Exogenous Ketones

[kareeta]

Morning All

I have seen a lot of online mentions of the above which seems to primarily be Hydroxybutyrate based. Apparently these drinks put you in ketosis within 24 hours without needing to do very low carbing. I am keen to try this despite the fact it is super expensive. Has anyone heard anything or tried it?

Thanks in advance

 

[ringi]

Replacing breakfast with bulletproof coffee is a much cheaper option. However, you can't remain in ketosis for long without keeping to very low carb with limited protein. But most people who don't have high insulin resistance we get into ketosis for a short time just by having 12 hours between dinner and breakfast.

 

[bulkbiker]

Morning All

I have seen a lot of online mentions of the above which seems to primarily be Hydroxybutyrate based. Apparently these drinks put you in ketosis within 24 hours without needing to do very low carbing. I am keen to try this despite the fact it is super expensive. Has anyone heard anything or tried it?

Thanks in advance

Very expensive pee... if your body isn't using ketones and you ingest a load then they will be excreted. Yes you will have high ketone readings when you take then but does that mean you are running on fat?.... unlikely.

 

[Guzzler]

I heard mention of these on a Q&A session recently (on one of the LCHF videos, I think). One boffin said that the possible effects of using them alongside a possible ingestion of too many carbs plus fats in the diet are completely unknown at this time.
I would be inclined to take the natural approach knowing the results rather than try to take a short cut route that could potentially be harmful.

eta. Just to clarify. There are three sources (or just two depending on your diet) of fuel, fats, carbs and endogenous ketones. To take nutritional ketones would be artificially adding another source without proven benefit or harm.

 

[kareeta]

Replacing breakfast with bulletproof coffee is a much cheaper option. However, you can't remain in ketosis for long without keeping to very low carb with limited protein. But most people who don't have high insulin resistance we get into ketosis for a short time just by having 12 hours between dinner and breakfast.

Thank you for replying. I have heard of bulletproof coffee, is this the one made with butter?

 

[kareeta]

Very expensive pee... if your body isn't using ketones and you ingest a load then they will be excreted. Yes you will have high ketone readings when you take then but does that mean you are running on fat?.... unlikely.

Ah right, ok. It's just I have seen photos of incredible transformations and I was drawn in by the potential weight loss

 

[kareeta]

I heard mention of these on a Q&A session recently (on one of the LCHF videos, I think). One boffin said that the possible effects of using them alongside a possible ingestion of too many carbs plus fats in the diet are completely unknown at this time.
I would be inclined to take the natural approach knowing the results rather than try to take a short cut route that could potentially be harmful.

eta. Just to clarify. There are three sources (or just two depending on your diet) of fuel, fats, carbs and endogenous ketones. To take nutritional ketones would be artificially adding another source without proven benefit or harm.

That makes sense, I know these products seem to be fairly new, I haven't seen any posts about other diabetics trying them. I have been watching with interest on peoples progress though. Does look incredible

 

[ringi]

Thank you for replying. I have heard of bulletproof coffee, is this the one made with butter?

Its just coffee with added fat and very little carbs. Therefore don't use milk. You can use double cream, butter, coconut oil etc.

The idea is that it does not increase BG, therefore you don't get a drop in BG making you want to eat and that our body seems to respond to a little fat by quickly going into "fat burning mode" so giving us a lot more energy. (Drinking a little olive oil is another option. )

 

[Oldvatr]

In natural ketosis, our body burns up excess fat stores from mainly lipid sources such as is stored in the adipose tissue. This leads to weight loss, BUT there is a switch in the body that enables the process to happen. If you have high bgl levels then this turns off fat burning mode, and the exogenous ketones will flush unused straight down the dunny. Also if you have high insulin levels this too inhibits the body using ketones as fuel. For ketones to burn you must have both low bgl and low insulin levels in the blood. An ultra low calorie diet aka Newcastle Diet, or a low carb diet such as Paleo or LCHF, OR extreme exercise such as HITTS or marathon gym sessions can be used to make the low bgl+ low insulin conditions happen. Otherwise you will be p"""ing in the wind.

 

[kareeta]

I thought it couldn’t have been as easy as having a drink in the morning and magically being in ketosis and fat burning mode! Thank you for saving me money @Oldvatr

 

[kareeta]

Its just coffee with added fat and very little carbs. Therefore don't use milk. You can use double cream, butter, coconut oil etc.

The idea is that it does not increase BG, therefore you don't get a drop in BG making you want to eat and that our body seems to respond to a little fat by quickly going into "fat burning mode" so giving us a lot more energy. (Drinking a little olive oil is another option. )

I see. Thank you I will give it a bash over the break and see if it helps. I saw my Aunt putting coconut oil in her coffee but I thought she was just having a senior moment

 

[Oldvatr]

I thought it couldn’t have been as easy as having a drink in the morning and magically being in ketosis and fat burning mode! Thank you for saving me money @Oldvatr

I looked up Hydroxybutyrate and it is normally in the form Beta-Hydroxybutyrate and is normally a result of diabetic ketoacidisis. It supplies the acidity in ketoacidosis, and in fact Hydroxybutyrate ia not actually a ketone although it is sold as one. It is otherwise known a carbolic acid since it has an -OH term in the formula. It is oxidised to a salt or an alcohol to make it palatable for humans, but then we convert it back to the beta form in our bodies before it eventully gets broken down into ketone like elements. and excreted. We can burn it but it is an emergency thing and not something I would recommend an insulin dependant diabetic to try. Because it is an emergency situation for us in high doses (above 4 mmol/l in the blood), then the body shuts off processing glucose, in an attempt to reduce acidity, and this gives the impression that the supplement helps control bgl. It can come at a cost other than mere pennies out of the pocket.

I am not tempted.

Edit to add: it seems that it is possible to hypo out when overdosing with this stuff, especially if doing heavy exercise concurrently. In my hippie days it was sold as a sex aid (Hunter S Thompson, anybody?)

 

[LittleGreyCat]

Interesting prospect as an energy drink if you are already in dietary ketosis.

That is, if you are already running mainly on ketones it might be like a glucose drink if you are mainly running on glucose.

However, having ketones in the blood is not a good thing unless you also have low blood glucose levels and minimal carbohydrate intake. You also need to be adapted to fully use the ketones as fuel.

People can lose more than half a stone very quickly by going into diabetic ketoacidosis. They can also die. Not a recommended approach to weight loss.

 

[kareeta]

I respect your input but although I am not an expert I do understand the difference between ketosis and ketoacidosis. I wouldn’t endanger myself on purpose

 

[LittleGreyCat]

Note - I looked up Hydroxybutyrate and found a site promoting InstaKetones.
https://www.consumerhealthdigest.com/weight-loss-reviews/instaketones.html
Loads of claims about weight loss and muscle building, all with a "*" alongside.

This linked to a "Results may vary, general information, no medical claims, yada yada" statement.

The instructions for use included a 4 week period of minimal carbohydrate intake - only from vegetables. Proteins, no fruit. So basically LCHF but you pay for the "magic" ingredient. As already posted, bullet proof coffee is cheaper.

I have coffee, butter and double cream for breakfast which seems to work well for me.

 

[LittleGreyCat]

I respect your input but although I am not an expert I do understand the difference between ketosis and ketoacidosis. I wouldn’t endanger myself on purpose

If you were replying to me, I wasn't suggesting that you should or might try it.

 

[kareeta]

Note - I looked up Hydroxybutyrate and found a site promoting InstaKetones.
https://www.consumerhealthdigest.com/weight-loss-reviews/instaketones.html
Loads of claims about weight loss and muscle building, all with a "*" alongside.

This linked to a "Results may vary, general information, no medical claims, yada yada" statement.

The instructions for use included a 4 week period of minimal carbohydrate intake - only from vegetables. Proteins, no fruit. So basically LCHF but you pay for the "magic" ingredient. As already posted, bullet proof coffee is cheaper.

I have coffee, butter and double cream for breakfast which seems to work well for me.

Thank you. That reinforces the fact for me. Another positive vote for the butter then ! I will try it , at least no dodgy ingredients

 

[kareeta]

If you were replying to me, I wasn't suggesting that you should or might try it.

I was replying to you but absolutely didn’t think you were suggesting I try it. I was just saying I am aware of the major difference between the two states

 

[Oldvatr]

Interesting prospect as an energy drink if you are already in dietary ketosis.

That is, if you are already running mainly on ketones it might be like a glucose drink if you are mainly running on glucose.

However, having ketones in the blood is not a good thing unless you also have low blood glucose levels and minimal carbohydrate intake. You also need to be adapted to fully use the ketones as fuel.

People can lose more than half a stone very quickly by going into diabetic ketoacidosis. They can also die. Not a recommended approach to weight loss.

Normal non-diabetic people will handle ingesting this supplement quite happily, Someone who is not able to produce matching insulin themselves can find themselves unable to clear any overdose which is potntially a danger point. It is not that the supplement causes DKA, but it is possible I understand to have too much and this can drive bgl too low.

So DKA is having high ketones AND high bgl AND low insulin in a perfect storm.

The supplement may give high ketones, but normally drives bgl low so negating the chance of DKA. The danger is Hypo not DKA.

The other problem I see is that the ketones replace the glucose as a source of energy, and so the body has no need to raid the glycogen stores in the muscles, and so this weight loss of [glycogen+water] will not occur, and also the body will not raid the lipid fat stores either until the bgl drops to hypo level, so is this an efficient way to lose weight?

As said above, using it instead of a tonic drink when exercising may be a way of using it, but not necessarily any cheaper or better, The Raspberry ketone diet has been shown to be totally ineffective, But a tonic drink is hydrating too, so IMHO wins out every time.

 

[bulkbiker]

Ah right, ok. It's just I have seen photos of incredible transformations and I was drawn in by the potential weight loss

The weight loss comes from being in ketosis when your body is burning its own fat.
I try and be there all the time..