Endogenous vs Exogenous Ketones

[ghost_whistler]

In this article about protein a few claims are made that seem counter productive
https://optimisingnutrition.com/2017/06/03/why-do-my-blood-sugars-rise-after-a-high-protein-meal/

If you want to lose weight you need to eat endogenous ketones - less dietary fat in other words. But consequenlty you'll have low energy (how low it doesn't say). Is this really a good thing? it sounds like starvation mode. But he says this is where the health benefits come from.

If you want high energy you need lots of ketones in the blood provided from exogenous ketones (food and supplements - ie fat). BUt then you don't lose weight.

Is this right?

 

[Resurgam]

Not for me.
Low fat never worked, I felt dreadful, looked like death and had no energy.
Along came Atkins and I could lose weight no problem - but it isn't high protein.

 

[catapillar]

If you want to lose weight you need to eat endogenous ketones - less dietary fat in other words.

You don't eat endogenous ketones.

Endogenous means having an internal cause or origin.

Ketones happen when your body burns fat for fuel. Endogenous ketones happen when your body burns your body fat for fuel (hence, weight loss) exogenous ketones happen when your body burns fat that you've eaten for fuel. If you've got weight to lose any weight loss method where you loose body fat will involve the production of endogenous ketones. If you're eating too much fat, all you are doing is giving your body an easier/preferable choice to burning your body fat to make ketones, instead it will burn the fat you are eating first.

 

[Guzzler]

Fat is fuel. Eating (natural) fat does not make you fat. When you are actively losing weight the body is using up its fat stores but will also use dietary fat for fuel. This is why lowering carb intake aids weight loss because glucose from carbs is an inefficient fuel source whereas fuel from fat will allow more efficacious fuel burning and for much longer. The body also uses ketones as fuel. Only in true starvation will ketones become so dangerously high as to cause ketoacidosis. However DKA is something that those of Type 1 Diabetes can tell you more about.

 

[ghost_whistler]

Not for me.
Low fat never worked, I felt dreadful, looked like death and had no energy.
Along came Atkins and I could lose weight no problem - but it isn't high protein.

depends what is considered low fat.

or high protein.

 

[bulkbiker]

In this article about protein a few claims are made that seem counter productive
https://optimisingnutrition.com/2017/06/03/why-do-my-blood-sugars-rise-after-a-high-protein-meal/

If you want to lose weight you need to eat endogenous ketones - less dietary fat in other words. But consequenlty you'll have low energy (how low it doesn't say). Is this really a good thing? it sounds like starvation mode. But he says this is where the health benefits come from.

If you want high energy you need lots of ketones in the blood provided from exogenous ketones (food and supplements - ie fat). BUt then you don't lose weight.

Is this right?

Did you actually read the article.. prompted by one of your posts on the ketogenic forum I notice?
Its about gluconeogenesis and endogenous and exogenous ketosis rather than ketones per se.
You seem to misunderstand (sometimes I do wonder if it is deliberate) quite a lot of what has been written there.
Also as Marty says only some people experience GNG.. I don't seem to get it for example so you are trying to extrapolate a general rule from a specific "problem" .

 

[ghost_whistler]

Did you actually read the article.. prompted by one of your posts on the ketogenic forum I notice?
Its about gluconeogenesis and endogenous and exogenous ketosis rather than ketones per se.
You seem to misunderstand (sometimes I do wonder if it is deliberate) quite a lot of what has been written there.
Also as Marty says only some people experience GNG.. I don't seem to get it for example so you are trying to extrapolate a general rule from a specific "problem" .

Yes i ask across multiple forums, if that's a problem then by all means ignore.
GNG is demand driven, you won't necessarily experience it, nor know that you are. But everyone's body does it. If they couldn't they'd die without carbs.

The article speaks about ketones, if you are burning fat you are burning endogenous ketones. If you eat fat you are getting them from exogenous sources and may be preventing your body from burning stored fat depending how much you eat, since the body will have no cause to access stored fat

 

[ghost_whistler]

Fat is fuel. Eating (natural) fat does not make you fat. When you are actively losing weight the body is using up its fat stores but will also use dietary fat for fuel. This is why lowering carb intake aids weight loss because glucose from carbs is an inefficient fuel source whereas fuel from fat will allow more efficacious fuel burning and for much longer. The body also uses ketones as fuel. Only in true starvation will ketones become so dangerously high as to cause ketoacidosis. However DKA is something that those of Type 1 Diabetes can tell you more about.

I don't think the claim is that fat makes you fat as clearly that's not true.

It's that, if you eat a lot of fat- consume exogenous ketones - then your body won't burn them endogenously. It doesn't need to since it's getting all it needs from dietary fat. Presumably then, if true, this is why fat macros exist. One isn't 'meant' to just eat pound after pound of butter/BPC/sauce etc.

 

[Guzzler]

'BPC'? I agree, one isn't meant to eat exclusively fats or exclusively anything. In normal circumstances there should be a 'good' balance between the macros. The problem lies with the western diet being so high carb and high bad fat that it imo has triggered the Diabesity problem we see all around us. Producing ketones is a natural process that the body does and we are mostly unaware of it unless we are at starvation level.

We are designed to store fat for periods of famine, we were not designed to keep on and on storing fat and using only the carbs for fuel.

 

[bulkbiker]

Yes i ask across multiple forums, if that's a problem then by all means ignore.
GNG is demand driven, you won't necessarily experience it, nor know that you are. But everyone's body does it. If they couldn't they'd die without carbs.

The article speaks about ketones, if you are burning fat you are burning endogenous ketones. If you eat fat you are getting them from exogenous sources and may be preventing your body from burning stored fat depending how much you eat, since the body will have no cause to access stored fat

I think you are missing this key point... it is not black and white.. its not if you are eating fat then you aren't burning your body fat.

The article states-

"Unless we are doing a long term fast, we will all be somewhere on the spectrum between exogenous and endogenous ketosis."

You can be burning body fat as well as dietary fat and burn both at the same time.

 

[Resurgam]

A lot of the fat you eat will just go straight on through - unlike carbs where the set up seems to be 'absorb it all it might be needed later'. It seems to be general - judging by the saying which uses the problems of cleaning blankets as illustration.
After doing low carb for a very long time I have found that eating fat seems to be the thing to do, rather than extracting and throwing away - though I just eat the fat that is there - I am not adding loads of butter to foods nor deep frying - in fact my ancient and wonderful cast iron pans are so non stick now that I do not need to add fat in order to cook in them.
I suppose I ought to make some estimate of the nutritional elements of what I eat, but when faced with a piece of roast beef or pork or lamb, or a chicken all golden brown my thoughts are anything but analytical

 

[ghost_whistler]

i tried adding some butter, i felt awful for doing so.

A little bit of olive oil, or butter just to fry with is fine, but adding the amounts that some people advocate (such as stephanie ketoperson on youtubes who advocates 200g of the stuff a day)? No chance

the idea of constantly measuring your food is not healthy imo.

But i do know that smaller amounts of protein aren't filling enough for me and if i don't feel full i feel rough, or will just get hungry an hour later

 

[bkr]

I did get excited when I initially scanned the post, something to trigger internal fat burning would be a game changer if it worked, for the liver & pancreas to be 'cleansed' of the visceral fat, now that would be fantastic.