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Eat to your meter and Controlled Carb Regimes


No. What you are saying (and what you have said above) is that you have practical experience of doling out the wrong advice. Let me say it again: "a 50% carbohydrate diet is not suitable for T2 diabetics (on met+diet)".

You would have to eat less than 1500 kcal a day, and have Grazer's constitution, for a 50% carbohydrate diet to be even close to realistic (a 50% carb diet, with 180g of carb = 1440kcal a day).

Your experience seems to be directly opposite to almost every successful T2 on this forum. All of us have achieved good control by managing our carbohydrate intake (whether by GI, GL, portion control, LC, VLC or whatever).

Most of us have had the same NHS line thrust down our throat and rejected it.
 
jopar said:
You give one message I'm entitled to give another point of view or don't you like others debating the merits of what you've said or implied?
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Putting words in my mouth again Jopar. I have never said you were not allowed an opinion. What I object to is the kind of statement you just made that implies I do. So let me make it clear. You can have any opinion that you want. If you imply that I do not let you or others have an opinion again I will take that as a personal attack on me and object in the strongest possible way to both the moderators and the admins about doing so.

Likewise if you imply I only advocate one kind of diet, that I haven't said "I only want it recommended as an option", that I do not believe "everyone is different" or that I am some kind of fanatic or dictator or similar snide innuendoes then again I will take that as a personal attack on me and object in the strongest possible way to both the moderators and the admins about you doing so.


So you reckon the worlds leading health service hasn't done the studies required PRIOR to recommending the diet? I don't think so.

jopar said:
... regimes and available treatments has changed so the prospect for a diabetic being diagnosed today is a lot different than it was 20 years ago.
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Aren't you actually agreeing with me there? The new diet IS a lot different to the treatment 20 years ago that's the whole point!


Sorry doesn't work for me and other T2's consistently report the same thing. Are you accusing us all of being liars Jopar? In my case it actually gave me T2. I have been disciplined enough in the last 4 months to do the low carb Swedish diet which has reduced my blood sugars so that now I average in the 4's most days. Check my meter if you want to or come back in a couple of weeks when I report my new HBA1c.

The year before that I was also disciplined enough to do the NHS recommended diet after I was diagnosed pre diabetic. The result I went from pre diabetic levels to an HBA1c of 11.3% in 9 months. If you call that working then it worked. Sorry I call that trying to kill me.

jopar said:
I do need to point out as well, your calorie needs also needs to be considered, as these needs actually differ for different people, it's often linked to diets and assumptions made...
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I know exactly how many calories I consume each day as I count calories as well as carbs.


Isn't that EXACTLY what I and others do when we post new member information. I think we give them and I quote you..

"encouragement to cut back on their starchy carbs, and encourage to bulk out if needs with more no carby friendly foods, such as vegetables and meat sources"

My comment to those who treat diabetics in this country Jopar. TRY HARDER. With over 70% of diabetics having an HBA1c of over 7.5% they don't seem to do very well. In my business those kind of failure rates would get you fired and fired very quickly.

You say you use to work in the care field Jopar. Why does that give you any more legitimacy than me or any other T2 who have found a simple and effective means of controlling our condition. Try taking a leaf out of what organisations like the Cochrane Collaboration who specialise is evidence based health research. One of their primary rules is "listen to what the patient is telling you".

I can hear you Jopar but I don't hear you listening to the patient.
 
A 50% carb diet would KILL very many T2 diabetics - fact. Jopar, your "experience" is working with T2's not living as one. I will also point out that if you are having small amounts of carbs and hence small amounts of insulin then you yourself have proven that less carbs works!! As a T1 I really am not getting your aversion to low carb. IT DOES WORK!! I and many others on this forum are living proof. Feet attached, all body parts where they should be, and working toward good weight, and good BG, if not already achieved! This is gained by low carbs. Ask around the forum, ask the T2's how they keep their BG stable. You are rehashing harmful information peddled by the NHS that is costing many T2's a hell of a lot more than money, they pay for this advice from the NHS and people like you with their lives - Simples!
 
Hey guys!

Don't want to argue with any of you, but I'm getting a bit narked with you keep going on about how Type 1s and LADAs can eat anything we like and jab for it. Certainly for LADA it simply isn't true. You either keep your Carbs low or you spike horrendously. The grass isn't greener over here I'm afraid!

Smidge
 

I think we accept diabetes no matter the type is not easy. My points were (and I stand by them) them low carbs work, high carbs kill. I know little about T1 apart from you can compensate, if you have high BG. I have no doubt that keeping an eye on carbs no matter your type is sensible. I also get 'narked' when I see people tell me LC or ULC doesn't work. I live it, I think my opinion on the matter counts for something. Goodnight Smidge.
 

We don't think that Smidge. We are just trying to keep the conversation focued on dietry intervention for non-insulin dependent T2s. No T2 diabetic with their head screwed on would swap places with a T1 or a T1.5.

I'm a big fan of Bernstein, so I know exactly what the benefits of carb control are for insulin users.

However, as a boring T2 diabetic I have no practical experience of insulin or hypos or DKA, I wouldn't dream of offering advice to anyone on any of those topics. Unfortunately some T1 diabetics don't accord us the same respect, and belittle our practical experiences of controlling our diabetes, because the NHS diet works for them (and more often than not because they work(ed) for the NHS).

(I think) all of the T2s on this forum agree that you need to somehow manage your carbs to control you diabetes (without insulin or insulin provoking drugs). I wouldn't mind if we were doing a bad job of it, but most of us are in the 5% club (and I'm hoping to join the 4% club) so it's very frustrating to hear that some T1 diabetics disagree with our basic methodology.
It's a bit like Ryan Giggs giving Michael Schumacher advice on how to drive an F1 car. :thumbdown:
 
borofergie

Where did I give a amount of carbs?

I explained the need to work out the actual amount of carbs the individual needs... Not specified that everybody should be eating 200-250g's... This is your assumption....

xyzzy

So you reckon the worlds leading health service hasn't done the studies required PRIOR to recommending the diet? I don't think so.
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No I haven't said this, but it seems that I have to give more detail...

As we all know any studies/research is based on a group of people the ACCORD for example is one of the largest study of diabetics followed 10,521 patients which is a very small percentage of actual diabetics... And in generally other studies concerning diets are generally a lot smaller than this... But as we know with any research/trial/study apart from it does take time to collect the necessary data for a conclusion, another problem is at a smaller group size the trial/study etc might show promising results at this stage, when taken out to the general populous (populous I referring to the diabetic populous) where there's many more variables then it starts to paint a different picture... And the results/conclusion can end up a lot different than first thought

So it's reasonable to suggest that even though the Swedish would have looked at various different studies, there is going to be a period of time to see how it rolls out into the general diabetic populous...


Yes it seems I am... Hence why it's going to take time for the Swedish to truly determine whether their currant dietary advice has a better outcome. Strangely 23 years ago when I was first diagnosed I was prescribed 130g of carbs a day, my husband who's also a T1 diabetic was prescribed 180g's of carbs per day when he was diagnosed in 1979!


I'm not calling anybody a lair..

As their are diabetics here an in many different forums, who the dietary advice given works for them... Dr Bernstein and several others who are on this forum, would say that it's impossible to achieve the excellent control I have because I don't follow Bernstein's 30g's of carbs a day... But I do

[quotejopar wrote:
I do need to point out as well, your calorie needs also needs to be considered, as these needs actually differ for different people, it's often linked to diets and assumptions made...


I know exactly how many calories I consume each day as I count calories as well as carbs.
][/quote]

I couldn't tell you mine, as I've never counted calories, just make the assumption that I've never had a weight problem so what I eat must be right.. Always counted carbs though but only has I eat them, and not as a day's limited with the exception of my first regime when carbs and insulin dose was prescribed :shock:


It gives me greater insight not only what problems people are faced with, but how 'what is said and they way something is said' can be interpreted in many ways by the individual

And as I said I have lived the life of a T2 diabetic...

Concerning listening to the patient...

Listening means taking on board a patient wishes and devising a treatment plan that includes the input and wishes of the patient...

Something I would say at times some HCP's aren't very good at doing...
 
jopar said:
Where did I give a amount of carbs?
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You criticised xyzzy for saying that a 50% carb diet was unsuitable for T2 diabetics, which is a defacto justification is it not:

jopar said:
2) Again you don't know if the 50% carbohydrate ratio, will hurt that individual at all, again the individual requires assessment to what their individual needs are by a qualified persons, who needs to be privy to the individuals medical records.
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jopar said:
So it's reasonable to suggest that even though the Swedish would have looked at various different studies, there is going to be a period of time to see how it rolls out into the general diabetic populous...
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Well unfortunately we don't have the luxury of waiting until someone actually gets around to doing the long term research needed to prove the efficacy of low-carbing for T2 diabetics.


Well done. Going and tell the people on one of the insulin users forums. Do you mind if we go back the interesting discussion we were all were having about T2 diabetes?

jopar said:
And as I said I have lived the life of a T2 diabetic...
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:shock: No you haven't...
 
Jopar

Given that any kind of new treatment must have gone through the normal review processes and such like I still feel that denying the "new" now its been approved is rather like saying the day after the health system stated publically "smoking was bad" that it was still ok to smoke because the policy was new.

At some point you just have to accept that there is a new option that has been proven by the appropriate means (probably the same kind of means) as currently proven regimes. If we didn't do that nothing would ever change. We would still be rubbing sticks together to start fires. Progress happens accept it.

Yes many long term T1's are saying the "Swedish" or "American" low carb diets are similar to what they were prescribed in the 1970's and earlier. Some have said the swap in the 1980's to high carb low fat was bad, some use far stronger language.

To me the fundamental issue of that swap to high carb low fat was that it also got recommended to ALL diabetics as well. Now for insulin using diabetics such as yourself a good healthy GI driven diet is fine and I've said that countless times. Imposing that diet on us poor T2's is not fine and never will be. I take all your points about eating too much but as Borofergie points out even if you ate at say at a 2000 calories / day level it translates to far to many carbs / day for the vast majority of T2's to cope with and keep BG's in safety.

You say you have tight control. That's excellent and you should be proud. I know from my son how hard it is for a T1 to get and maintain that control year in year out.

The key point is, very simplistically, to get your control you can adjust TWO variables, the count of carbs in what you eat and then amount of insulin to cover the amount of carbs you just ate. You get that balance right and you get your excellent control. Like I say simplistic and I know its more than that but just take my simple example and run with it for the moment.

Now in me its different. I can only control with ONE free variable as I, again simplistically, only produce a fixed amount of insulin which can only "cover" a certain number of grams of carbs.

That's why low carbs take priority in T2's. They have to or we T2's can have no chance of obtaining the control you get as a T1. Why deny us that ability by continually not excepting that simple truth? Worse you then try and deny us being able to spread that message to other T2's.

I really DO NOT want to turn this into some T1 / T2 showdown it serves no one any good however when you deny me that ability to control and deny me the ability to state that control message you talk of so proudly for yourself it comes across as at best as patronising and at worst sinister to be frank.

I do accept you are not doing that Jopar but you should be aware that is how you come across to me and many other low carbing T2's who simply want the same as you do.
 
oh dear.... just my perspective after reading all your posts here... I hope everyone realises that arguing causes stress... that is no good for your BGL levels either and will probably just undo all your hard work about what you put in your mouth. :lol: The message simply is do what works for you... end of story. Sharing what works for you should be a healthy experience.
 


:thumbup:
 
mep73 said:
I hope everyone realises that arguing causes stress... that is no good for your BGL levels either
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Certainly does but arguments get personal, what I hope we are doing here is debating and discussing stuff which is different and very healthy.

mep73 said:
The message simply is do what works for you... end of story
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Yes that's what I say too but some would rather I and others like me kept quiet about the way that works for us and countless others which is why we have these debates and discussions.

mep73 said:
Sharing what works for you should be a healthy experience.
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Yes that's what I and others similar to me are trying to do.

:wave:
 
As a newcomer and quite recently diagnosed I have found the advice and experience offered by zyzzy and others to be extremely useful and informative. I was diagnosed overseas and told nothing about diet. Honestly, I didn't know that fruits and vegetables were carbohydrates or that starch could be problematic. I did know I had to lose weight so my first inclination was to eat lots of fruit, grains, vegetables etc. It was only through sites such as this one that I have got a balanced view and what my dietary options are going forward. This discussion is very useful. When I returned home my local GP said nothing about diet other than to lose 10kg. I do eat to the meter and am on a steep learning curve in respect of what foods affect my BS
cheers
 

Thank you Paul much appreciate the support :wave:
 
I think you and all of us,,t-should be grateful to Jopar Xyzzy. A dissenting voice, a different point of view, someone voicing doubts which others might have but are afraid to express.

Following the argument {and it WAS an argument} clarifies a great deal for the particpants as well as the readers.
people will read it all and make up their own minds , as ever , but maybe, in some cases, wih more informaion and knowledge.

Certainly its always easier to expound a particular theory or policy , but the challenge is to bring others with you. It can be very frustrating when , as in yuour case, you have found THE WAY and can't understand why others can't accept it without quesion. I know that this is because it is a helth issue and there is a simple way to help many suferers and this is vitally important. and matters a grea deal to you. No one could question your sincerity.

I think reducing or conrolling carbs works and makes sense. But then so does GI for many and is more acceptable and sustainable and generally makes life easier. Just conrolling porions may also be sufficient for others.

I definitely agree hat everyone should have access to information about reducing or controlling carbs but I also hink it is very true that informaion is offered at the right ime.
Unless the NHS openly changes its guidelines to those reating diabetes there is always going to be a problem with the advice issued on diagnosis. That means that there will always be those who find this forum having been bombarded with all sorts of confusing and conflicting information.

It would do no harm that I can see to insert a few words or a link to further information but anyone reading around the forum , who has absorbed the information to newbies will soon work it out for themselves.

Being a cautious person by nature I can understand how some are afraid that giving advice o the newly diagnosed can cause harm. unless it is well balanced . Both reduced carb and GI methods require some work to study and understand.
While some newbies will go at these things like a bull at a gate determind not to be beaten by the disease others may well be put off by too much information and take he easy way out.

Although contributors to this forum would appear to be from very disparate backgrounds and hold very fdifferent views according to their individual life experiences I think they have a great deal in common They all want to know more about and take control of their own disease.

Overall I agree with you in many ways xyzzy and yes I do think NHS advice to the newly diagnosed probably does more harm than any advice on here about reducing carbs woul.
We have to remeber that many posters have had an entirely difference experience with the NHS . are very happy with that and
feel very unconfortable with much of what they read on here.

Their opinions can't just be dismissed as irrelevant . Sometimes they may even have a point My experience has been prey dreadful I am still regreing my diagnosis at the particular ime I was diagnosed. It might actually have been better for me to remain undiagnosed for a few years longer,

I can recognise ,however hat this is very unusual .and that many will not understand it as their diagnosis changed their lives for the better. I know you recognise that we are all differen but that applies o the mind as well as the body.

If you have a scinific or mathematicl brain your approach will always be different to that of others. Diabetes is not always an equation. Or maybe ther is always something left out of the equation.

I think it was the 70s and 80s when we would often hear tthe phrase about winning "heartds and minds". Hearts can be just as important.
I wish you and this forum well. I think you mean well and i am sure you have alredy helped many .

IYou are obviously a very enhusiastic ,person passionate about your beliefs.

I don't suppose you care a t all about my opinion but I will say here that it does apppear you dislike being challenged about your beliefds - thats OK - understandable BUT constantly threatening Jopar or others with the Moderators or Admin does not do you - or your cause, any favours.
As i said at the beginning this hread and , forcing everyone to think and clarifying certain issues has been very useful.

Thank you for that and best wishes to all and thanks also to Jopar .
 
Unbeliever, your post sounds as if you are leaving us. I sincerely hope not - your contributions are wonderful and I for one would miss you very much.

Viv 8)
 
viviennem said:
Xyzzy, I don't disagree with anything that you say, but for some people at least I think your post is best as a 'second stage'. In my opinion, for some it's too much, too soon, as a welcoming post.

...
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Viv, thanks for the constructive criticism. I said in another thread the reason I felt I had to make things complex is others objected to my "Swedish" message in its entirety because it was not the NHS diet line and also was not GI driven advice. The complexity got added to justify against their opposition.

Based on your advice I have just made a new member post that reads as follows


That is far more like what I would like to say. It imparts the modern concept of a low(er) carb diet, advocates an easy to use get up and running portion control method until the new member finds their feet, says find out about carb counting as thats better and only mentions one number in the entire text "8ish" for safe blood levels. It advocates the need for testing. It has a link to this thread for the new member to get underlying techie stuff if they so desire. On both the diet and levels sections it warns the member that they maybe told something different by the NHS and why.

I will probably tweak it a bit but you get the idea.

What do you think?
 
Unbeliever said:
I think you and all of us,,t-should be grateful to Jopar Xyzzy. A dissenting voice, a different point of view, someone voicing doubts which others might have but are afraid to express.
...
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Unbeliever. I am not going to argue with you. You are right in many ways.

I do find it frustrating when all I am trying to do is get an extra dietary method accepted as an option to be given as a valid approach by the NHS as it works and has been proven safe but sometimes I feel whenever I state that simple message it isn't the message that is criticised but myself for delivering it.

If someone wants to rip the message to shreds that's fine or pay no attention to the message that's fine too but the constant painting of me (and others) who try and deliver that simple and moderate T2 low carb message as dangerous fanatics who accept no other viewpoints is not fine. I do except there are many valid ways of controlling diabetes and have said so on many occasions.

What other choice do I have but to in then end ask outright for them to stop implying I say things I don't.

I have let posters do that time and time again but in the end I'm afraid last night it just got to me. I apologise to both Jopar and yourself. I have tried my best never to respond on a personal level as if I did the very thing that you object to so strongly would happen. The threads would get locked and no more discussions would occur.

The one time I did respond personally to a poster a few weeks ago I got rightly wrapped across the knuckles by admin for doing so.

Again, I apologise to you unbeliever. I have always respected your view so if you say I am wrong then I will accept I am.
 
I dont understand why we need another new member post with additional information.

I know that when I was first diagnosed, and came here, I felt overwhelmed by my diagnosis. I had not long come from the surgery and my mind was full of the horrors of my conditions. I was convinced I was going to die in 10-15 years, having gone blind and lost my feet in the process. I see that echoed time and time again since. Newbie people have posted with titles of 'scared' and ''confused'

So although I understand and appreciate the hard work people are putting in to help newbies, I dont think i could have coped with more information than I got initially.

May I suggest an Newbie Ask A Question Section? Where newbies can post, knowing that the people they ask will understand that they are newbies and will give the Ladybird Guide type of answers? and maybe save the more scientific or detailed posts for perhaps a month later or when we feel confident enough to post in the general sections?

I also think that many of you are strong and brave and used to dealing with medical issues and standing up for yourselves and have the confidence to go against The Doctors. But some of us are new to this. We have always accepted that the Doctors are right and feel scared and uncomfortable with challenging their pronouncements. So anything that goes too far from the received medical wisdom will be a step too far initially.

Once we have more confidence, and have learned that we can tweak our foods and not die, then we can explore and accept more detailed help. But maybe it needs to be baby steps at first.

I say with with respect, no intent to challenge or be disrespectful to anyone. If I have phrase things badly, please understand that my intentions are good.
 
Thanks for your reply above above , xyzzy. I don't think that you owe me an apology .but I am glad you were "big " enough to apaologise to Jopar . Few would have done that.

I could tell by your final post to her that you had calmed down a
We are very lucky here in having so many people willing to help others in different ways. I hate to see wellmeaning sincere people being dismissive of other's views or geting personal and disrespectimg each other/ Its not merely for fear of the mods etc but also because of the reputation of the forum.
None of us want to put people off or frighten them I am sure. Just the oppposite!
Will put soapbox away now. Promise.
 
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