Does a Vaccine provide better immunity than having Covid-19?

[Mr_Pot]

This was discussed on another thread but was apparently derailing it, so I have posted here instead.

Antibody levels induced by mRNA COVID-19 vaccines are much higher than those induced by natural infection and confer cross-reactivity that could be effective against new variants, a new study from the University of California, Irvine, found.

https://www.contagionlive.com/view/...accines-is-more-robust-than-natural-infection

 

[lucylocket61]

I think its too early to make a definitive analysis. I also think that new strains will skew results too. I will wit and see and err on the side of caution when it comes to this coronavirus.

From personal observation, the natural immunity idea seems to have such different effects on different people that I will continue with vaccination while this unfolds. Better safe than sorry.

 

[NicoleC1971]

I'd agree that we can't know yet. What would that experiment look like?
Cohort of unvaccinated but exposed to covid vs Cohort of vaccinated.
Test for antibodies and t cells at regular intervals - note that immunity to sars cov 1 was found 20 years after infection so there's hope for human immunity. Be aware that a 'case' represents anything from full blown disease to an exposure that was rebuffed by the immune system so the pcr isn't a reliable diagnostic.
There is an ethical difficulty in that there are cohorts of people who we believe to be better off vaccinated so the cohort not getting vaccinated may be skewed toward the young and healthy. You'd probably have to recruit at an anti vax rally!

As for variants/scariiants the most useful analogy I have heard from an eminently well qualified person is that a variant has a 0.3% difference to the original (like you versus you with a baseball cap or sunglasses on) i.e. still recognisable to our immune systems).

 

[Mr_Pot]

I don't think many people would advocate purposely catching the virus rather than having the vaccine. Surely the question is: having already had the virus, is it still beneficial to get vaccinated? My reading of the above article suggests that it is.

 

[lucylocket61]

I don't think many people would advocate purposely catching the virus rather than having the vaccine. Surely the question is: having already had the virus, is it still beneficial to get vaccinated? My reading of the above article suggests that it is.

that is how I read it too.

 

[bulkbiker]

I don't think many people would advocate purposely catching the virus rather than having the vaccine. Surely the question is: having already had the virus, is it still beneficial to get vaccinated? My reading of the above article suggests that it is.

Like everything else it will be a risk/reward consideration that should be looked at on a personal basis.

If you are one of the dead post vaccination then your risk/reward wasn't all that great.

If you have survived one infection with COVID then I can't see the point of running the risk of getting the vax.

And let's be honest we still have zero idea of any long term problems the jab might bring with it.

From something @lucylocket61 linked to earlier from the CDC in the US.

https://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download#page=2

Informed consent should still be sought and given yet how many people have been told they are participating in the largest medical trial in human history I wonder?

 

[Brunneria]

This was discussed on another thread but was apparently derailing it, so I have posted here instead.

Antibody levels induced by mRNA COVID-19 vaccines are much higher than those induced by natural infection and confer cross-reactivity that could be effective against new variants, a new study from the University of California, Irvine, found.

https://www.contagionlive.com/view/...accines-is-more-robust-than-natural-infection

So far, we don’t know how long immunity may last for either the vaccine or the original covid, and that is without factoring in the new (and future) variants.

Nor can we possibly compare various the different immunities from different vaccines which appear to have different levels of efficacy at 3 weeks, right up to 3 months and more, at one and then two doses, and so on.

The variations are nearly endless.

 

[Mr_Pot]

Like everything else it will be a risk/reward consideration that should be looked at on a personal basis.

If you are one of the dead post vaccination then your risk/reward wasn't all that great.

If you have survived one infection with COVID then I can't see the point of running the risk of getting the vax.

And let's be honest we still have zero idea of any long term problems the jab might bring with it.

From something @lucylocket61 linked to earlier from the CDC in the US.

View attachment 49260

https://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download#page=2

Informed consent should still be sought and given yet how many people have been told they are participating in the largest medical trial in human history I wonder?

In order to get FDA approval manufacturers need 6 months of data, that's why the vaccines currently have emergency use authorization . Pfizer will apply for full FDA approval by the end of this month.

 

[HSSS]

And whilst there are many unknowns with the vaccines there are still many unknowns with long term implications of covid itself (beyond the obvious outcome of death). The entire thing is an experiment on humanity by nature whilst we try furiously to understand it all.

 

[EllieM]

And here is a refreshing take on the vaccine situation from a Canadian doctor.
Which COVID-19 vaccine is better? (spoiler, they’re all good) - YouTube

I guess the question is whether anyone has caught covid a second time and been seriously ill.... Since the above video suggests that the vaccines give 100% protection against severe illness.

This BBC article says yes,
Covid reinfection: Man gets Covid twice and second hit 'more severe' - BBC News

Personally, I can't wait to get a vaccine. Hopefully in the next month or so...

 

[NicoleC1971]

And whilst there are many unknowns with the vaccines there are still many unknowns with long term implications of covid itself (beyond the obvious outcome of death). The entire thing is an experiment on humanity by nature whilst we try furiously to understand it all.

Its a virus and a corona virus so we know its family, but is being hyper focussed upon as if it had landed here from outer space. Whatever it is its got great PR and has displaced all other supervillains in our imaginations. Remember when the big C was cancer?

 

[HSSS]

Indeed it is a known family of virus. Others have either been less infectious or less serious though. I think the sheer number of dead and overloaded health systems are what has caused the hyper focus. Also the several hundred thousand suffering beyond the initial infection in the U.K. alone, some in life limiting ways a year on, the young people with only mild covid but with heart damage waiting to see if it will heal, the increase in type 1 diagnoses would all probably say it’s somewhat different to prior experiences and not just PR.

I don’t think anyone is less aware of cancer or heart attacks or strokes as a result of covid. (Although fear of covid has stopped people seeking diagnosis and treatment I accept)

 

[bulkbiker]

In order to get FDA approval manufacturers need 6 months of data, that's why the vaccines currently have emergency use authorization . Pfizer will apply for full FDA approval by the end of this month.

As the Pfizer phase 3 trial doesn't finish until 2023 I think that approval may take longer than you think.

 

[Riva_Roxaban]

I prefer to get the covid vax over catching the virus for immunity, I think once the initial two doses are done it will be a annual top up covid vax much like the fluvax with the different strains that appear each year.

I am trying to get my 2021 fluvax in before I get my second AZ vaccination in June.

 

[bulkbiker]

An adjacent study.. with interesting results.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.04.442699v1

 

[Mr_Pot]

As the Pfizer phase 3 trial doesn't finish until 2023 I think that approval may take longer than you think.

The Pfizer phase 3 trial was completed November 18th 2020. They are continuing to monitor the participants but that is not part of the trial.

 

[bulkbiker]

The Pfizer phase 3 trial was completed November 18th 2020. They are continuing to monitor the participants but that is not part of the trial.

Ongoing? Dated April 2021.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/01/health/pfizer-covid-vaccine-efficacy-six-months-bn/index.html

 

[Mr_Pot]

Ongoing? Dated April 2021.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/01/health/pfizer-covid-vaccine-efficacy-six-months-bn/index.html
View attachment 49271

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-r...ntech-conclude-phase-3-study-covid-19-vaccine

 

[lucylocket61]

An adjacent study.. with interesting results.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.04.442699v1

Look at the disclaimer in a bright yellow box at the top of the page. Not peer reviewed, not checked.

 

[Brunneria]

It is not uncommon for drug companies to run several phase III trials, sometimes consecutive, sometimes parallel.

with covid, the large numbers of people affected and willing to take part, across multiple countries and nationalities has meant that the phase IIIs have been of unprecedented size. The current state of research, electronic record keeping, and funding have meant that the phase IIIs are being better monitored than ever before.