems to be closely related to how my thyroid is doing.

When I first started to have sugar issues and I was still making some insulin, I was waking up to very high BG numbers. someone told me to eat a small amount of carbs before bed, that did work for quite a while. I was misdiagnosed as a type 2, but I was actually a type 1 so it might have been helping me to make more insulin, who knows.

 

[Outlier]

I have been strict keto for 10 months now, my bloods are down to pre-diabetic levels, and my DP is high every day. I think I must have a lot of Neanderthal genes!

 

[Roggg]

I get less dawn effect if I eat something later in the evening. Doesn't seem to matter much what it is. However, I dont know if doing this to mitigate DP is a net benefit or not, as I dont know what it does to my glucose throughout the night. CGM would really help sort this out, but it's expensive and not covered in my insurance.

 

[filly]

My experience is DP is dependent on exercise the day before.
If I have a good work out, the next morning, DP is barely noticeable.
If I spend a day loading on the sofa, DP is very pronounced.
What and when I eat has no impact but that may be different for T1 and T2.

Thanks very much for that. The only day I managed to get a low DP was the day after I struggled across the market square.
At the moment completely inactive due to very damaged knee. Hoping after knee replacement and being able to walk again shall get those numbers down.

 

[finzi1966]

I get less dawn effect if I eat something later in the evening. Doesn't seem to matter much what it is. However, I dont know if doing this to mitigate DP is a net benefit or not, as I dont know what it does to my glucose throughout the night. CGM would really help sort this out, but it's expensive and not covered in my insurance.

This doesn’t really help you answer this conundrum because we are all individuals but for what it’s worth, for me, eating something late in the evening no more affects my levels “throughout the night” than eating something in the morning affects my levels “throughout the day”. If it’s something higher-carb (I have been known to succumb to a piece of toast before bed!) then my levels might rise by 1-2mmol for an hour or two just as they would in the day but would then go back to normal.

I’ve never *really* spotted a link, for me, between a late night snack and morning figures. The greatest relationship with me is what sort of night’s sleep I’ve had.

T2 on meds with a CGM

 

[filly]

My experience is DP is dependent on exercise the day before.
If I have a good work out, the next morning, DP is barely noticeable.
If I spend a day loading on the sofa, DP is very pronounced.
What and when I eat has no impact but that may be different for T1 and T2.

Well, that explains it. Until I get a knee replacement I am fairly stumped. Sofa and bed are my friends right now.

 

[Marie 2]

That could explain it for some. But I use my exercise bike 10 miles every day and snorkel a couple of hours once a week and it never makes a difference on whether I am getting DP. The only difference for me that I know of is regularly taking my thyroid supplements, usually that starts to chase it away.

 

[filly]

That could explain it for some. But I use my exercise bike 10 miles every day and snorkel a couple of hours once a week and it never makes a difference on whether I am getting DP. The only difference for me that I know of is regularly taking my thyroid supplements, usually that starts to chase it away.

I did ask for my Thyroid to be tested but it didn't happen. Interesting. Thanks

 

[Bumpyswife_]

That could explain it for some. But I use my exercise bike 10 miles every day and snorkel a couple of hours once a week and it never makes a difference on whether I am getting DP. The only difference for me that I know of is regularly taking my thyroid supplements, usually that starts to chase it away.

if I may ask what supplements do you regularly take for your thyroid .

 

[Marie 2]

@Bumpyswife_ I take Natural Factors Thyroid Health, I got away a long time with just two a day, now I have to take 4 a day. And 1 drop of Heritage Products Atomidine Iodine.

I had excellent results years ago when I took them and my thyroid improved and then I got lax when I moved and sure enough my thyroid levels shot up again to way above normal. When I started again with each blood test my levels have improved and I am now at very good levels. But when I get lazy for too long, it definitely lets me know. My blood work lets me know too.

 

[filly]

I have been strict keto for 10 months now, my bloods are down to pre-diabetic levels, and my DP is high every day. I think I must have a lot of Neanderthal genes!

You and me both.

 

[Bumpyswife_]

@Bumpyswife_ I take Natural Factors Thyroid Health, I got away a long time with just two a day, now I have to take 4 a day. And 1 drop of Heritage Products Atomidine Iodine.

I had excellent results years ago when I took them and my thyroid improved and then I got lax when I moved and sure enough my thyroid levels shot up again to way above normal. When I started again with each blood test my levels have improved and I am now at very good levels. But when I get lazy for too long, it definitely lets me know. My blood work lets me know too.

Thanks for that not heard of them . I just supplement with b vitamins iron and magnesium they help .

 

[TigerTailz]

Hi, I was advised by my Diabetes Team that the Dawn P is down to hormones and natural hormone fluxes - our hormones *tend to rise in the mornings when we wake.
* tend to - but everyone is different and as I am menopausal some days mine only raise a little, sometimes more.

 

[Dianemacfaden]

Hallo good peeps!
May I ask if a strong DP is contingent on eating/drinking late/large quantities the night before, or fasting the night before. Or is this another subjective one, varying in different people? I can't seem to put a finger on what's causing it, some days I leap out of bed, others feel like I'm dying, slow, breathless, weak, sleepy as anything (though I've slept well)
Thank you

Hi
After 52 years as type 1 I honestly think if you get your background insulin dose right it can help minimise the dawn effect. But it will happen no matter what but can vary person to person. Sometimes I put either half to one unit of short in on waking depending on what my reading is and that can help. I find a low carb diet easier to manage especially less carbs later in the evening

 

[PHN]

Here'swhat I find as a type 2: I dont have great control because of the nature of what I do; Very long hours and intermittently physical/sedentary. When I'm eating 3 or 4 meals a day including one in the evening I have a big DP. When I do a week of intermittent (where i dont eat for 16 hours between supper and lunch) it falls right off. If I stick to not eating after 8pm, and avoid big carbs, after 5 days It just doesn't happen. (and my insulin requirement drops very, very quickly).
Jason Fung the Diabetic Code helped me understand the process quite well.