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Did a plant base diet ever work for metabolic syndromes?

Discussion in 'Type 2 Diabetes' started by Drfarxan, Mar 24, 2021.

  1. Drfarxan

    Drfarxan · Well-Known Member

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    Since the forum has been around for years i have been wondering if anyone ever tried a plant base diet to treat his/her diabetes, hypertension or any other metabolic syndromes before and mentioned it her. What were the results?

    What is your opinion on vegans like dr. neal bernard or dr. joel kahn. Disclaimer: i am pro LCHF(droped hb1ac from 11.84 to 5.8) but i would like to know about the other side
     
  2. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    This is a graph from Dr Barnards own study on plant based (vegan) diets in putting T2 into remission.
    Better than the Standard dietary advice for sure.... but still kept everyone diabetic and worsening over time.
    Probably not great if remission is the goal.
    Vegan trial Graph.png
     
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  3. Roggg

    Roggg Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I think you could do a successful diet around a plant based principle, but I dont think the plantiness is what's driving the majority of the health benefits regarding diabetes. Keep in mind pasta and rice are wholly compatible with a plant based diet, and I doubt you could drive T2 into remission eating those as staples. Avocados, nuts and low-carb veggies though might get you a long way.
    No I haven't tried it and dont intend to.
     
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  4. Mbaker

    Mbaker Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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    I tried more plant based and it worked.....against the standard UK diet. This is all about definitions, so "worked" meant A1c from 134 to 41/42 (all well documented with pics on this site of trays of roasted veg), "ldl", mid range blood pressure of circa 130-35/ 75/80 and still on metformin. This might be deemed "successful", and I am grateful to be alive (thought I had no chance). The highest GI carbs were carrots / swede.

    The problem was that I was working out 3 hours a day to maintain that A1c. I trained harder and still got a 41.

    When I reduced the low GI carbs (still have these but reduced by around 70%), and increased meats A1c has gone to between 35.5 and 39 depending on the Assay used, no more metformin and blood pressure 118 / 70. Ldl has gone up, but trigs (fat in the blood) 0.5 or less, HDL circa 2.5.

    My opinion of those you mention cannot be publicly stated, but you can include Joel Fuhrman, Michael Greger, Pam Popper, John McDougall, T. Colin Campbell and various others.
     
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    #4 Mbaker, Mar 24, 2021 at 5:15 PM
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2021
  5. Beating-My-Betes

    Beating-My-Betes · Well-Known Member

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    Lots of people having success with all manner of conditions, including diabetes, high blood pressure, migraines, arthritis etc. etc. etc. on a high-carb, plant-based diet:

    Success stories on 'Forks Over Knives': https://www.forksoverknives.com/success-stories/

    Regarding diabetes, specifically, I have uploaded a PDF link to various success and success-in-progress stories on FOK and MasteringDiabetes.

    And here's a playlist with anecdotal evidence of great healing on a raw-food diet, based predominantly on fruit:



    Louise's personal account is quite the turnaround:



    In terms of general treatment of metabolic issues, Walter Kempner's work is very interesting. His diet intervention contained nothing but white rice, fruit, fruit-juices and ad-libitum amounts of refined sugar (Yup! The white stuff). If you're curious about that and other similar protocols, then Denise Minger's post is a good place to start:

    https://deniseminger.com/2015/10/06...-a-call-for-some-evolution-of-thought-part-1/

    I keep threatening to start a blog for my own high-carb journey, but have yet to get around to it. Fell off the wagon for a while, so maybe if for no other reason it would be a way of holding me accountable. Coffee seems to be my Achilles heel, as it sets of cravings for the 'wrong' kinds of foods :(
     
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  6. Ronancastled

    Ronancastled Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I take it you've all watched the Netflix documentary What the Heath


    It's very pro plant based diet & rolls out many talking heads from the vegan lobby.
    Gets a bit echo chamber for my liking towards the end but worth the watch.

    They do say however that eating meat causes cancer & all the other nasties.
    Like all things on the internet it's very biased but well made.
     
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  7. Mbaker

    Mbaker Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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    Whilst it is useful to see success stories that address the question, you are referencing the Mastering Diabetes site where the lead Cyrus is fine with spikes up to 175 mg/dl (9.7 mmol/L) - this is important for potential candidates to note. A HbA1c of 5.3 gained by swings between high and low numbers is not healthy. I would suggest that the recipes on the Forks over Knives sites are also reviewed, there are items within these I would suggest would fail the 80 / 20 rule, i.e. would not work for the majority such as rice, pineapple, potatoes and maple syrup.
     
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  8. Hotpepper20000

    Hotpepper20000 · Well-Known Member

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    I’m not against plant based diet, if that is what one chooses to eat.
    It can be healthier then the average diet for most western countries.
    But I think the debate on if it can “cure” metabolic disorders would be over if everyone would use a BG meter to test what a high carb plant based meal does for blood sugar.
    I know for myself when I started this journey I tested all kinds of foods.
    I could start at 5ml and a meal of whole grains and legumes would spike my BG to 14-18. And keep it there for a few hours.
    A nice ribeye or pork chop with some Zucchini and mushrooms hardly rises my BG. So for me the debate is over.
     
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  9. Beating-My-Betes

    Beating-My-Betes · Well-Known Member

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    Do you have any data to show why he shouldn't be?

    Firstly, I'm not sure those who are seeing results are experiencing actual lows, but I'm guessing you are describing the lowering back to normal. The rise (spike is a bit of a loaded term) is expected, hence the testing at 90-120 post-prandial and the use of tri-monthly average. But again, if you have some solid data for why this undulation - a normal physiological response to the ingestion of carbs - is not healthy.

    Not sure how the Pareto Principal (Pretty sure that's what you're referring to) is relevant to these accounts, but I would definitely be curious to see the percentages for success rate, distinguished by those who just couldn't stick to the plan and those for whom the plan actually caused real issues. Perhaps I'll try to find that out. Either way, it's probably not too far off a guess to suggest that the majority of those who are finding success on the WFHCLFPBD, at one point or another, absolutely weren't able to deal with the foods you've listed.
     
    #9 Beating-My-Betes, Mar 25, 2021 at 3:49 PM
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2021
  10. Andy_Warlow

    Andy_Warlow Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    You can but You will have to work out Hours and hours a day.

    The problem with Plant base is, to reduce your blood sugar with it, is rather difficult. Don't get me wrong There plant based protein but that contain a quite a few carbs in it as well, or as I like to call them hidden carbs.

    You may be lucky and dropping weight might get you back to normal blood sugar levels, which tends to why people have success on plant based diets. But for most of us it doesn't help.

    If you want to try the plant base route, the test your self 30, 60, 90 mins and 2 hours after a meal and see what happens or get a freelibre. If you spike in blood glucose goes down quickly, or it doesn't doesn't give you much of a spike your on to a winner. If not you'll know.

    I made a food diary of what works for me, but testing and see results. It help bet my blood glucose into normal level in 10 weeks. So I do think testing and food diary is a good rapport. But find what works for you.
     
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  11. Goonergal

    Goonergal Type 2 · Moderator
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    Please explain this acronym.
     
  12. Beating-My-Betes

    Beating-My-Betes · Well-Known Member

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    Whole-food, High-carb, Low-fat, Plant-based diet. A mouthful, whichever way it's written :)
     
  13. Mbaker

    Mbaker Type 2 (in remission!) · Well-Known Member

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    The NICE guidelines state a non-diabetic response is under 7.8 (https://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes_care/blood-sugar-level-ranges.html):

    upload_2021-3-25_17-33-2.png

    You can hear a practicing Doctor state this in the video referenced here - circa 11 mins 20 seconds:
    https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/chip-shop-chips.180713/#post-2382767

    I don't understand your next point, but in general it is obvious and proven that a high carb meal produces a higher spike than a protein / fat lower carb; this has been proven scientifically and with anecdotes (some practical Libre results in "Fat Fiction" on Amazon). It is well known that a HbA1c can be misleading as to how it was achieved. David Bobbett, the backer of Ivor Cummins had a great A1c (I think from memory 5.2), but closer inspection showed massive post-prandial diabetic spiking, anyway this is a mute point as it is Cyrus who offers up the 175.
    Although this point is around Mastering Diabetes a colleague of his also John McDougall, accepts high sugars (which I am saying is not acceptable):
    https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2009nl/dec/diabetes.htm

    upload_2021-3-25_17-50-14.png

    The after photos are much better than the before's, the fat loss will make them much healthier than the starting point, so I congratulate them on that, but I have to be honest and say the results I see on YouTube are a concern, and the long term Doctors do not in my view look healthy.

    I believe the 20% who I feel could get these numbers is over generous for those who specifically have Type 2, we don't know the full regime, i.e. are they severely calorie restricted or able to eat like me (2 course breakfast, up to 3 course dinner). I think this is relevant as many including me have tried clean higher carb and go backwards. My rationale is that I believe for "regular" Type 2 which is a carbohydrate intolerance, I can't see how this can be fixed on carbs, but some Type 2 is not "regular", so there needs to be room for those outliers.

    I would recommend you view Paul Saladino's YouTube discussion with Joel Fuhrman; I feel sure you know of Joel, his statements on the types of foods on Master Diabetes is interesting, considering he is on the same side:
    "Animal-Based vs. Plant-Based, a friendly debate with Joel Fuhrman, MD"
     
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  14. Hotpepper20000

    Hotpepper20000 · Well-Known Member

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    You seem to be a strong advocate of this way of eating to treat diabetes.
    Have you had success with it?
     
  15. Beating-My-Betes

    Beating-My-Betes · Well-Known Member

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    Thanks! Will try to get through the links over the weekend.
     
  16. Beating-My-Betes

    Beating-My-Betes · Well-Known Member

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    Let's just say I'm a work-in-progress ;)
     
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  17. lulu81

    lulu81 · Member

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    The m.d course in terms of results are indeed attractive . Their published audit indicates the degree of results that have raised interest with an average of 17lbs weight loss, in 40wks , reduction in hba1c of 2%! Not to mention the reduction in insulin resistance and LDL that plant based diets often show.
     
  18. Hotpepper20000

    Hotpepper20000 · Well-Known Member

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    Could you provide some references for this please?
     
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  19. Oldvatr

    Oldvatr Type 2 · Expert

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    I take as my yardstick the number of success stories in the specific subthread on this forum that attribute their success to a WFPB diet plan. I also note but do not tabulate the number of people on this forum general sections that declare that they are ex-PB advocates having given up in favour of a more successful dietary approach which is normally a Low Carb type diet.

    I also use my own personal experiences, where a vegan curry put me in hospital ER with a suspected heart attack, and also the time when a Michael Greger vegan stew made my sugar levels jump into the 30+ mmol/l. Note: a normal omnivore stew hardly raises my levels at all.

    My wife had a friend who was a staunch follower of said Greger, and she advised my son to go WFPB to cure his cancer, and also my wife was advised to go WFPB to cure her Parkinson's. These ''cures' are dangerous, and I now include the claims being made for curing diabetes in the same portfolio. The above-mentioned friend is now a convert to LCHF after seeing my journey with the proof from both my SMBG and GP tests. She no longer pesters me to go vegan and she admits to enjoying the sins of the flesh.
     
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  20. ziggy_w

    ziggy_w Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Hi @lulu81,

    I see this is your first post. Welcome to the forum.

    Could you tell us about your experience with a plant-based diet? What were your levels when you were first diagnosed with diabetes? How has the diet helped you? What are your levels now? Are you still on any diabetes-related medication?

    Always interested in members' experiences of what works for them.
     
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