Do you guys agree with this doctor to take NO medication?

[john5220]

He says Beta Blockers only work for 1 in every 1000 people in actually preventing stroke etc and is therefore almost useless. He says companies lie to doctors and medical journals about drugs

He also says that taking BP medication actually increases your risk of heart attack.

https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2009nl/nov/bp.htm

 

[Freema]

How could we know better than researchers and science ? That's the reason science research and statistics ought be made by neutral scientists and NOT by the companies that want to earn billions from their product. But it is hard to know if the doctor here is right or wrong

 

[Squire Fulwood]

Obviously medication is necessary for someone who is sick if it can be demonstrated that it does them good. My problem is the great number of different pills I have been prescribed over the last seven years when all I actually needed to do was to change my diet to achieve a major improvement.

I have had adverse side effects from most of them and none of the claimed benefits. I am puzzled by the fact that the side effects have been quite similar from all of the pills but I don't know how that works. Maybe there is something similar in all pills which my body objects to.

There has been a tendency to prescribe pills for me when, apart from the diet issue, I was well and didn't feel ill at all. My current condition is worse than when diagnosed so the question is whether that is due to pills or age.

 

[tim2000s]

What you'll find is that the research data from most studies will show that the relative risk of an adverse event when taking medication is reduced.

If it's reduced by 20%, that might seem a lot, but if you take a look at the absolute numbers, let's say that for heart attacks, the probability of having one is that 1 in 200 normal individuals will have a fatal heart attack, then the question is, what does a 20% reduction mean in that context? It means that if the entire population were to have the drugs, the absolute risk would go from 1 in 200 to 1 in 240.

Writing that differently, you would say that without the drugs, 0.5% of people would be at risk of a heart attack. With the drugs. 0.42% of people would be at risk.

So the question is, with that change in odds, is it worthwhile?

 

[Lamont D]

Obviously medication is necessary for someone who is sick if it can be demonstrated that it does them good. My problem is the great number of different pills I have been prescribed over the last seven years when all I actually needed to do was to change my diet to achieve a major improvement.

I have had adverse side effects from most of them and none of the claimed benefits. I am puzzled by the fact that the side effects have been quite similar from all of the pills but I don't know how that works. Maybe there is something similar in all pills which my body objects to.

There has been a tendency to prescribe pills for me when, apart from the diet issue, I was well and didn't feel ill at all. My current condition is worse than when diagnosed so the question is whether that is due to pills or age.

The reason why you have the same side effects is that most tablets are made up of the same ingredients, with either an added chemical or a different recipe.
I can only take certain drugs because of the effect it would have on my bloods and my sensitivity to certain ingredients.
A lot of tablets contain lactose, and that's a baddie for me!

 

[Lamont D]

An afterthought, different companies use different recipes for a named tablet as well!

 

[Squire Fulwood]

The reason why you have the same side effects is that most tablets are made up of the same ingredients, with either an added chemical or a different recipe.

Logic says you are right about that but DN doesn't seem to notice and still tries to make me take pills. I am happier and better without them though.

 

[noblehead]

NO

 

[Daibell]

Hi. Certainly it's always worth checking Dr Google when being prescribed a drug to see what it does, how it works and what the downside is. So much of what we are told is driven by bad statistics, by drug companies or university researchers funded by drug companies or the food industry. Malcolm Kendrick's book 'Doctoring Data' is worth a read. I take minimum dose Ramipril for BP. It helps a little and my BP is below 140/80, but if my BP was a lot higher I would want to know why and not just take the drug.

 

[JohnEGreen]

Err no and I'm not going to buy his books or dvds either mind you there is something to say for a nice healthy diet of starchy veg and tons of fresh fruit.

 

[AtkinsMo]

What the researchers do not take into account is that we are all going to die anyway. Most of us would not willingly take a drug that reduces our quality of life in exchange for a few extra days or even weeks of life, but our doctors are so addicted to prescribing drugs that we are mostly not given alternatives.

Most drugs are tested for their efficacy in producing soft end points, like reducing cholesterol, reducing blood pressure etc. It should be compulsory to follow through research to the hard end point, death.

@JohnEGreen Malcolm Kendrick does not advocate a high carb diet with lots of fruit, where did you get that idea?

 

[JohnEGreen]

The link points to Dr MacDouglall news letter which links to here

https://www.drmcdougall.com

Where I found this

"
The McDougall Program uses a pure-vegetarian diet based on starchy vegetables, plus fresh or frozen fruits and other vegetables. If you follow the diet strictly for more than three years, or if you are pregnant or nursing, take a minimum of 5 micrograms (mcg) of supplemental vitamin B12 each day.
"

 

[AtkinsMo]

Sorry, misunderstood, must confess, didn't follow the link.
Did anybody watch the BBC 1 programme last week on trying to reduce prescription medication - might be interesting. I enjoyed the first part. I wonder if one of the programmes will cover diabetes. I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[zand]

It's obviously sensible to keep drugs to a minimum. It's also true that some will take preventative drugs that they don't actually need. However, to say No to all drugs? That's taking it a bit far. It's up to the individual to listen to the risks and then weigh up if the drugs are right for them personally. My ultimate aim has always been to be drug free. Once upon a time I was taking 6 prescription drugs. With my GP's agreement I gradually cut them all out and remained drug free for a couple of years. However, my BP has risen again, I still have insulin resistance and am depressed. Consequently I asked to be put on a BP drug once more (I once took 4 at a time). I also asked for an anti depressant and to be put back onto Metformin again. I consider the benefit of these 3 to be greater than the risks, but am looking to be drug free again in the future.

As for Beta Blockers I had an irregular and fast heartbeat, so these were definitely what I needed at the time.

 

[Dark Horse]

He says Beta Blockers only work for 1 in every 1000 people in actually preventing stroke etc and is therefore almost useless. He says companies lie to doctors and medical journals about drugs

He also says that taking BP medication actually increases your risk of heart attack.

https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2009nl/nov/bp.htm

From the link you gave:-

• Rather than saying taking BP medication increases your risk of heart attack, he says, "avoid overly aggressive treatment. In general, reducing blood pressure below 140/90 mmHg with medication is not beneficial and actually will increase the risk of heart attacks, strokes, and death"
• Rather than saying take no medication, he says, "Unfortunately, not every patient experiences the reduction in numbers they desire. Despite their best efforts some people may need medications."

I think his underlying message is: where possible, try relevant lifestyle interventions before resorting to drugs. This is essentially what the NICE guidelines for diabetes say, although reports from some forum users suggest that GPs don't always follow this guidance.

 

[john5220]

Ok here is what I don't get, the BP medications are about as 0.5% effective therefore not even worth it and I wouldn't care about living a few weeks more in the end or heck a year or 2 I wouldn't care.

But since I have been taking Atenolol my pressure has dropped from the regular 150/98 to an average 110/69 now. Therefore Atenolol is doing me very good yeah? One thing with me diet don't work for BP but it works great for sugar.

Maybe when I drop my 100 pounds of fat my pressure will go down and I can get off the meds yeah?

But I suppose this doctor is saying my body can handle high blood pressure and going from high to low blood pressure does not add longer life? basically high blood pressure isn't a big deal as we think it is right?

 

[Dark Horse]

Ok here is what I don't get, the BP medications are about as 0.5% effective therefore not even worth it and I wouldn't care about living a few weeks more in the end or heck a year or 2 I wouldn't care.

But since I have been taking Atenolol my pressure has dropped from the regular 150/98 to an average 110/69 now. Therefore Atenolol is doing me very good yeah? One thing with me diet don't work for BP but it works great for sugar.

Maybe when I drop my 100 pounds of fat my pressure will go down and I can get off the meds yeah?

But I suppose this doctor is saying my body can handle high blood pressure and going from high to low blood pressure does not add longer life? basically high blood pressure isn't a big deal as we think it is right?

It's not just about dying a few weeks early, heart attacks and strokes can cause years of disability. From the link you gave, even that doctor would agree that treating a BP of 150/98 would be worthwhile. However, he is just one doctor whereas Nice guidelines are developed from a consensus and are based on the best available evidence https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg127/chapter/1-Guidance

If you want to try lifestyle changes, there is some advice here:- http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...ure/in-depth/high-blood-pressure/art-20046974 As you say, weight loss may help.

 

[MikePea]

Stange that people rant on about this drug and that drug, but say nothing about their choice regarding the type and quantity of food they eat.
One hears that a certain drug is good or bad. But this also applies to the food we eat.
If more attention was paid to our diet we probably would not need so many drugs.
May I recommend that food manufacturers research what people need rather than what they can sell.
Or is that hoping too much ?

 

[AndBreathe]

Whilst I am passionately meds free, I am open minded to the potential that I may not be able to maintain this situation life-long. My OH is also totally meds free at 69.

Without doubt we have each been fortunate not to have suffered any condition requiring us to have longer term medication. For me, should anything be diagnosed, I will always investigate a meds-free approach in the first instance. Recently I suffered a UTI, which I managed to (apparently) resolve once, but when it came back I accepted antibiotics for 3 days to knock it on the head and minimise the chances of the condition becoming either chronic or more serious. Of course, it sometimes takes as long to get over the antibiotics as it does the infection.

I was pleased last night to see the diabetic chappie on there who wants to to reduce/be rid of his medication, and looked to be making decent progress (I was multi-tasking) so will re-watch that part some time.

I think each time medication is being considered it is critical we each have our say in state our preferences. The overbearing sentiment from both these programmes so far has been that Joe Public wants a quick, minimal effort fix to any given situation, and I think to an extent the medical profession are feeding that sentiment by prescribing as widely as they do.

15 prescription items a year for every man, woman and child in UK? Who's having mine?

 

[AtkinsMo]

It's not just about dying a few weeks early, heart attacks and strokes can cause years of disability. From the link you gave, even that doctor would agree that treating a BP of 150/98 would be worthwhile. However, he is just one doctor whereas Nice guidelines are developed from a consensus and are based on the best available evidence https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg127/chapter/1-Guidance

If you want to try lifestyle changes, there is some advice here:- http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...ure/in-depth/high-blood-pressure/art-20046974 As you say, weight loss may help.

The problem is, I don't believe, at all, that NICE guidelines are based on a consensus and the best possible evidence, because I absolutely believe that much medical research is fatally flawed and unduly influenced by commercial interests. A quick look at the Mayo guidelines reveals, to my mind, some good advice, but some bad, that has gotten us where we are today. Yes, we can all agree, stop smoking, exercise more, avoid stress, but I would absolutely disagree with the dietary guidelines - a low fat diet? Eating whole grains and fruit? I don't think so! The thing that lowered my blood pressure spectacularly was a high fat diet, no grains, no fruit, aka Atkins, LCHF.

So from years of being on Atenolol (which gave me awful swollen ankles and restricted my mobility - counter protective in terms of heart health) and Ramipril, I am now drug free. Hibiscus tea, I think, helps, as does ground flax seeds.

And following a LCHF diet you NEED salt, just make sure it's good quality, natural unrefined sea salt. Again, all of the research on the harmful effects of salt were conducted using normal refined table salt, I don't have that in the house. My salt is bought from the producers, on the salt pans of the Ile de Re, and lovely stuff it is.