Doctors..

[zand]

The downside of this site is its a real knocking culture for some.

I'd rather have the doc, than have nothing but google.
Still, each to their own way.
If it makes you feel good in your head that's as important as your body being right.

My last GP (sadly he has left now) used to like it when I googled and went to him with a few possibilities. He said it cut down diagnosis time. We got on really well and he encouraged me to do what was right for me, rather than rigidly sticking to NHS advice.

 

[bulkbiker]

I'd rather have the doc, than have nothing but google.

A bit of a straw man argument as we have both... so why not use both? You do have a tendency to make everything binary when in fact there a multiples of solutions that are applicable to every situation.
Hopefully the days are gone where people blindly follow one GP's instructions without doing some research. I am afraid that they are not though and that for the many who do it's a lottery as to what their GP knows and more importantly doesn't know.

 

[bulkbiker]

We shouldn't call all doctors idiots,

Not sure anyone was.. again you are making claims that no-one else was and then arguing against your own misconception.

 

[KK123]

I think it's all about balance, I listen to my Doctors, I also do my research as best I can and then I make my own decisions. I know from experience (with my Mum's treatment over the years) that many health professionals are useless and indifferent. Had me and my family not intervened and challenged on many occasions she would have been gone well before she should have gone. Be informed, ask questions, 'challenge' what they are telling you and put them on the spot about their decisions. Trouble is, most people look upon them as the Messiah and they then start thinking that they actually are.

 

[lindisfel]

Back on topic then
We shouldn't call all doctors idiots, simply because they are doing their best to keep us alive?
Even if not by googling our treatment

Or is that bad?

Thats's a straw man argument, it is not what anybody suggested!
It needs wisdom and canny to find good doctors and the right advice like the Fat Emporer!
Some people die due to bad medical advice on nutrition. Obesity causes cancer!
D.

 

[JohnEGreen]

A doctor told my mother she had strained her groin in a fall that it would right it's self but to keep mobile and not to use a walking stick as she would come to depend on it.

After twelve weeks of agony it was found that she had fractured her hip, and required a partial hip replacement, About a couple of months after the op had an embolism and died.

Not the doctors fault he was not an idiot he made a honest mistake. It has not destroyed my faith in doctors but made me more aware that they can be mistaken and that it is OK to question their decisions.

She went for a routine chest X-Ray the radiologist noticed her limping and decided to X-Ray her hip off his own bat as it where.

 

[Sue192]

[

I agree @Sue192, and would add that when actual engineers look at their medical conditions using an engineering approach, they realize that there was much mainstream medicine does not know. @FatEmperor's story is a case in point. His journey started when several of his own blood markers were elevated. He went to three different doctors seeking the root cause of his elevated markers. Not one could provide an explanation that made sense to him as an engineer. He then did his own research (his expertise is in root cause analysis/complex problem-solving) and he found the root cause within a few weeks. @DaveKeto is another example. He is taking on the conventional wisdom in lipidology.

Other points to consider: there is a saying in medicine along the lines of 'half of what you learn in medical school is obsolete before you graduate; the problem is, you don't know which half'. Another point, most physicians will agree that their undergraduate medical education in nutrition is very short indeed, I've heard some say a mere four hours. And lastly, the guild mentality, where professional groups (and this is not solely directed at medicine, I would include all licensed professions here) seek to restrict dissemination of knowledge to protect their status - is no longer fit for purpose (and no longer viable in the internet age, TBH). We need the knowledge that the brilliant minds in other disciplines bring to the health and wellness discussions, as well as the knowledge of lived patient experiences. We all benefit from this.

Thank goodness for the internet, this forum and others like it. I have learned so much.

Thank you for mentioning those two members, @Biggles2. You have pointed me in a direction that makes sense to me. I've been around engineers all my life (sounds a bit dodgy, that....): father was one, I was brought up among them, was married to one and have many friends who are engineers. They are a breed apart! I sometimes get totally confused and lost by the amazing amount of research/studies/opinions/suggestions etc out there and I find 'an engineer's approach' works for me when the confusion descends into a fog of 'can't understand all this, what do I do now - give up?'. I echo your last sentence.

 

[Guzzler]

Thank you for mentioning those two members, @Biggles2. You have pointed me in a direction that makes sense to me. I've been around engineers all my life (sounds a bit dodgy, that....): father was one, I was brought up among them, was married to one and have many friends who are engineers. They are a breed apart! I sometimes get totally confused and lost by the amazing amount of research/studies/opinions/suggestions etc out there and I find 'an engineer's approach' works for me when the confusion descends into a fog of 'can't understand all this, what do I do now - give up?'. I echo your last sentence.

Even for non engineers among us FatEmperor (Ivor Cummins) just makes it easy to understand. Except for the Krebs Cycle. That thing makes my teeth bleed!

 

[JohnEGreen]

Yes have to admit Krebs Cycle was I found a little bit mind boggling when we first did it the first year of my degree course.

Just a word of caution though the body is not a mechanism and engineering principles can lead you astray when conceptualizing how the body works .

 

[Boo1979]

Yes machines work in a mechanistic, uniform way - human bodies dont

 

[TheBigNewt]

Yes machines work in a mechanistic, uniform way - human bodies dont

That's why I like cardiology. You got muscle (meds), plumbing (stents, bypass), wiring (pacers, ablation, meds), valves (surgery). You can measure almost everything. Diabetes.................sheesh!

 

[Brunneria]

Yes have to admit Krebs Cycle was I found a little bit mind boggling when we first did it the first year of my degree course.

Just a word of caution though the body is not a mechanism and engineering principles can lead you astray when conceptualizing how the body works .

Ivor Cummins doesn’t conceptualise how the human body works using engineering principles.
He applies critical thinking and engineering problem solving techniques to medical issues - which cuts through the cognitive dissonance that has dogged orthodox medical thinking for decades.

Edited to add:
Cognitive dissonnances such as
If certain groups of people with low cholesterol are more at risk of death than those with high cholesterol, why do doctors try to increase risk by lowering cholesterol in those groups?
And
If high insulin levels cause insulin resistance, why do doctors prescribe insulin to insulin resistant type 2s?
And
High insulin levels are a common feature in metabolic syndrome and heart disease, stroke and nearly every disease of modern society. Yet there is no test for insulin resistance readily available on the NHS.
And
If the CACI calcium scan is the best known way to predict heart attack risk, then it is illogical for the NHS use the Qrisk assessment, especially when it is known to be so inaccurate at predicting risks.

 

[derry60]

As some of may know I spend some time on the ketogenic forums as well as here.
I read this today and it struck a huge note of recognition with me that I thought some of you might like to read it too.

https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/m...ctor-and-im-not-offering-medical-advice/32723

I will always suggest to people to see a doctor if I feel that I cannot help. I do not know if there is something else or not is going on with a person who writes on a forum. I am not a doctor and if somebody is really worried the doctor is a right course of action. Yes, doctors do not alway's get it right, they are human as are the rest of us. I feel that some of the comments in the link is doctor bashing sorry. While advice on here is very good advice, sometimes if a person goes to the doctors and has blood tests it maybe that something else is going on, something that people on here could never spot.

 

[derry60]

I would have thought/hoped so to. However when did you last see a GP who had read your notes before the consultation?
I don't think Tom is saying we should be giving medical advice but that all of us should educate ourselves as to personal health matters so we are informed and can use the Doc as an advice giver rather than blindly do what they say.

I must admit my doctor had read my notes when I went to see him. The first one didn't but the last one I saw did. I have 6 to choose from,so for one not so clued up doc, there are some who are. Good and bad really.

 

[derry60]

I've been in and out of hospitals all my life because of cystic fibrosis.... mistakes get made. Usually when a doctor doesn't read your notes and walks in "blind" and treats you. I've been prescribed antibiotics that my records clearly show not to give. 4 years ago I was prescribed an antibiotic in an emergency room for pneumonia by a doctor who didn't look at my notes and had no clue I'd had a double lung transplant. Once I had asked if he had checked with my transplant doctors if this drug was ok, he immediately went and read my notes. Antibiotics have different effects on transplant meds and their effectiveness. Drug interactions can be dangerous, and when a doctor doesn't bother looking at your notes there is plenty of room for bad things to happen that shouldn't.

Having said that, 99% of the doctors I have seen are good at their jobs. It's not an easy job. So for medical advice, that's where I go. And I have refused to take some drugs prescribed, if the side effects are just too risky and out weigh the benefits. Doctors sometimes don't even know them, and or never mention side effects.

For diet and exercise advice, I've spent years researching it and experimenting with it. And asking questions. As that post states, taking control of your health relies a lot on yourself. You usually know when something isn't right, or when you are onto to something.

Well said

 

[derry60]

Back on topic then
We shouldn't call all doctors idiots, simply because they are doing their best to keep us alive?
Even if not by googling our treatment

Or is that bad?

Exactly. Doctors have many illnesses to contend with, and many patients to see. They have a wide variety of patients to see. We cannot compare to somebody who has one field (Diabetes)... How many GP's do we know who has time to write a book? GP's today are under pressure. Overcrowded surgeries etc. I doubt very much that private doctor who is an expert on Diabetes has the same pressure.

 

[lindisfel]

Engineers try to fix problems doctors often apply sticking plaster repairs with a gaffer tape! Re anti coagulants for Afib D.

That's why I like cardiology. You got muscle (meds), plumbing (stents, bypass), wiring (pacers, ablation, meds), valves (surgery). You can measure almost everything. Diabetes.................sheesh!

 

[JohnEGreen]

Ivor Cummins doesn’t conceptualise how the human body works using engineering principles.
He applies critical thinking and engineering problem solving techniques to medical issues - which cuts through the cognitive dissonance that has dogged orthodox medical thinking for decades.

Edited to add:
Cognitive dissonnances such as
If certain groups of people with low cholesterol are more at risk of death than those with high cholesterol, why do doctors try to increase risk by lowering cholesterol in those groups?
And
If high insulin levels cause insulin resistance, why do doctors prescribe insulin to insulin resistant type 2s?
And
High insulin levels are a common feature in metabolic syndrome and heart disease, stroke and nearly every disease of modern society. Yet there is no test for insulin resistance readily available on the NHS.
And
If the CACI calcium scan is the best known way to predict heart attack risk, then it is illogical for the NHS use the Qrisk assessment, especially when it is known to be so inaccurate at predicting risks.

I have qualifications in engineering and medicine so I do understand where he is coming from I was merely pointing out that you cannot consider the human body as a mechanism and then apply mechanistic solutions to health problems even though you can use engineering to facilitate the solution of medical problems.

 

[ickihun]

My last GP (sadly he has left now) used to like it when I googled and went to him with a few possibilities. He said it cut down diagnosis time. We got on really well and he encouraged me to do what was right for me, rather than rigidly sticking to NHS advice.

Mine too. Both of them.
Our educated guess can be better than some of their other advisors... The odd practice nurse can be ignorant. Especially old school ones. Sadly for we patients.

Still haven't done my hba1c due to feeling too ill. Hoping next week now. My averages are 8s. It was 6s.
My head is spinings with kids appointments and mine.
I need to breath and rethink.
Easier said than done thou.

My nhs drs are superb. They are interested and want to help. And have 99.9% accuracy. Not bad for a human eh?

Ive I paid private in the past for consultants. They are very keen.

 

[TheBigNewt]

Engineers try to fix problems doctors often apply sticking plaster repairs with a gaffer tape! Re anti coagulants for Afib D.

Anticoags for a. fib are to reduce the risk of embolic stroke from a left atrial appendage thrombus coming loose. That risk varies quite a bit in persons with chronic a.fib, so not everyone will get anticoagulated. If one should suffer a true embolic stroke from a.fib it will frequently make them paralyzed on one side, maybe unable to speak. Wheelchair City. So it's not exactly a harmless situation.