Doctors need to earn our trust

[ButtterflyLady]

A lot of us here have been let down by our doctors, when they either: failed to diagnose or treat a condition properly; overtreated us, particularly with drugs that were unnecessary and had bad side effects or risks; or pressured us, talked down to us, or dismissed our knowledge and preferences.

I think they sometimes forget that they need to earn our trust, and when they get it wrong, they make it very hard for us to have confidence in them in the future. Aside from the physical and psychological harm that their mistakes cause us, there is also the fearful, isolated feeling we get, when we have health issues but we don't feel like they, or other doctors, can and will help us. I've experienced that many times and it is an awful feeling.

If we were tested for diabetes and they failed to tell us for months or years (eg prediabetes), or they failed to tell us how much we were at risk and what we needed to do about it, or focussed on drugs instead of diet and exercise, we feel rightfully angry and hurt. The challenge is then: what happens the next time there is a new set of symptoms or a diagnosis? Can we trust them? Should we trust them?

Based on past performance, we can't fully trust them. But we still need them. We might learn an enormous amount about diabetes, but that is only one condition. What happens when we get something else and there isn't a forum like this one, and useful information about it is hard to find? We need a way to benefit from their knowledge, and their ability to refer us to the right people if needed. But we also need to stay vigilant, and question their statements and recommendations, while not alienating them by being too obvious about it.

Some doctors are the kind of people who will feel threatened when a patient asks even a basic, reasonable question about something. Those doctors we should probably fire, if we can. Doctors at the other end of the spectrum will welcome our questions and even our contributions. Those are the keepers, and we need more of them, in general practice and in every specialty.

There is also the opportunity to make a formal complaint, and I think complaints can really improve the quality of the services for everyone. Incompetent or arrogant doctors need to be held accountable. Supportive, caring, and respectful doctors need to be celebrated and appreciated.

What are your thoughts on these issues?

 

[photognut]

I've changed doctors surgery due the consistent incompetence and misdiagnoses leaving me with little faith or trust left. Saying that, my new GP is very sweet, nice and caring but still restrained within a tick box system. She is currently excited about FODMAP research....
The evolution and development of vaccines has been an enormous benefit to global health - I still can't help feeling we have entered the era of regression and I'm not blaming the medical profession for this! We have become a society revolving around convenience food. The days that witnessed transferable life skills of how to grow your own veg to cooking it being passed from generation to generation has been interrupted. My personal view, the medical profession is dealing with an array of diseases manifesting from malnutrition and manufactured toxicities making it impossible for them to be effective in diagnosis, let alone the correction of it.
The place I lay may trust is in the Paramedics, Surgeons and Nurses that put you back together, pulling you out of crisis - providing you get there in time. Then you have to help yourself too

 

[ButtterflyLady]

I've changed doctors surgery due the consistent incompetence and misdiagnoses leaving me with little faith or trust left. Saying that, my new GP is very sweet, nice and caring but still restrained within a tick box system. She is currently excited about FODMAP research....
The evolution and development of vaccines has been an enormous benefit to global health - I still can't help feeling we have entered the era of regression and I'm not blaming the medical profession for this! We have become a society revolving around convenience food. The days that witnessed transferable life skills of how to grow your own veg to cooking it being passed from generation to generation has been interrupted. My personal view, the medical profession is dealing with an array of diseases manifesting from malnutrition and manufactured toxicities making it impossible for them to be effective in diagnosis, let alone the correction of it.
The place I lay may trust is in the Paramedics, Surgeons and Nurses that put you back together, pulling you out of crisis - providing you get there in time. Then you have to help yourself too

I'm glad you changed to a doctors surgery you feel better about. I have done the same thing too. They still make mistakes but they are smaller ones, in my experience. I try to understand everything they say and I ask questions. My current GP is also sweet, nice and caring... so much so that when she empathises with me it really shows in her face. I sometimes wish she would be more neutral-looking, lol. I shouldn't complain... some doctors look at you like they don't give a **** about your symptoms. They sure are a mixed bunch, like any profession... I need them, so I have to try and make the best of it.

 

[4ratbags]

I too changed doctors as I just felt let down, my old Dr told me "you are doing great but you will end up on insulin one day". I just thought that was so ignorant. I love the new surgery though, I just ring up and book myself in for my bloods every 6 months, the nurse is lovely and pleasant and we always have a good chat and I feel confident about talking to the Dr if need be. Since being diagnosed I have noticed that I have become very assertive which some people aren't that happy about but too bad, I'm happy so that's what counts. It seems to be common place with everything nowadays that standards aren't as high as they used to be.

 

[graj0]

I wonder how big the problem really is? My present GPs are great and have been very supportive when I told that them that despite NICE, NHS, Eatwell plate, I was going low carb. They just warned me of potential hypos while taking gliclazide and lowering carbs. Very wise, helped me drop Gliclazide all together. I try to work with my GPs rather than it being a fight for my rights. Same goes for when I stopped taking statins. I'm not sure that we're in a position to think anybody who has spent a good many years studying medicine, working in hospitals before even specialising as a GP should have to earn our trust. I don't think we have an option when we're ill. Only a thought.

 

[Enclave]

I have never known the wife go and see our Dr ... She cannot trust them and no matter how Unwel she is will not let me phone for a Dr ... She supports my need for Drs and yes I have had some dreadful advice and treatment from them.
The wife says that doctors are just people that are doing their job ... They have off days and people they will dislike and not want to be seeing ... Guess I am one of the disliked people by my Drs. The wife is one of the unknowns ....

 

[donnellysdogs]

After not being told of a likely intolerance to aspartame and sweeteners back in 2003 and having a further 12 years of chronic pain and endless tests unecessarily I will never trust any doctors knowledge. The GP practice at the time failed to put on my medical notes and tell me.
It was only by asking to see my medical records that my current practice set about reviewing them before I was allowed to see them. They informed me that this note from a consultant had been missed..
The artificial ingredients was exactly my troubles...

I have moved a lot since 2003. I have had numerous doctors, tests, consultants etc. Not one sugested this.

My present diabetic consultant is making sure now that she talks to people about aspartame poisoning. So this is good.

I still do a lot of voluntary work for my current GP but I do not trust their knowledge.

Saying that, there is a new pieve of software coming out soon that will help them if GP practices take the software. The GPs will be able to lig symptoms etc and it will flag up illnesses to consider that they may not have considered...
Our GPs are going to use this software when it becomes available. They have had an introductory look at it.

It does seem to me though that GPs are using Dr Google a fair bit now as well...

I know they pick up certain illnesses etc.. Ie breast cancer from lumps but too often I have heard of neck cancer not being recognised. Just in the last year I have heard of 3 patients that had it and it was musdiagnosed as enlarged glands....

I accept though that the NHS has given me good care for. 30yrs as a T1 but a lot of that has been due to my management of it, not theirs.

 

[ButtterflyLady]

I wonder how big the problem really is? My present GPs are great and have been very supportive when I told that them that despite NICE, NHS, Eatwell plate, I was going low carb. They just warned me of potential hypos while taking gliclazide and lowering carbs. Very wise, helped me drop Gliclazide all together. I try to work with my GPs rather than it being a fight for my rights. Same goes for when I stopped taking statins. I'm not sure that we're in a position to think anybody who has spent a good many years studying medicine, working in hospitals before even specialising as a GP should have to earn our trust. I don't think we have an option when we're ill. Only a thought.

Of course we have options. Just because we are ill does not mean we should accept everything they say without question. Only in an emergency situation would I do that, and only to the extent necessary according to the circumstances. I have huge respect for their lengthy training and their immense knowledge, which will always be greater than mine. However, they are human, they make mistakes, and they need us to work as partners and let them know when something is not right. Like any relationship, trust is built over time. It is a mistake to trust them too much or not at all, IMO.

 

[ButtterflyLady]

I have never known the wife go and see our Dr ... She cannot trust them and no matter how Unwel she is will not let me phone for a Dr ... She supports my need for Drs and yes I have had some dreadful advice and treatment from them.
The wife says that doctors are just people that are doing their job ... They have off days and people they will dislike and not want to be seeing ... Guess I am one of the disliked people by my Drs. The wife is one of the unknowns ....

I don't think the dreadful advice and treatment is the result of not being liked by them. It's more likely due to incompetence on their part.

 

[graj0]

Like any relationship, trust is built over time. It is a mistake to trust them too much or not at all, IMO.

I guess our start positions are different, I trust to begin with until proven wrong and I believe that most GPs would expect trust from the start as well. I have been wrong to trust from the beginning which is why my surgery has changed from being a 5 minute walk to a 10 minute drive to a 15 minute drive. The one thing I have noticed is that the GPs in my surgery are all ladies rather than men, they listen and never act like they know it all, so pretty special surgery really and I'm not telling anyone where it is. LOL That is a joke by the way.

 

[donnellysdogs]

I think as far as eatwell plate, better eating,obesity etc its not the GP fault. They believe in what they were taught. Most of them do not really further stretch their learning beyond that.

The NHS is too scared to change its advice.
Imagine people with obesity, dementia, cancer, diabetes being told "sorry you have this "disease" because we advised peoeple to eat cetain foods".... What claims would NHS get then?

So this puts me off trusting GPs. And they do have to earn my trust.

I wouldn't takeny car to a garage with a fault and them say "I think its this, but I can't be sure"- and then drive it away...
I go to a personal,small garage and get the greatest care... Garages like Toyota etc can recall cars and admit there's faults- so why can't the NHS and GPs?

 

[ButtterflyLady]

Good points, @donnellysdogs . I think the NHS and GPs do sometimes admit their mistakes, but the issue of diet causing diseases is very complex. I believe a high carb diet does contribute those diseases you mentioned. But so do genes and other factors. So it would be very difficult to prove in a court that the NHS dietary advice "wholly or substantially" caused the diseases. I think within the next 5 years the results of the studies that are currently underway will force the NHS to change its advice. It may not admit it was wrong, say sorry, or pay anyone money, but at least the next generation will not suffer like we did.

 

[Robinredbreast]

http://www.uhs.nhs.uk/AboutTheTrust...d-diabetes-among-UK-health-professionals.aspx

This article shows how life threatening this condition is. My granddaughter, age 2 1/2 years, nearly lost her life because of a doctor's incompetence in A&E. The doctor was told that her mum had talked to her GP about diabetes because of some symptoms, GP suggested trying to get a urine sample but GD was still in nappies at the time. This was mentioned to the A & E doctor when GD was taken to hospital early evening, doctor seemed to disregard what was said and doctor said it was a virus/viral infection. My GD was sent home, but during the night my GD became incredibly ill, was driven to hospital in her dad's works van,
( luckily they lived very near) and was on the HDU, High Dependency Unit fighting for her life. She had to be stabilised, had tubes coming out of her, lying there with just a nappy on and an oxygen mask strapped to her face and her breathing was laboured. It still upsets so much, but luckily she pulled through and made a good recovery, but sadly some children ( and adults) don't make it, It can be a killer if undiagnosed. A simple finger prick test is all that is initially needed.

 

[ButtterflyLady]

http://www.uhs.nhs.uk/AboutTheTrust...d-diabetes-among-UK-health-professionals.aspx

This article shows how lie threatening this condition is. My granddaughter, age 2 1/2 years, nearly lost her life because of a doctor's incompetence in A&E. The doctor was told that her mum had talked to her GP about diabetes because of some symptoms, GP suggested trying to get a urine sample but GD was still in nappies at the time. This was mentioned to the A & E doctor when GD was taken to hospital early evening, doctor seemed to disregard what was said and doctor said it was a virus/viral infection. My GD was sent home, but during the night my GD became incredibly ill, was driven to hospital in her dad's works van, ( luckily they lived very near) and was on the HDU, High Dependency Unit fighting for her life. She had to be stabilised, had tubes coming out of her, lying there with just a nappy on and an oxygen mask strapped to her face and her breathing was laboured. It still upsets so much, but luckily she pulled through and made a good recovery, but sadly some children ( and adults) don't make it, It can be a killer if undiagnosed. A simple finger prick test is all that is initially needed.

I totally agree. And, so relieved that your dear little GD made it through!

 

[Scardoc]

I think if you fire everyone who has ever had the audacity to make a mistake in any profession then the vast majority of the country will be unemployed.
There’s no news like bad news and yes, some people have suffered terribly through bad advice or mistakes that GP’s have made, but how many as a percentage of all the consultations that have ever taken place? If the media concerned themselves as much with the good news stories then there would be a very different outlook. A GP is a General Practitioner, they spend years being educated in diagnosing and require years of experience in surgeries to gain the knowledge required. They will never have the knowledge that some people believe they should have, it’s not possible.

I think it’s sad when you believe that they need to earn our trust. They have my trust simply by doing the job. I would hate to go home every night having seen the misery and tragedy that they see day after day and question whether I could have done more, seen something quicker or made the right judgement.
Being judgemental and generalising is normally quick to receive a backlash on this forum, except it seems when your attacking the GP’s.

 

[Enclave]

I think if you fire everyone who has ever had the audacity to make a mistake in any profession then the vast majority of the country will be unemployed.
There’s no news like bad news and yes, some people have suffered terribly through bad advice or mistakes that GP’s have made, but how many as a percentage of all the consultations that have ever taken place? If the media concerned themselves as much with the good news stories then there would be a very different outlook. A GP is a General Practitioner, they spend years being educated in diagnosing and require years of experience in surgeries to gain the knowledge required. They will never have the knowledge that some people believe they should have, it’s not possible.

I think it’s sad when you believe that they need to earn our trust. They have my trust simply by doing the job. I would hate to go home every night having seen the misery and tragedy that they see day after day and question whether I could have done more, seen something quicker or made the right judgement.
Being judgemental and generalising is normally quick to receive a backlash on this forum, except it seems when your attacking the GP’s.

I never said that Drs are all unintrested .. But on a personal level I have had some very poor treatment in the past .. One occasion was when my legs were swollen twice their normal size .. My Dr laughed at me and told me to go and get a hobby ... A different Dr adjusted my heart tablets and the problem was solved ... So Drs are just people ..like all people some cannot be bothered to do their job.

 

[ButtterflyLady]

I think if you fire everyone who has ever had the audacity to make a mistake in any profession then the vast majority of the country will be unemployed.
There’s no news like bad news and yes, some people have suffered terribly through bad advice or mistakes that GP’s have made, but how many as a percentage of all the consultations that have ever taken place? If the media concerned themselves as much with the good news stories then there would be a very different outlook. A GP is a General Practitioner, they spend years being educated in diagnosing and require years of experience in surgeries to gain the knowledge required. They will never have the knowledge that some people believe they should have, it’s not possible.

I think it’s sad when you believe that they need to earn our trust. They have my trust simply by doing the job. I would hate to go home every night having seen the misery and tragedy that they see day after day and question whether I could have done more, seen something quicker or made the right judgement.
Being judgemental and generalising is normally quick to receive a backlash on this forum, except it seems when your attacking the GP’s.

I've been careful to make qualified statements so as not to generalise. One person's "being judgmental" is another person's logically assessing a situation. If you have never suffered because of a doctor's mistake, then good for you. Most of us have, and we are prudent to be careful after such experiences. I have tremendous respect for my current GP - she gets it right almost all of the time. But I don't switch off my skepticism just because she is well trained. I think blind faith is foolish.

 

[donnellysdogs]

I've been careful to make qualified statements so as not to generalise. One person's "being judgmental" is another person's logically assessing a situation. If you have never suffered because of a doctor's mistake, then good for you. Most of us have, and we are prudent to be careful after such experiences. I have tremendous respect for my current GP - she gets it right almost all of the time. But I don't switch off my skepticism just because she is well trained. I think blind faith is foolish.

So agree.

 

[Scardoc]

I've been careful to make qualified statements so as not to generalise. One person's "being judgmental" is another person's logically assessing a situation. If you have never suffered because of a doctor's mistake, then good for you. Most of us have, and we are prudent to be careful after such experiences. I have tremendous respect for my current GP - she gets it right almost all of the time. But I don't switch off my skepticism just because she is well trained. I think blind faith is foolish.

I love my postman, he get's it right almost all of the time too. He has got it wrong before though but the difference is he's armed with all of the information he needs, address on the envelope, house number and street name on display. Easy. GP's don't have that luxury, they have a street name with 1000 houses and no house number. It could be 3, but there's a strong chance it could be 424 or.....hang on.....yeah, 782 might be the one.

The human body is far too complex and intricate for anyone to master so when you talk about GP's making mistakes you have to ask whether it really is incompetence. This is the part that annoys me, people see a mistake being made and call it incompetence. You see one doctor they say your fine. You go see another and they diagnose something. Incompetence? Or did the second doctor have experience of the condition and recognise something the first did not? Does that even qualify as a mistake or simple inexperience?

 

[CollieBoy]

I love my postman, he get's it right almost all of the time too. He has got it wrong before though but the difference is he's armed with all of the information he needs, address on the envelope, house number and street name on display. Easy. GP's don't have that luxury, they have a street name with 1000 houses and no house number. It could be 3, but there's a strong chance it could be 424 or.....hang on.....yeah, 782 might be the one.

The human body is far too complex and intricate for anyone to master so when you talk about GP's making mistakes you have to ask whether it really is incompetence. This is the part that annoys me, people see a mistake being made and call it incompetence. You see one doctor they say your fine. You go see another and they diagnose something. Incompetence? Or did the second doctor have experience of the condition and recognise something the first did not? Does that even qualify as a mistake or simple inexperience?

I see where you are coming from @Scardoc, The levels required to deal with ailments such as diabetes require a level of knowledge, that perhaps the ordinary GP is not capable of, and should pass D's on to a specialist team, rather than farm them off to a practice nurse, who specialises in everything (& overworked!)