Did a plant base diet ever work for metabolic syndromes?

[Oldvatr]

Could you provide some references for this please?

https://www.masteringdiabetes.org/bookinfo/
The website here shows all the relevant references in the book.
Note: Mastering Diabetes was originally aimed at T1D and T1.5 children in Australia, and was intended as a reference book for teachers in schools. It has since jumped into the popular media outlets as a general cure all. Not sure how valid that move really is without checking all the references.

I query this one for a start.
"Insulin resistance is a major condition that underlies many chronic metabolic diseases, including (but not limited to) type 1 diabetes, type 1.5 diabetes, type 2 diabetes, prediabetes, gestational diabetes, coronary artery disease, atherosclerosis, cancer, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, obesity, polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS), peripheral neuropathy, retinopathy, Alzheimer’s disease, chronic kidney disease, and fatty liver disease."

Seems that most of these references are aimed at insulin users, or at best T2D transitioning to insulin from orals. Certainly Chapter 1 and 2 concentrate on insulin users. Haven't delved too deeply yet

 

[Deleted member 532959]

https://www.masteringdiabetes.org/bookinfo/
The website here shows all the relevant references in the book.
Note: Mastering Diabetes was originally aimed at T1D and T1.5 children in Australia, and was intended as a reference book for teachers in schools. It has since jumped into the popular media outlets as a general cure all. Not sure how valid that move really is without checking all the references.

I query this one for a start.
"Insulin resistance is a major condition that underlies many chronic metabolic diseases, including (but not limited to) type 1 diabetes, type 1.5 diabetes, type 2 diabetes, prediabetes, gestational diabetes, coronary artery disease, atherosclerosis, cancer, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, obesity, polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS), peripheral neuropathy, retinopathy, Alzheimer’s disease, chronic kidney disease, and fatty liver disease."

Seems that most of these references are aimed at insulin users, or at best T2D transitioning to insulin from orals. Certainly Chapter 1 and 2 concentrate on insulin users. Haven't delved too deeply yet

If you go back to the bottom of my first post in this thread, I attached a document with links to a lot of success/in-progress testimonials. There are accounts from mainly type I & II, but with a few others thrown in there. So it isn't really just about insulin users, although the type I results are particularly interesting when it comes to watching carb-to-insulin ratios tighten up, in response to huge increases in carb input.

 

[bulkbiker]

particularly interesting when it comes to watching carb-to-insulin ratios tighten up, in response to huge increases in carb input.

Tighten-up but not decrease I imagine?

I'd guess the absence of fat in a high carb fruit based diet would lead to more accurate predictions of insulin requirements?

 

[Deleted member 532959]

Tighten-up but not decrease I imagine?

I seem to remember seeing a couple of cases where insulin was reduced. But not everyone buys into the idea that insulin is something that, as much as possible, must be avoided. Their focus is to try and remove the obstacles that stop insulin doing it's intended job, effectively.

I'd guess the absence of fat in a high carb fruit based diet would lead to more accurate predictions of insulin requirements?

Firstly - and I'm sure you already understand this - it's impossible to have a no-fat diet. All plant-foods have fats, carbs and protein. If one were to eat their calories in lettuce (assuming, for the sake of example, a 2000 calorie energy balance), the lettuce would provide 380g of carbs, 148g of protein and 36g of fat (13g of that as omega 3's). Turns out that that kind of macro balance (68%C, 17%P, 15%F) is very close to the recommendations of most of the low-fat, plant-based programs. No one would eat that amount of lettuce, but in substituting out for other kinds of lower-fat plant-foods the macros stay pretty similar.

But ultimately, the whole raison d'être of the plant-based protocol is to seek the recreation of an environment in which insulin acts exactly as predicted. And this goes for type II's also.

 

[Oldvatr]

If you go back to the bottom of my first post in this thread, I attached a document with links to a lot of success/in-progress testimonials. There are accounts from mainly type I & II, but with a few others thrown in there. So it isn't really just about insulin users, although the type I results are particularly interesting when it comes to watching carb-to-insulin ratios tighten up, in response to huge increases in carb input.

The problem with testimonials such as the document you shared here, is that (a) the audience is a cohort, in that it is a captive audience of the converted. (b) People who have bad results or who hit problems generally do not post this in a testimonials section of a website. (c) Neither of these websites used as a source is likely to print any such adverse comments anyway. So this source of information is selective and can be considered partisan.

The links I provided are to publicly published, usually peer-reviewed, scientific papers that are being claimed as providing proof to statements being made by the authors of the book.

One thing to consider is that T2D is until recently considered a one-way ticket to insulin therapy, as laid out in the NHS and NICE guidelines to GP's and HCP's. The majority of T2D, I would hazard a guess, are elderly, and insulin users. People who are insulin users are better equipped to deal with a high carb diet than those on orals or unmedicated.

Insulin Resistance and NAFLD are indeed being associated strongly with Type 2 diabetes but are not as far as I can see linked in the same way to Type 1 or 1.5. So is the MD book correctly referencing research to studies into IR and NAFLD in the opening chapters where T2D is clearly being mentioned in the same breath as shown in the quote I posted. There are also claims for cancer, and Alzheimers and COPD et al being made in that quote, but I see no scientific references being made in the referenced studies to relevant papers. But I have seen WFPB advocates making the same claims in this Forum and elsewhere, but never with any backing evidence. When I ask for such evidence, I am generally met with silence or more testimonials. Or glossy sales videos.

 

[Oldvatr]

I am going to go out on a limb here. One thing to consider about the PB diet (and most other diets as well) is that by stepping away from modern food processing one avoids what may actually be what is causing T2D or obesity in this modern era. I am talking about the additives that many modern foods use that our forebears did not have in theirs.

We are talking removal of added sugar, of course, for one. Firstly by sugar the labelling regulations define this as sucrose content, and manufacturers can use fructose instead as demonstrated by the sudden increase in HFCS use (High Fructose Corn Syrup) after the war. Also added in the ingredients list but not in the sugar listing are other sugars like Dextrose, Maltose, or their sugar alcohol equivalents Dextrosol, Malitol et al.

Another ingredient that is a possible culprit is highly refined grain products which anyone eating a modern loaf of plasticised bread will avow to. The use of plasticiser is prevalent in many catering products especially bakery products to give long life and soft feel. Chemicals such as Melamine are used.

Another common addition is starch as a bulking agent. Granny used to use cornflour, but modern confectioners and gravy makers use MSG instead. This explains why a pack of frozen beef slices in gravy spikes me, and faggots in gravy are a definite No-no.

We also see an increase in the use of seed oils, which are high in Omega-6. Yes these are PB and replace animal products so are PB compatible, but a proper WFPB diet goes minimal fat so by following that type of diet properly, seed oils become a restricted product along with most of the above.

I can see WFPB working but only by eliminating most of the above from the diet. Apart from the HC content which I find problematic for T2D on orals, I can see the diet being superior to the normal modern diet fare that is generally consumed. So in WFPB vs SAD or EATWELL I back WFPB.

But I have reservations about PB in terms of general nutrition content. B12 has been mentioned in this thread but it is not the only thing that requires supplementation if used long term. I am saddened that the meat substitutes being marketed nowadays are sold on them being textured and coloured and tasting and bleeding similar to products that I use, but they have nothing like the same nutritional value to my body. Even the added heme iron is poorly utilised by my body since it is not in a form that is bio-available, which is why 2 Impossible Burgers provides more than my total RDA needs (on paper that is). They do this to force more of their microbic sludge into my veins to provide haemoglobin. It is noted that vegans are reported to be quite anaemic as a whole.

Can PB cure diabetes? I find the jury is still out on this. When there are proper studies giving believable evidence similar to the Roy Taylor Newcastle study, then we can make informed decisions. Till then the moon is made of cream cheese, (and there is evidence for that on the internet, it seems)

 

[Oldvatr]

I placed this originally in another thread, but it seems to be relevant to this discussion too
"Think this may encourage some to reduce fruit intake
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/88/5/1189/4649075

OK, it's rat studies again. But it does explain the differences in human reactions in the text.

It also explains how a fruit-based PB diet appears to work, whereas it seems that it causes us damage in the long term."

I might add that raw fruit has a high starch content, which gradually gets converted into glucose as the fruit ripens. So green bananas may have relatively no effect, but yellow/black ones will shoot the bgl up a treat.

 

[Hotpepper20000]

I seem to remember seeing a couple of cases where insulin was reduced. But not everyone buys into the idea that insulin is something that, as much as possible, must be avoided. Their focus is to try and remove the obstacles that stop insulin doing it's intended job, effectively.



Firstly - and I'm sure you already understand this - it's impossible to have a no-fat diet. All plant-foods have fats, carbs and protein. If one were to eat their calories in lettuce (assuming, for the sake of example, a 2000 calorie energy balance), the lettuce would provide 380g of carbs, 148g of protein and 36g of fat (13g of that as omega 3's). Turns out that that kind of macro balance (68%C, 17%P, 15%F) is very close to the recommendations of most of the low-fat, plant-based programs. No one would eat that amount of lettuce, but in substituting out for other kinds of lower-fat plant-foods the macros stay pretty similar.

But ultimately, the whole raison d'être of the plant-based protocol is to seek the recreation of an environment in which insulin acts exactly as predicted. And this goes for type II's also.

But all this is a theory for you isn’t?
You have no idea how this works for you personally?

 

[lulu81]

Articles published are noted as peer reviewed, and is is therefore of a high standard,

Sarver, J., Khambatta, C., Barbaro, R., Chavan, B., & Drozek, D. (2019). Retrospective Evaluation of an Online Diabetes Health Coaching Program: A Pilot Study. American Journal of Lifestyle Medicine, 1
Or
Sarver, Jordan, Cyrus Khambatta, Robby Barbaro, Bhakti Chavan, and David Drozek. "Retrospective Evaluation of an Online Diabetes Health Coaching Program: A Pilot Study." American Journal of Lifestyle Medicine (2019)1.

In comparison to the insulin expert programme which states, on avg, weight loss is 1kg, no lowering of LDL and hba1c improved by 0.6, over 14 mths.
Ive uploaded the expert paper.

Id love to here peoples opinion on the insulin xpert?
Ive not made the leap to plant based in terms of diabetes. Im considering options. With the recent papers on heme iron and resistance, low carb High protein doesn't seem to be the best advice in the long run. No valid studies over 2 yrs yet support the low carb. Info on directclinicaltrial.org.uk
The direct study is most cited but things so not get better in the findings.
Patients either stay the same or the Hba1c worsens. I think we are all just searching for the best decisions.
Im always keen to know more......

 

[Oldvatr]

Articles published are noted as peer reviewed, and is is therefore of a high standard,

Sarver, J., Khambatta, C., Barbaro, R., Chavan, B., & Drozek, D. (2019). Retrospective Evaluation of an Online Diabetes Health Coaching Program: A Pilot Study. American Journal of Lifestyle Medicine, 1
Or
Sarver, Jordan, Cyrus Khambatta, Robby Barbaro, Bhakti Chavan, and David Drozek. "Retrospective Evaluation of an Online Diabetes Health Coaching Program: A Pilot Study." American Journal of Lifestyle Medicine (2019)1.

In comparison to the insulin expert programme which states, on avg, weight loss is 1kg, no lowering of LDL and hba1c improved by 0.6, over 14 mths.
Ive uploaded the expert paper.

Id love to here peoples opinion on the insulin xpert?
Ive not made the leap to plant based in terms of diabetes. Im considering options. With the recent papers on heme iron and resistance, low carb High protein doesn't seem to be the best advice in the long run. No valid studies over 2 yrs yet support the low carb. Info on directclinicaltrial.org.uk
The direct study is most cited but things so not get better in the findings.
Patients either stay the same or the Hba1c worsens. I think we are all just searching for the best decisions.
Im always keen to know more......

Here is the portal for the paper, but be aware it is behind a paywall.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1559827619879106
This is the review of the original MD trial, but please note that only 8.9% of those participants bothered to give replies to the review. The rest did not bother, or may not have had success worth reporting. Sadly some of the original trial cohort will have died in the 10 years in between.

The abstract gives the proportion of those 8.9% responders who had benefited, so when that is taken into account, it is a very small proportion of the original trial that are reporting success.


Edit to add correction:
The figures you quote for Hba1c and weight loss come from the X=Pert paper, not the two entry papers listed and as discussed above, and these gains are small potatoes. The X-Pert activity is purely a lifestyle intervention with online tuition and support and is not diet specific. The HbA1c drop of 0.6% is not impressive. The 1 kg weight loss is tiny. If those really were the notable takeaway points then I am not impressed by X-Pert.

My own journey shows that Low Carbing dropped my HbA1c from 106 down to 40 (UK units) within a couple of months, and my weight dropped from 17 stone to 10 stone. My wife who is non diabetic shared my diet, and she dropped from 18 stone to 10 stone too.

Here is a similar before-after study using lifestyle change intervention only in a small group of motivated T2 patients in a carehome setting (n=74) where the interventions are not defined, and therefore may or may not use Plant Based diet (but not essentially all on this intervention per se).
https://nutrition.bmj.com/content/2/1/43
As can be seen, a better lifestyle and exercise achieved better results than the X-Pert program, it would seem.

 

[Geordie_P]

Here's the thing. When I eat carbs, my blood readings go through the roof. When I don't eat carbs, they don't.
You can point me to vegan activists all you want: fruit, wholegrain etc. My blood glucose meter says it all- meat and eggs, no rise. Plant based and whole-grain= double figure blood sugar readings. If a vegan diet actually helped 'beat my betes' I'd happily never eat meat or dairy again, but it's an observable, measurable, demonstrable fact that starchy food is *terrible* for me, and eating eggs and fish helps me keep my cholesterol figures and blood sugars in an acceptable range.

 

[lulu81]

The loses quoted are from the insulin expert. Not m.d.

 

[Goonergal]

In comparison to the insulin expert programme which states, on avg, weight loss is 1kg, no lowering of LDL and hba1c improved by 0.6, over 14 mths.
Ive uploaded the expert paper.

The loses quoted are from the insulin expert. Not m.d.

I’m not sure why you’re referring to the study you uploaded as the ‘insulin expert’ programme. The x-pert programme is a dietary/lifestyle intervention for type 2 diabetes and a very reputable one.

 

[lulu81]

Slightly concerned, as the results ive quoted from insulin expert state the programme makes a difference. However these are the stats in the article I added on prior post. As below. Ty

 

[lulu81]

I’m not sure why you’re referring to the study you uploaded as the ‘insulin expert’ programme. The x-pert programme is a dietary/lifestyle intervention for type 2 diabetes and a very reputable one.

Im referring to two programmes, one thats compiled by dieticians in the uk advising low carb, the other does not. Im also looking for peoples opinions on the xpert if they have taken part.ty

 

[Oldvatr]

The loses quoted are from the insulin expert. Not m.d.

The name Cyrus Khambatta, as referenced at the entry of that post is often called The Insulin Expert since he is a Professor Emeritus and his specialty is IR in T2D. He is well known and often referred to by those who follow and support Plant Based lifestyles. If you look at the referenced studies listed in the Pilot Study Retrospective in the paper that carries his name (either reference since they are both the same paper) then there are the familiar WFPB celebrities trotted out, and it is obvious that these papers are referring to PB intervention, without comparing it to any other intervention strategy.

So no wonder we are confused since the X-Pert paper is a completely different beastie indeed. So the comments I closed with on results are applicable to X-Pert, not the ones mentioned in your posting. The book for X-Pert by Trudi Deakin is at issue 11 now. Trudi is a renowned dietician, but as far as I know, would not be considered an Insulin Expert in Diabetes care. Recently Trudi has strongly supported Low Carb diets, but the NHS quango who run X=Pert courses do not.

Recently X-Pert has changed its stance on diets.(2020)
Perhaps this is a better link to what they are offering now
https://www.xperthealth.org.uk/x-pe...pleish-summary-of-our-new-position-statement/

 

[bulkbiker]

Articles published are noted as peer reviewed, and is is therefore of a high standard,

Sarver, J., Khambatta, C., Barbaro, R., Chavan, B., & Drozek, D. (2019). Retrospective Evaluation of an Online Diabetes Health Coaching Program: A Pilot Study. American Journal of Lifestyle Medicine, 1
Or
Sarver, Jordan, Cyrus Khambatta, Robby Barbaro, Bhakti Chavan, and David Drozek. "Retrospective Evaluation of an Online Diabetes Health Coaching Program: A Pilot Study." American Journal of Lifestyle Medicine (2019)1.

In comparison to the insulin expert programme which states, on avg, weight loss is 1kg, no lowering of LDL and hba1c improved by 0.6, over 14 mths.
Ive uploaded the expert paper.

Id love to here peoples opinion on the insulin xpert?
Ive not made the leap to plant based in terms of diabetes. Im considering options. With the recent papers on heme iron and resistance, low carb High protein doesn't seem to be the best advice in the long run. No valid studies over 2 yrs yet support the low carb. Info on directclinicaltrial.org.uk
The direct study is most cited but things so not get better in the findings.
Patients either stay the same or the Hba1c worsens. I think we are all just searching for the best decisions.
Im always keen to know more......

Are you speaking from a T1 or T2 perspective please?

This could make a huge difference.

 

[Ceppo]

https://www.xperthealth.org.uk/

Lots of very useful information for T1 and T2 and LCHF in their website, forum and publications. ‘Eat Fat’ is really useful. They are based in my town but my GPS and DN seem oblivious to them. I have been wondering about a coaching session with them.

 

[Oldvatr]

https://www.xperthealth.org.uk/
https://www.xperthealth.org.uk/
Lots of very useful information for T1 and T2 and LCHF in their website, forum and publications. ‘Eat Fat’ is really useful. They are based in my town but my GPS and DN seem oblivious to them. I have been wondering about a coaching session with them.

Do they offer any Plant-Based solutions?

 

[Ceppo]

I believe there are some. Their forum is interesting it’s more Q & A. There is also a recipe collection you can browse.