Fasting For Type 2's

[Chook]

I haven't got my readings for yesterday to hand but during the course of the day I very slowly went down from about 8 to 4.3 before I had dinner and my readings stayed at 4.3 to 4.5 for the rest of the day even though I had steak with stilton and a large plate of various mainly green above ground veg.

Sadly this morning I woke up to higher than normal readings so am wondering if I have got sos springs to mind).

I am unable to do proper exercise due to knee problems so can't factor that in although my job is fairly active (and I suffer for it!)

 

[Indy51]

Thought this thread would be a good place to include the recent Low Carb Down Under talk by Dr Robert Szabo on Therapeutic Fasting (the doc was diagnosed himself with Type 2 at 37yo):

 

[AloeSvea]

Thought this thread would be a good place to include the recent Low Carb Down Under talk by Dr Robert Szabo on Therapeutic Fasting (the doc was diagnosed himself with Type 2 at 37yo):

Good clear communication. Has all the key information in great easy to read easily accessible format. What a good speaker and teacher Dr Szabo is. Added bonus, as you point out Indy - of him being a diabetic himself. (I always like that. Adds potency to an already potent message.) Thanks again Indy for sharing your finds and viewings.

 

[AloeSvea]

ps He must be a great doctor to have as a diabetic! (probably as an anything.)

I know they have to say that about if you have a medical condition (including diabetes) that your fasting should be medically supervised. But my own GPs - both here in the subarctic, and at home in the subtropics - would go nuts if I contacted them every time I do a fast! Even my diabetes nurse would start to get agitated.

Just between us (as I know it MUST be said for safety reasons - to be medically supervised) - it is really only necessary the first time you do it. I would say. Or it is a long one beyond 5 days. Or, you are on medication. But why if you aren't on medication? I was medically supervised when I did my first 4-5 day water only fast, then followed it with a Very Low Calorie Diet for two months. It was nothing like in the wonderful docos like Supersize/Superfat/Superjuice/SuperMichaelMosley/Super Duper Me - you know - where they get all sorts of wonderful tests and graphs and the doctors have lovely seering conversations with the patient/doco maker! (I love those docos!) No way! I think most of us in socialised medicine countries have to insist even on blood tests in such situations. Even then they say no, I have read in the forum.

My diabetes nurse whipped out a measuring tape in my first fasting/dieting supervision appointment and measured my waist - I guess to make sure I had some fat on the gut to work through (i did, and still do). And I was the one who had to beg for the HBAIcs so I could keep a track of the improvement. But that was it. The rest was just checking and adjusting calorie intake for conditions. I've had NOTHING like that basic level for fasts - as it is out of my doctors' realm of experience. I believe the fasting website I used online, recommended seeing a doctor familiar and experienced with fasting. Probably do-able in hugely populated US of A - but I live in two relatively lowly populated countries (9 million, and 4.5 million) - chance would be a fine thing! My long-winded way of saying - getting medical supervision for fasting is probably only called for if you are medication of any kind, and need to check for hypos, and adjust the medication for diabetes. The doctors and diabetes nurses (at least in my neck of the woods) will probably just look at you blankly if you asked them to supervise you for a 5-day fast.

 

[Chook]

At the beginning of last summer I went to my GP with a shopping list of things wrong with me that all turned out to be diabetes related. My GP who a) is the practice 'specialist' for diabetes and b) dislikes LCHF and really HATES fasting, told me the only way I could help myself would be to lose weight. At that time I had been steadily gaining weight using that wretched eat well plate. So in a moment of total frustration I got upset/angry and asked how I was supposed to do that when Weightwatchers, SlimmingWorld, Slimfast, etc, etc had all failed me one way or another and that I was barely able to maintain on 1000 cals/day. He stood up, shrugged his shoulders and said he thought I was being economical with the truth and that he didn't really care how I did it but that if I didn't lose weight and bring my sugars down I was going to kill myself. I did some research then took that statement as permission to start IF twice a week then soon introduced low carbing on my non fasting days. The weight is slowly going but, best of all, that shopping list of symptoms has reduced right down and I'm never hungry unless I eat a few too many carbs.

 

[Indy51]

A couple of more blogposts in Dr Fung's fasting series:

https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/cephalic-phase-response-hunger-fasting-18/
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/circadian-rhytms-fasting-17/

Also, one on bariatric surgery:
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/bariatrics-surgically-enforced-fasting-t2d-6/

 

[Indy51]

Dr Jason Fung's latest post in his Fasting Series - 20 Refeeding Syndromes:

https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/refeeding-syndromes-fasting-20/

 

[Indy51]

Dr Fung's latest fasting blogpost:

https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/obesity-solving-the-two-compartment-problem/

 

[Indy51]

Part 25 of Dr Fung's Fasting Series - Fasting and Autophagy:

https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/fasting-and-autophagy-fasting-25/

Plus a new video from the recent Vail Low Carb Conference:

 

[AloeSvea]

That fridge and freezer model of energy/fat storage is wonderful! Good ol' Dr Fung!

 

[Indy51]

Part 26 in Dr Fung's fasting series - Fasting vs Low Carb:

https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/power-comparison-fasting-vs-low-carb-fasting-26/

 

[Finsky]

I did 1 week liquid fasting few times back in 80's...but I wasn't diabetic then neither. However, I'm getting more and more interested having a go at it again..I think it might do good for my system. But now that I'm taking insulin...and on metformin...I really don't have no idea how to go on with that side of the things. I can't see asking help from NHS nurses/doctors being much help...they don't seem to agree or promote anything that by their 'books'.
But the little devil in me is rising its 'ugly' head and once I know more..I just might try it...
It would be very interesting hear from any of you how you've tackled the meds intake during fasting..or how you are planning it..

 

[AloeSvea]

Hi @Finksy - I've only read bits of Fung's 'Obesity Code' online, but he does address diabetics fasting very directly, and with strong advice in those bits I read - particularly to diabetics on medication. As in being monitored, talking to your doctor about it, or - and he doesn't say this but it makes sense (I think Dr Fuhrman does at least) - get a doctor who knows something about fasting to do this. I'm just about to eat brunch myself, but I will come back at some stage and post the bits he says on this... (Thankfully this is not a fasting day for me! Yay!) You can imagine that medical professionals in particular writing and posting on such a subject they have to be very careful around folk trying it at home (which they advocate of course!) but making sure those folk are physically safe. Hence the doctor's or diabetic team monitoring thing.

 

[AloeSvea]

Fung really is the cat's pyjamas! I'm not really into superheroes myself (although 'Catwoman' is one of my favourite movies, so maybe.....) but Fung's discussing carbohydrate restriction as bringing in Batman, and fasting as the top superhero Superman (Yeah yeah, I'm not going to comment on the obvious patriarchal thing going on here, OK - I just did! ) - a wonderful way of explaining something about diabetes treatment without medication in a clear and bold and accessible way.

 

[Finsky]

Hi @Finksy - I've only read bits of Fung's 'Obesity Code' online, but he does address diabetics fasting very directly, and with strong advice in those bits I read - particularly to diabetics on medication. As in being monitored, talking to your doctor about it, or - and he doesn't say this but it makes sense (I think Dr Fuhrman does at least) - get a doctor who knows something about fasting to do this. I'm just about to eat brunch myself, but I will come back at some stage and post the bits he says on this... (Thankfully this is not a fasting day for me! Yay!) You can imagine that medical professionals in particular writing and posting on such a subject they have to be very careful around folk trying it at home (which they advocate of course!) but making sure those folk are physically safe. Hence the doctor's or diabetic team monitoring thing.

Sorry I only just court up with your reply...
HAH...finding a doctor that would know about or even agree with fasting......rare as hen's teeth.
I'm in the middle of fasting session right now..day 3. The horrid adjusting period is just over and I'm now feeling great. As for meds...well it has kind of sorted itself out. As I was low carbing anyway and my medication levels had come down, I just left all out..been testing my blood every few hours and I've been fine. Just couple of little adjustment injections been needed when my body has released its stores and raised blood sugar levels tad high...other than that, today they've been in normal range and I've been going on without meds I'm actually feeling so good, that when I went for a walk earlier on...I found myself doing little bit running with dog ....and I HATE running...NEVER been any good at it or even able to do much of it! But there I was, 'skipping along' like a young gazelle
So that's the good news and hopefully I will carry on 'gazelling' for full 7 days until slowly adjusting back into solid food.

 

[AloeSvea]

Great to hear that the fasting has been going so well @Finsky! Skipping along like a young gazelle sounds very good to me! .

 

[Finsky]

Great to hear that the fasting has been going so well @Finsky! Skipping along like a young gazelle sounds very good to me! .

Oh no...it didn't go that well at all....the good feel factor and 'gazelling' was just one day wonder and next day I had to stop fasting as I developed such a hunger and body ache.
I couldn't get rid of that over next few days and my blood sugars started climb up even I returned to LCHF diet ...Brunneria hinted that I might be suffering with physiological insulin resistance...and after googling it and starting to eat LOTS of carbs...which is 'medicine' for the situation...I can now confirm that it was indeed that I was suffering with, I'm now feeling normal again.
But...I give myself another couple of days and then starting to ease my body back into very low(er) carb eating again. Hopefully it was just temporary issue, caused by mixed hormonal messages and it won't repeat again. If I still feel comfortable again with really low carb diet...I shall try total fasting session again. 'Gazelling' feeling is really wonderful and I could really do getting rid little bit more of my tummy 'stores'...though not that much to loose, but I like to push myself and I'm quite comfortable now with almost carb free diet.

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

Thought this thread would be a good place to include the recent Low Carb Down Under talk by Dr Robert Szabo on Therapeutic Fasting (the doc was diagnosed himself with Type 2 at 37yo):

This video is very informative. Very helpful. My health is improving by the day!

Thx

LBB

 

[AloeSvea]

@Finsky, I have written a lot in here about my own struggles with fasting, if you go to my intermittent fasting thread - you can read the lot in technicolour!

I am pleased you got to feeling better quickly!

But to cut to the chase: There are several things I do now when fasting which has made a great difference - I drink/slurp up real homemade bone broth (or better quality bought stock when we have run out of the real thing) - something to do with the vitamins and minerals, and salt. I do this at what would be lunch time, and it makes a BIG difference. I also take apple cider vinegar in hot water as a tonic, which is a great natural very good for us diabetics pick-me-up. (There is evidence it has a good effect on our BG levels/organ functioning/gut health.) These simple things have been gleaned from fasting experts and the wonderful experts in this forum. Makes a HUGE difference. Fung, and Volek and Phinney talk about the importance of keeping your salts up in low carb and fasting regimes. I think it must be true! Based on my own hugely increased ability to fast reasonably happily.

If you want to do a complete (ish) non-food fast (outside of the additions I mention - I will need those!) for a period of a week, to begin with, maybe two, I would be up for it. I like experimenting with my BG levels/insulin sensitivity heightening in this way. (Good for my kidneys, eyes, liver, pancreas and my feet!) I would need to be in between work assignments though. Wouldn't inflict my 1-2 week fasting self on - just about anyone! (Especially not unsuspecting innocents lol.) This possibility is not something I can do very soon though. But we could look out for each other in this department?

 

[Finsky]

@Finsky, I have written a lot in here about my own struggles with fasting, if you go to my intermittent fasting thread - you can read the lot in technicolour!

I am pleased you got to feeling better quickly!

But to cut to the chase: There are several things I do now when fasting which has made a great difference - I drink/slurp up real homemade bone broth (or better quality bought stock when we have run out of the real thing) - something to do with the vitamins and minerals, and salt. I do this at what would be lunch time, and it makes a BIG difference. I also take apple cider vinegar in hot water as a tonic, which is a great natural very good for us diabetics pick-me-up. (There is evidence it has a good effect on our BG levels/organ functioning/gut health.) These simple things have been gleaned from fasting experts and the wonderful experts in this forum. Makes a HUGE difference. Fung, and Volek and Phinney talk about the importance of keeping your salts up in low carb and fasting regimes. I think it must be true! Based on my own hugely increased ability to fast reasonably happily.

If you want to do a complete (ish) non-food fast (outside of the additions I mention - I will need those!) for a period of a week, to begin with, maybe two, I would be up for it. I like experimenting with my BG levels/insulin sensitivity heightening in this way. (Good for my kidneys, eyes, liver, pancreas and my feet!) I would need to be in between work assignments though. Wouldn't inflict my 1-2 week fasting self on - just about anyone! (Especially not unsuspecting innocents lol.) This possibility is not something I can do very soon though. But we could look out for each other in this department?

Oh I would love to have a go at it with your company. But I think I better carry on with LCHF and do intermittent fasting next few weeks. I've got all blood tests and appointments coming...and mum is coming her yearly visit towards end of month.....once I get her out of way I'll be ready for good system clean up...mentally and physically I might start last week this month.
I did have good read about Fung's fasting pages...I tried to keep my liquid intake and salts covered...but I might have been lacking with 'quality goods department'. I shall prepare proper broth for next time...and I already have more different vinegars in cupboard that I know what do with...good to find some use for them!
Do you do colonic irrigation during fasting? Sorry if it is bit personal question... I'm not shy of talking these sort of things.. Years ago when I did some weekly fasts....I did do enemas...I was just wondering if it is really a necessary thing to do? I do still have my 'kit' so I'm covered with that too if I need to 'go there'.
We'll I'm looking forward to have a go at it again...but I must not be hasty and I have to contain my eagerness little longer.