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Fasting advice needed

Chook

Expert
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5,095
Location
Yorkshire
Type of diabetes
Type 2
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Tablets (oral)
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People who think they know everything.
I really, really need help from people with more fasting experience than me.

I am on day 3 of a fast which will end with dinner tomorrow evening. I decided that in order to trigger autophagy I would only drink water, black decaff coffee and herbal/fruit teas. That's it, nothing else. Triggering autophagy is my goal in doing this on the hope it will help my worsening arthritis.

The first day was pretty miserable but it has got slowly better and today I've not been hungry at all. Big surprise!!

My problem is this - I normally eat a keto diet and recently tried a carnivorous experiment (which I missed my veg too much to continue with) but a couple of days in to the carnivorous experiment my test for ketones changed and went as if I wasn't producing any ketones at all. When I went back to my normal keto way of eating I still didn't get any ketones (I test with Ketostix). During this fast the Ketostix still haven't been changing colour and I'm also not really getting much of a change to my BG tests - just slightly lower than normal and still with DP.

I do understand that not producing ketones might be physiological Insulin resistance and that I may need to increase carbs for a few days to get a result on the Ketostix - but does not producing ketones ATM mean I'm wasting my time with this fast?
 
Pee sticks only measure waste ketones. They’re not a very good metric of your ketone production, as waste levels in the urine will fall as you become better and better at using them.

EDIT: It seems likely that your protein experiment topped up your glucose, and dawn phenomenon would lend credence to insulin resistance being the culprit.
 
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Chook said:
During this fast the Ketostix still haven't been changing colour and I'm also not really getting much of a change to my BG tests - just slightly lower than normal and still with DP.
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As @Jim Lahey says pee sticks are a pretty useless way of measuring nutritional ketosis as once you are running on ketones you stop peeing them out. This would especially be the case when fasting so you are definitely in ketosis never fear!.
As for the higher fasting sugars it could be your body taking the opportunity to dump some extra glucose because it can as you aren't taking any in.
 
When you did your carni experiment, were you eating keto proportions of fat and protein, or just as much protein as you fancied?

If it was the latter, then it may well have taken you out of ketosis (via gluconeogenesis) and replenished glycogen stores.

The guys upthread ^^^ have covered the ketostix thing.

One question though, this is the first time I have seen someone categorically state that PIR will take you out of ketosis.
I would be interested to read where you read that?
My understanding (which is v basic) of PIR is that if you have PIR then you are in ketosis, because if you eat foods that take you out of ketosis, then the PIR wouldn't be happening.
But am happy to be corrected on that, hence my interest in your source.
 
Thanks @bulkbiker @Brunneria and @Jim Lahey

So, even though they aren't showing up on the Kefostix, I am still producing ketones but my body is using all of them. Thank goodness for that - I couldn't get to grips with how I could be on (basically) a water fast but not be in ketosis. Thank you for your help.

@Brunneria
My carnivorous experiment was basically eat however much meat and fat I liked but after having BPC for breakfast I really didn't feel like eating much else at all. Most days it was BPC for breakfast and eggs and bacon or roast pork belly for dinner.

I didn't say PIR could take me out of ketosis,, at least I don't think I did. I just wondered whether I was actually in ketosis at all (mainly because my BGs have been in the high to low 6s since day 1, although it has finally gone down to 5.4 this afternoon). I haven't yet found a test for PIR so, apart from the absence of ketones, I wouldn't know if I've got it / going through it or not.

Then, because of not knowing about whether I'm in ketosis, I then wondered if I was triggering autophagy at all (which is the whole point of me fasting). I've probably got it wrong but I assumed that to trigger autophagy you had to be in an extended fast and proof that a keto WOE or fasting is successful is the production of ketones. I've obviously got this wrong.
 
Chook said:
I haven't yet found a test for PIR so, apart from the absence of ketones, I wouldn't know if I've got it / going through it or not.
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There isn't a test for PIR as far as I am aware. It is something that can happen when your body detects too little glucose to feed the brain, so only happens when carbs are very low (and presumably zero) but if your liver is secreting a lot of glucose because of DP, fasting or exercise or whatever, PIR may not happen as there is sufficient glucose floating about. You may never know if it is happening, but if your pre-meal levels (your baseline levels) are higher than normal with no other explanation, then it may be happening.
 
Thanks for the reply @Bluetit1802 My pre-meal levels (if I was having meals) is about the same as if I wasn't fasting. It is my BG levels that are making me wonder about PIR

On the plus side, this morning the scales were exactly 2kg less than on Monday morning. Somehow, though, I doubt I'm losing a kilo a day. I wish!
 
Yes, FBG and the other blood glucose finger prick tests that I do throughout the day at approximately the same time as I would be testing just before and two hours after mealtimes.

I'm very pleased that this morning's FBG was 5.2 it's a shame that I have to finish the fast today, just when I'm starting to get the results I wanted but I have visitors arriving for the weekend.

Scales are down 2.8 kilos since Monday, just over 6lbs.
 
Chook said:
it's a shame that I have to finish the fast today, just when I'm starting to get the results I wanted but I have visitors arriving for the weekend.
Click to expand...
Maybe you could involve them in the joys of fasting too? Less washing up for sure!
 
bulkbiker said:
Maybe you could involve them in the joys of fasting too? Less washing up for sure!
Click to expand...

Now there's a good idea. Not sure it would go down well.

I'm thinking about making 5 day fasting a regular monthly event (it would fit in well with my husband's work shifts).

I wouldn't say I enjoyed it exactly but it wasn't as awful as I anticipated and my knees (arthritis) do feel a bit better.
 
@Chook im full of admiration for you not only doing one fast of this length but also planning the next one! I take my hat off to you
 
@shelley262

Thank you.

I think the next one might be easier now I know what to expect. Hopefully.
 
Returning to low carbing after yet another diet sheet from my doctor I lost half a stone in three days going for 20gm of carbs a day (I had just got my New Diet Revolution book so it must have been about 15 or 16 years ago). That is a Kg a day - but I got so wobbly I did not dare to drive, my reaction time was noticeably longer, so I increased carbs bit by bit and got to 50 gm, which was giving me a slow but steady weightloss.
Several more diet sheets later and I no longer lose weight at 50 gm, nor even 40 gm of carbs per day - but I am losing volume and circumference, so I'll stick with that. I need to go through my whole wardrobe again to reduce waist sizes before I suffer a wardrobe malfunction in public.
 
Fantastic Chook! That's a real inspiration to me. Maybe we could set up a 5 day fast friends thread soon? I will have a go at 5 days when I've done a few more 3-day fasts, and I think BulkBiker said he'd buddy up for one.
 
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