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Eat to your meter and Controlled Carb Regimes

Lucy
I agree that this is a really scary experience. I was in a foreign country, symptomatic, confused, dangerously high blood pressure. I was terrified but managed to realise what the likely problem was and asked specifically for the test. I had had diabetes for months, with a level of 10.3% and bs 258. My GP here in Melbourne had only ever had his nurse test my urine for ...something ...to indicate that there might be an issue. There never was anything. The eventual diagnosis was terrifying for me. Fortunately this happened in Bangkok but as I travel frequently it could just have easily been Peru or Mongolia. I dread to think what might have happened.
This was the first site I found after my diagnosis and I found it enormously helpful. I particularly wanted information, the more the better, from those who actively manage their disease.
I do take your point about information overload but I did find such valuable advice in respect of carbs. Had I based ny diet on the Australian guidelines ( " your meals need to be based on high fibre carbohydrate foods such as wholegrain breads and cereals, dried beans, lentils, starchy vegetables anf fruits"), I would still be having high readings.
cheers
 
lucylocket61 said:
I dont understand why we need another new member post with additional information.
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I don't think anyone (yet) is saying that. My only comment was along the line of changing some of the emphasis and coming out more strongly in favour of low carbing for T2's as I don't think we need to be so reticent about that message now that other health services endorse that low carb message for T2's. Isn't that a good thing? In any event to me the bigger prize is the advice given on the site as a whole, both as a means of imparting the low carb "good news" to site visitors and as a means of applying more pressure to DUK into reviewing their position which is obviously one of the primary goals of all pro low carbers.

So my honest answer is I don't see Daisy's text as sacrosanct as like anything else it should move with the times however I don't especially disagree with any of it either.

lucylocket61 said:
May I suggest an Newbie Ask A Question Section?
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Maybe but isn't that the same as the "Newly Diagnosed" section that already exists? Don't know may be different. I have no strong opinion either way and like you would be interested in hearing opinions.

lucylocket61 said:
and have learned that we can tweak our foods and not die, then we can explore and accept more detailed help. But maybe it needs to be baby steps at first.
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I agree somewhat. I think many new members when they first arrive want to find simple advice NOW. In my view they need simple advise and if they are looking to do a diet only approach to T2 then they need to be told that it isn't going to happen if you don't cut carbs. That's a major issue I have with the NHS. They DO tend to recommend a diet + met start but then don't recommend a diet that actually works to go with their advise. I think Borofergies maths and science that he posted in this thread prove that pretty conclusively.

What better than instead of talking about carbohydrates, GI, or whatever you give them a simple list of the types of foods they should avoid and the types that are safe? I will freely admit the list I give in my posts are roughly the same list as the Swedish list of foods and that's why I choose that list. If a new person adopts that simple list then I agree they may not get it right for a few days or weeks but it does start them on the right path and will be doing them less harm that either the starchy carb diet or not having an idea at all.

Like I said previously I accept the criticism that my advise WAS gradually getting overly complex but felt I had to make it complex because I constantly got attacked for trying to promote a low(ish) carb start and I felt I had to justify why I was saying that.

You will see from my new member post this morning what I would rather be saying. It has no numbers except "8ish" doesn't mention carbs or GI or any complex dietary information. If the member wants to get "techie" they can follow the link to this thread.

It may need tweaking to make it even simpler but it is a straightforward message on how to begin to do a restricted carbohydrate diet as recommended by a leading health service.
 

Glad we are friends again unbeliever it upset me to think I had upset you. Keep telling me off it does me good. :wave:
 

I see what you mean now.

I think where we are taking a different viewpoint is that I am reading the newbie post from Daisy1 as step one of a whole new way of living, and I am interpreting your post as a Diet with a capital 'D'.

So I see a Diet as a negative, restrictive introduction to my future, with all its connotations of giving up all the foods I love, surrendering control of my eating and adding to my depression. This isnt helped, of course, by the media way of presenting Diets as negative and something which carries no joy.

Whereas a New Way of Eating is a positive thing. It has connotations of discovery and interest and exploration and feeling in personal control of my body at a time I feel Diabetes has taken that control away from me.

It all boils down to the same thing. A Diabetic cannot eat any and everything in any quantity they want. But initially the more control I feel I still have, the more likely I am to take dietary advice on board

On another point. I seem to have misunderstood the function of the Newbie part of the forum. I thought it was just for initial introductions and question asking had to be in the other section, reading the info under the heading. Thanks for explaining that.
 
I like your suggestions for your new post, Xyzzy - I italicize the 'your' because that's what I understood you to say. I think there's plenty of room for the present one (reviewed regularly if necessary) and yours too! Your new one is very easy to read, and I like the link to the science stuff for those who want to learn more.

Tip - have a good look at it tomorrow to check for the odd typo - there are one or two. Do it tomorrow, though - no one can proofread their own work close up in time. I post with my proofreader's hat on :wink:

I'd just like to say that I think this thread has been very good. Not only has it been a very interesting discussion, but it's quite obvious that everyone has been thinking pretty hard about what they're saying, and making a real effort for it not to get off the point, get personal and get locked by the mods.

Now this dedicated follower of Atkins is off to have a bacon sandwich - or even two (it's a very small loaf). I'm beginning to think, from my last couple of months readings, that I may be a living example of weight loss decreasing insulin resistance. I still have to be careful most of the time, though - or my weight and my BGs will balloon in tandem! :shock: :lol:

Viv 8)
 

Yes that's exactly it. The word diet / Diet is the problem. When I remember to or when I see a new member confuse that very point I try and point out exactly that. What you've actually said is my personal rule No 1. "Eat whatever you want but get control of your levels." If that same set of foods end up give you weight loss as well it's a great but secondary bonus.

That's why I think many unintentionally misunderstand my message. My message is levels not food or carbs or GI. I simply believe whatever you eat then you should end up under 8 ish two hours later as that way you are minimizing the chances of complications on yourself and to be even stronger minimizing the risk of imposing any complications you get on your family, friends or the overworked health system. So in many ways my message is "take responsibility" for your actions and empower yourself.

What I do accept is that without being provided with a good tool set or information no one has a hope (or historically had a hope) of taking responsibility and that everyone is going to have a lapse now and then and go on a binge or whatever as we are all human but my basic message remains the same. My tool set I offer new members who want to try and sort things out is to recommend as a starting point a list of foods based on the Swedish system (note the new word system). What I can't particularly control and why I get angry is I have little control over the information aspect as others (for want of better words "the establishment") primarily currently dictate what that information message is. I would guess you and me both would agree those people are wrong and want to change that message.
 
Hey all!

Thanks for the clarification last night Defren, Borofergie, Xyzzy. I get a little peeved when people seem to reinforce the NHS message that LADAs (and Type1) can eat normally and jab to cover it. So many people on this forum are struggling to keep LADA and similar conditions under control, and the dietary/jabbing advice given by the NHS really doesn't help our cause. See the following for type of issues those with LADA are struggling with:

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes-forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=28362

I really believe a low carb diet is the only practical option for getting control of LADA, but even getting it diagnosed is a nightmare, let alone getting proper dietary advice. Anyway, I'll stop diverting the discussion away from Type 2 now :lol:

Personally, I think that the way a message is given is the most crucial factor in whether people hear it or not. For me, Dillinger's post in the low carb diet forum on the case for low-carb is an absolute classic example of best practice in influencing the reader. It is not aggressive, threatening, demanding or dictating, but is calm, concise, ordered and reasoned. I read it shortly after my diagnosis (as Type 2 at the time) and it quite literally changed my life. If anyone wants a lesson in winning hearts and minds (as Unbeliever put it) read (or re-read) Dillinger's post:

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes-forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=9427

Smidge
 
Right I've kept out of this debate as I seem to upset xzzxy, Grazer and borofergie now whenever I post but I feel its time to add my 2p worth.
jopar said:
I'm going to counter debate here...
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Agree 100% with every word Jopar especially this bit:

jopar said:
There is one important thing you are leaving out with your message...

And that's the individual :shock:


Which means you are instructing them, and not educating them!
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The tread title is "Eat to your meter and Controlled Carb Regimes" but so far all we have heard from xzzxy is controlling carbs to a set or proposed limit and nothing about eating to your meter. Now as we all know, or most of us know, we are all different so it is absolutely pointless to set a carb limit plucked out of the air when we know that some diabetics do very well on 150g plus carbs a day (Grazer) and some like Wiflib and borofergie need to go under 50g and 30g (hope Ive got these figures right guys) respectively, and how did they come to this decision? By testing and eating what their meters told them was safe.

My Hba1c is currently 5.4% and over the last 3 years it has varied from 12.9% at diagnosis to between 5.8% and 5.1% ever since. I didnt do this by sticking to eat under xxx no of carbs, I did it by testing and only eating the amount of carbs that my meter told me was OK and this amount has varied considerably over the 3 years.

It is IMO ridiculous to tell someone to eat under xxx amount of carbs when that amount could be causing complications. WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT.

The only way it would work would be to tell every diabetic to eat less than 30g of carbs a day and many myself included would never want or be able to stick to such a restrictive diet and of course it is wholly unnecessary to do so anyway, no food needs to be off the menu, just restricted to what your meter tells you is OK.

So perhaps we can now have a more balanced debate and include testing as a way of controlling both weight and blood glucose levels.
 

Thank you also Smidge. I think there are two facts that runs through the entire diabetes debate. The first is that T1, T1.5 and T2's have a different regime. I do think we all need to understand and respect that, and I am one who will hold my hand up and say that when I talk about diabetes here, I talk about T2 as that is what I have. However, when in any discussion/debate, how are the people I am posting with supposed to know that? That is my bad, and something I need to, and will correct from here on in.

Secondly, I think we all agree carbs play an huge part in ALL of our diabetes, no matter the type. In however a smaller or greater degree we restrict them, and as individuals how our own bodies react.

I fully admit, I get frustrated beyond words, when people say reduced carbs/low carbs/ultra low carbs doesn't work, as I live it every single day, so know it does. The carb debate has seen much friction on this forum, and personally I find that very sad. We each have our own idea of what works for us, and carbs by their very nature has to be apart of the equation. Xyzzy, Borofergie and Grazer have been champions to me, because as a newby they were prepared to support me, help me, advise me and also give me a kick when I needed it, both publicly and privately. Daisy also helped with her welcome introduction. I also listen hard and carefully to the words of Viv as she is so very knowledgeable with anything to do with Atkins, and her modified diet has become my new diabetes bible. Hana, who can give explanations of things, and expand on subjects in a way I understand, and is always happy to answer or aid when she can. I also love reading posts from WhitbyJet, her recipe's and general air of kindness and helpfulness are very much appreciated by me. One other person who has been an exceptional friend behind the scene's is jeannemum, not so much on here, but another site. And also the inventor of my favourite soothing soup Wiflib.

I am not turning this post into a Oscar nomination post, just trying to show there are people on this forum of all different types, backgrounds, abilities, in other words a mixed bag of people, who put together make this forum a place of warmth, kindness, information and care. I sometimes feel that message can get lost along the way.
 
I agree with Sid the main thing is to test test test I am a type 2 underweight by about half a stone I have been DX for 3 years and this forum has been a lifeline .The advice given for newly DX was just enough to take in I think I would have been frightened off by Xyzzys post for newly DX .Just my thoughts
CAROL
 
I agree that for a T2D lower carb is the only way to go. Carbs = glucose. Glucose is a problem, therefore, cut the carbs and you cut the problem. Starcy carbs are often seen as 'comfort food', and many people eat them without thinking. Giving them up can cause 'cold turkey' - I know it did for me - so I'm better off not eating them. My hubby can eat a biscuit or piece of cake and walk away - I can't. That's at least part of what caused me to be very overweight and a diabetic in the first place. Low carb has saved my life (even my doctor agrees).

MTT

PS I also feel that as a type 2 I understand what being a type 2 is like and although I grew up with a type 1 I will never know how he felt - he's now dead as he didn't control it very well as a young child.
 
Sid Bonkers said:
Right I've kept out of this debate as I seem to upset xzzxy, Grazer and borofergie now whenever I post but I feel its time to add my 2p worth.!
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Welcome back Sid

Isn't saying


Eat to your meter?

The levels thing has been my mantra since joining this site. God even Grazer has moaned at me about how anal I am about that! I have said that "eat to your meter" message countless times over and over again. You and I had a bust up a few weeks ago because I want 7.8 and you want 8.5 as safe. Look nowadays I've even compromised on that and say 8ish!

I advocate any method to achieve that eat to your meter message but simply pointi out the NHS diet message doesn't work for most T2D's on a just diet and minimum meds regime and recommend another health services recommendation as it works for more T2D's than the NHS one does. If you can prove that statement is wrong then great I'm lisenning.

If you can personally do the NHS diet great, I'm not stopping you and have never said anything different. If you want to do eat to the meter by your portion control technique again not a problem, whatever works for people is fine by me.

If you read my first post on this thread then you will see it has a big section about "Eat to your meter" and the threads title says "Eat to your meter..." I actually also comment that Hana who is undoubtedly the forums T2D eat to the meter champion is a great inspiration to me.

I totally and absolutely agree that eat to you meter is the most important thing a T2D can do. Carbs are secondary to eat to your meter, so is GI so is Sweden, so is VLC, so are the UK diet regs and so is everything else in the context of controlling T2D.

Is that clear enough?

It's all very well saying "eat to your meter" but that statement has to mean something definite. To me it means trying your best to be under 8ish two hours after eating a meal. If that's your definition as well then we seem to be in total agreement.
 

CAROL

Let me know what you think is overly complicated or frightenning in this and I'll consider changing it.

 
viviennem said:
Unbeliever, your post sounds as if you are leaving us. I sincerely hope not - your contributions are wonderful and I for one would miss you very much.

Viv 8)
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Oh Viv , thank you so much! No, I just thought that I would be better "bowing out" of thi particular discussion. But thank you for your kind words I can return the compliment with bells on.!

I am glad xyzzy took my post in the spirit in which it was written. Many good people here and I am grateful to them all in different ways.
 
I hink we have to consider that people find this forum at different stages . I think people who find it when newly diagnosed are very fortunate but I am not sure, in my particular circumstances I would have realised how and when it would have applied to me.
For the fisrst three years after diagnosis I was too busy trying different medicaions and trying ot cope with the complication caused by the medication which finally worked , worjking too quickly!

Maybe a big headlie reading T" medication not working ?- read more here!.!. might have caught my attention. I think I had been diagnosed for anbout 3-4 years when i found this forum and it took me alittle longer to find the low-carb message.

There is probably room for something to help those who are not necessarily newly diagnosed and no starting entirely from scrach. Daisy's post is invaluable , of course and probabaly just enough for the newly diagnosed to absorb but the "new to the forum peopl but not newly diagnosed may well appreciate something along the lines of xyzzy's offering.

Although low carbing - reducing carbs whatever you wish to call it was what I needed I would not have known this for myself as I was underweight when diagnosed and had always been slim. Bread in ,particular makes me spike. Perhaps reading about reducing starchy carbs in a calm , non threatening way would have helped.

i really do understand the misgivings of certain people about low carbing. It is well meant. Sometimes I am concerned for myself over the question of energy levels and and nutrition as I have certain food allergies and do not eat red meat .

My beef with the NHS is never that they don't push a particular diet but that the diet they do push is harmful.
i can't see that any reasonable person could possibly object to the advice on diagnosis including a mention of all the means by which diabetics control theitr condition so that the patient can then make further enquiries if they so wish.
There should be more information available on all of hese alernaives.
It is hardly surprising that some .maybe many, diabetics do not take the condition seriously when the advice they are given is ineffective..
I am sure that many who were diagnosed some time ago would be horrified at the treatment and advice offered to the newly diagnosed . If they were fortunate enough to have good advice and treatment they must have real difficulty trying o understand the attitude of those of us who have not been so fortunate.
They may ind it difficult o accept what goes on now but we can still learn a great deal from their experiences.

I really can't see that there is any conflict between Daisy's post and that proposed by xyzzy. There is room for both.
the more information available for those new to the forum at any stage, the better surely?

I
 
Unbeliever said:
I really can't see that there is any conflict between Daisy's post and that proposed by xyzzy. There is room for both. the more information available for those new to the forum at any stage, the better surely?
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While there was much in your post I agreed with, this jumped out at me, and all I can add to it is - I agree 100%

Good post Unbeliever.
 

I'm glad I misinterpreted you, Unbeliever. Sometimes it's best just to keep your head down and stay quiet. I can't bear rows :wink:

Viv 8)
 

I know what you mean , of course. I don't believe in futile arguments where neither side is likely to change their opinion
-and things get personal . I just have a bit of a "thing" about "RESPECT" No not GG's party!
No, I am not criticising anyone and domn't want o open old wounds. I don't think I would get personally involved in any acrimony perhaps because I am too old and cynical to get too partisan about anything. II read these discussions with gereat interest bu know my limitationns! Its just that when I start to feel very uncomfortable about the tone of a thread
I just have o say so. Maybe I was a referee in anoher existence. Or maybe I am just an interfering busybody.
No, don' bother to answer that anyone. PLEASE.
 
Fascinating and informative thread this, have been reading this for days and thought as a relative newbie, I would add my thoughts...

Although I am only 4 weeks into my new low carb eating regime, I have been T2 for about 4 years, and had never heard the phrase "eat to your meter" before joining this forum. Now, it is my MANTRA in life!! I seem to be a more casual low carber than some here, I am "minimising" my carbs rather than counting them, I couldn't tell you how many carbs I have had today, only that it would be under 3 figures. I am however, entirely driven by my meter (strips now very quickly running out!)

I think we all "cherry pick" a bit from this forum depending on where we are with our diabetes battles, lives and previous experiences and knowledge. Although we all take different things away from here, it's all essential in my view, and the many illuminating posters on here sharing their knowledge and opinions can only be a good thing as far as I'm concerned, wherever it's presented.

For example, xyzzy, without your post I wouldn't have known about the swedish/american approach until such time as the NHS powers that be got their heads round it, and that could be when? And this is very very informative and useful when you're either newly diagnosed, or just getting to grips with it.

And the 7.8 vs 8.5 debate - seeing as my DSN wrote "under 10" in my diary, I was hugely interested in this, and now find myself in the position of having to make an informed decision about which of these figures I can work with to suits my needs and lifestyle, (and my favourite breakfast!) - my choice. Information presented and debated and enabling people like myself to make their own decisions.

So, I think it's vital to keep sharing and debating for all the people like myself who are constantly reading and learning here, even if they are not posting themselves. I'm still taking it all in!
 
Thanks for your thoughts Emma

The eat to your meter mantra has been pushed by forum members for a long time. It is what as a "techie" I would call a reductionist approach. What that means is in its simplest physical stated basic form the act of controlling diabetes is to do with blood sugar levels and everything else builds from that. What you build on top of it should be a life time long term system that you are comfortable with. That maybe "Swedish / American", GI Driven, VLC, lots of meds, go on insulin or whatever. Just do whatever you want to get that control so you remain safe and as risk free from complications as you can get. You owe that to yourself, your family and society.

The message was given to me by my T1 son upon my own diagnosis and he has been practising it for several years with great success. I've pointed out previously that we current do different diet styles, I do my Swedish stuff and he's more of a GI driven man at present. We recognise both approaches are fine because they work for us and keep us safe.

Eat to your meter can have its own dangers which people should be aware of. You can get too obsessive about it and worry about each and every reading. If I get a "bad run" of readings I just stop for a day and chill out. I find worrying about a reading will easily make the next one bad as well because you are stressing about it. Don't ever let in be a killjoy on your life. Everyone needs fun and that may well be occasionally having a **** good blow out. It's the psychological principle you need to adopt so it becomes your normal background way of dealing with things rather than worrying that with each reading that you are breaking some cardinal rule.

Don't ever play a game of compare two meters! I did that and within two days was going insane. I stopped myself at one point taking the same reading for the fifth time!

Likewise a newly diagnosed person may feel they are failing or that they are harming themselves because they wake up well over 8 or end up well over 8 after eating. Here patience is the key. It took me around 6 weeks of pretty low carbing to drop back to a point where I was getting consistent readings below 8. For the first two weeks I always woke up in double digits. What you are looking for is an overall improvement. If you don't see it and your are cutting your carbs then don't kid yourself, go back to your doc and explain what you're doing and that you are seeing no improvement in levels. In these cases you may need extra help.

Finally there is of course the problem that some people can't do eat to your meter because their GP's won't prescribe a meter and strips and people simply can't afford to privately fund it. In those cases my attitude is those people should play it safe and adopt a low carb life style using the Swedish or American guides to carbohydrate intake as a rough guideline to start from rather than the UK high carb diet. Just a quick note though. If anyone can find £20 up front and then £5 every 50 days they can do a minimum eat to your meter regime by purchasing that SD Codefree meter. Strips are £5 / 50 so by doing a single daily 2 hour test after your main meal you could eek out those 50 strips to last around 7 weeks.

Off for a days worth of meetings!
 
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