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Fat - is it really bad/good?

Resurgam said:
The effects of lowering carb intake have been likened to flu, but I think that the effect I got way back when I first did Atkins and tried to do 20 gm of carbs per day were false hypos, as I got them a few weeks ago. I was also losing a Kg a day, so I was feeling rather shocked. After three days I began to eat more carbs, so as to slow that down.
Click to expand...
A kilo a day?

It's day 7 here, and i've not lost anything. Perhaps you're only meant to go high fat once you've reached your optimum weight. But they also say that eating the fat increases satiety.

I'm just really confused now. I had never heard of ketogenic eating until i first started posting here and was recommended the diet doctor website, which is all about low carb keto diets. Everything i've looked into since has been around that model. They argue that ketosis is the goal, that's how you lose weight, and to get there you are meant to cut down on carbs drastically and include a commensurate increase in fats. However I'm already overweight, so maybe that is counter productive. But i've no idea. The whole model argues for a ketotic state taht is meant to be beneficial and indeed natural, but there's nothing natural about micromanaging nutrient intake, counting ingredients on apps etc.

Their protein intake is also a bit higher than normal, even though the diet argues that you shouldn't also go high protein. It isn't terribly clear why, i think it's because the body stops being ketotic once again. Some have criticised keto diets by pointing to studies showing high fat low carb high protein (erroneously) diets are dangerous. I've no idea what would constitute high protein: current dietary recommendations say .8g/kilo, while keto says about 1.2-1.4. That's a considerable increase and it is never explained why. That's a lot of protein to eat which means you end up eating a lot of meat. I don't know how healthy that is. Good luck if you're not a meat eater!

The whole ketosis thing is confusing. It seems this is indeed a natural state the body can enter even over the course of a night's sleep while fasting. But the process of adaptation can take weeks, which doesn't sound remotely appealing, and can bring on consequences that sound rather unpleasant. How safe is keto flu? Is it contraindicated for anyone? Why is it necessary if we enter ketosis as readily as going to bed and not eating until next morning?

How many keto dieters remain in ketosis and not just flit unknowingly between metabolic states? Are people meant to constantly monitor their blood? THat's not very natural.

And yet people seem to be getting something out of it. My problem is that I'm experiencing considerable cognitive dissonance with all this. Ketosis sounds lovely but also unnatural - if you have to shift your body through 'extreme' diet changes then it can't be that natural surely? Is it safe long term?

What would be really helpful would be to find a good nutritionist who is open minded to this diet, and others, understands the science and can help me out. Between what appears to be misinformed current dietary reccomendations and seemingly radical ways of eating, I'm rather lost. I'm not sure I want to eat full fat cooked breakfasts every day, no matter how delicious! And then more cooked meat for lunch and dinner!
 
Sorry, but I don't get it @ghost_whistler A recommendation is just that - you don't have to follow it. Lots of people here don't do keto. It's one method of many.

You seem to be stuck on it being The Answer, and so are trying to process it by going over and over things in order to become happy with the idea.

But you don't have to! I, and many, many other people don't eat a Keto diet because we choose not to - sometimes for the reasons you've mentioned, and for other reasons too.

You're going round in circles, I think. You express uneasiness at the idea of keto, and yet when it's explained to you that you can up your carbs a little and don't have to be in ketosis, you then seem to revert back to 'loving' keto.

There are people here who'll automatically list their favourite sites to newcomers. That does not mean they're suitable for everyone. It does not mean you have to tie yourself in mental knots trying to overcome your cognitive dissonance.

You mentioned you were seeing a counsellor. Have you discussed an approach to diet and medical worries with them?
 
@ghost_whistler

Sounds like you are very confused about what you are doing.
I will try to help a bit as I follow a ketogenic diet and have read fairly extensively on the subject.

First.. your profile gives no details about you.
Are you male or female? Yes it does seem to work differently for the different sexes
Do you have Type 2 and are you taking any medication?
Current weight BMI etc.

Lets get that established first then we can have a look at what you are doing.
 
@bulkbiker The OP has been told he doesn't have diabetes and has self-diagnosed with RH - hence my urging of caution.
 
bulkbiker said:
@ghost_whistler

Sounds like you are very confused about what you are doing.
I will try to help a bit as I follow a ketogenic diet and have read fairly extensively on the subject.

First.. your profile gives no details about you.
Are you male or female? Yes it does seem to work differently for the different sexes
Do you have Type 2 and are you taking any medication?
Current weight BMI etc.

Lets get that established first then we can have a look at what you are doing.
Click to expand...
I'm male witha history of experiencing blood sugar hypos. That's why I came here. I've been tested for diabetes and found clear. I'm five foot seven, roughly, and just above 14 stone in weight.
 
OK well this is in my opinion only.

I have followed a ketogenic diet (less than 20g of carbs per day) for the last 4 months.
Before that I followed LCHF although was probably in ketosis most of the time anyway.

I also practise fasting both intermittent and extended.

I don't have breakfast just 2 mugs of tea sometimes have lunch (or maybe just a coffee with cream and sometimes coconut oil) usually have dinner.

I don't consume an excess amount of fat but also don't fear it so will eat fat on meat cook in butter or ghee and add butter to meat if not very fatty.

I find that I do not get "hungry" very much so this way of eating ( i don't call it a "diet") suits me.

Meals are usually composed of meat and veg (above ground only) or salad and lunches eggs and bacon , or crab and avocado etc.

Sounds like you are eating a lot in your 7 days of keto also you seem under the impression that you go into ketosis overnight. This is not the case. Overnight you are effectively fasting something which I prolong by not eating breakfast.

Until you have exhausted your glucose from carbs then you cannot be in ketosis. This is why it takes time to get into ketosis and why eating carbs will push you out. The level of carbs is individual but the vast majority of people should be in ketosis with less than 20g of carbs per day which is why that figure is bandied about.

The 130g of carbs per day for your brain to work is manifestly untrue or I would be dead. Your body will make glucose for the brain if required by using protein via gluconeogenesis.

I am currently experimenting with a "zero cab" month during February where I eat only animal products (and tea and coffee) no plants at all. Cheese, cream and butter along with meat and fish.
That's me...

however I have been diagnosed with Type 2 although currently unmedicated and no symptoms. Stats are in my signature.
 
I followed the advice in Atkins - in 'New Diet Revolution' so I don't have any need for an app or to worry about much at all really.
I only need to eat twice a day, so when I feel like it I have a salad - I buy a bag of ready made salad and a net of tomatoes, and I have some meat or fish with it, and either olive oil salad dressing or mayonnaise. My husband will have a sandwich with cooked meat. I drink a cup or two of coffee with cream, and then in the evening I have the same meat or fish as my husband and some vegetables, or I have berries and cream and fewer or no veges.
When I restarted low carb last November it was difficult to start to lose weight as I seemed to be stuck needing carbs and had false hypos, but they did pass after a day or so when I kept eating just a very few carbs to get rid of the symptoms for a little while. Gradually they became less severe and faded away as my body accepted that the days of high sugar were over and gone.
The idea that eating fat makes you fat is wrong. Insulin is the fat producing hormone. When you eat carbs it is released and it converts sugar to fat in the body.
When you eat fat then the metabolism reacts like a drunken punter, becoming wasteful, upping the body temperature, spilling ketones in urine, giving extra energy all round causing extreme cheerfulness. Once it starts it doesn't know when to stop, so it keeps going, and pulls fat from cells to maintain the lifestyle, just don't sober it up with a too large dose of carbohydrate.
 
Oh - I am obese, after trying to lower cholesterol by diet for almost two years, and yes it was a kilogram a day when I first tried Atkins back in the dim and distant past - probably the 1980s.
My doctors would rather see me almost spherical than eating low carb.
 
ghost_whistler said:
A kilo a day?

It's day 7 here, and i've not lost anything. Perhaps you're only meant to go high fat once you've reached your optimum weight. But they also say that eating the fat increases satiety.

I'm just really confused now. I had never heard of ketogenic eating until i first started posting here and was recommended the diet doctor website, which is all about low carb keto diets. Everything i've looked into since has been around that model. They argue that ketosis is the goal, that's how you lose weight, and to get there you are meant to cut down on carbs drastically and include a commensurate increase in fats. However I'm already overweight, so maybe that is counter productive. But i've no idea. The whole model argues for a ketotic state taht is meant to be beneficial and indeed natural, but there's nothing natural about micromanaging nutrient intake, counting ingredients on apps etc.

Their protein intake is also a bit higher than normal, even though the diet argues that you shouldn't also go high protein. It isn't terribly clear why, i think it's because the body stops being ketotic once again. Some have criticised keto diets by pointing to studies showing high fat low carb high protein (erroneously) diets are dangerous. I've no idea what would constitute high protein: current dietary recommendations say .8g/kilo, while keto says about 1.2-1.4. That's a considerable increase and it is never explained why. That's a lot of protein to eat which means you end up eating a lot of meat. I don't know how healthy that is. Good luck if you're not a meat eater!

The whole ketosis thing is confusing. It seems this is indeed a natural state the body can enter even over the course of a night's sleep while fasting. But the process of adaptation can take weeks, which doesn't sound remotely appealing, and can bring on consequences that sound rather unpleasant. How safe is keto flu? Is it contraindicated for anyone? Why is it necessary if we enter ketosis as readily as going to bed and not eating until next morning?

How many keto dieters remain in ketosis and not just flit unknowingly between metabolic states? Are people meant to constantly monitor their blood? THat's not very natural.

And yet people seem to be getting something out of it. My problem is that I'm experiencing considerable cognitive dissonance with all this. Ketosis sounds lovely but also unnatural - if you have to shift your body through 'extreme' diet changes then it can't be that natural surely? Is it safe long term?

What would be really helpful would be to find a good nutritionist who is open minded to this diet, and others, understands the science and can help me out. Between what appears to be misinformed current dietary reccomendations and seemingly radical ways of eating, I'm rather lost. I'm not sure I want to eat full fat cooked breakfasts every day, no matter how delicious! And then more cooked meat for lunch and dinner!
Click to expand...
I recommend you read the output from Dr Jason Fung. He gives clear, well founded advice.
Here is what he has to say on protein consumption.
https://www.dietdoctor.com/how-much-protein-should-you-eat#more-350264
As well as Diet Doctor, you can find his stuff on the Intensive Dietary Management blog.
Good reading!
 
BrianTheElder said:
I recommend you read the output from Dr Jason Fung. He gives clear, well founded advice.
Here is what he has to say on protein consumption.
https://www.dietdoctor.com/how-much-protein-should-you-eat#more-350264
As well as Diet Doctor, you can find his stuff on the Intensive Dietary Management blog.
Good reading!
Click to expand...
Thank you.

His estimates are in line with standard dietary recommendations, though I have seen some keto sources argue for much higher, upwards of 1g/kg. That's quite a difference. This sort of confusion is part of the problem
 
bulkbiker said:
OK well this is in my opinion only.

I have followed a ketogenic diet (less than 20g of carbs per day) for the last 4 months.
Before that I followed LCHF although was probably in ketosis most of the time anyway.

I also practise fasting both intermittent and extended.

I don't have breakfast just 2 mugs of tea sometimes have lunch (or maybe just a coffee with cream and sometimes coconut oil) usually have dinner.

I don't consume an excess amount of fat but also don't fear it so will eat fat on meat cook in butter or ghee and add butter to meat if not very fatty.

I find that I do not get "hungry" very much so this way of eating ( i don't call it a "diet") suits me.

Meals are usually composed of meat and veg (above ground only) or salad and lunches eggs and bacon , or crab and avocado etc.

Sounds like you are eating a lot in your 7 days of keto also you seem under the impression that you go into ketosis overnight. This is not the case. Overnight you are effectively fasting something which I prolong by not eating breakfast.

Until you have exhausted your glucose from carbs then you cannot be in ketosis. This is why it takes time to get into ketosis and why eating carbs will push you out. The level of carbs is individual but the vast majority of people should be in ketosis with less than 20g of carbs per day which is why that figure is bandied about.

The 130g of carbs per day for your brain to work is manifestly untrue or I would be dead. Your body will make glucose for the brain if required by using protein via gluconeogenesis.

I am currently experimenting with a "zero cab" month during February where I eat only animal products (and tea and coffee) no plants at all. Cheese, cream and butter along with meat and fish.
That's me...

however I have been diagnosed with Type 2 although currently unmedicated and no symptoms. Stats are in my signature.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the reply. If your way of eating works for you, then you'll hear no complaints from me.

The issue with the keto thing I think stems from how it's presented. It's not the low carb aspect per se that I have an issue with, in fact I tend to agree with the opinion that carbs are not the ideal food for us - and that's before considering how food these days is manufactured cooked and served up to us. We do not live naturally much anymore, if at all. This is obvious from the current obesity crisis. I've had weight problems for years, ever since the late 90's when i found myself (if memory serves) eating a large plate of white pasta with tuna and cheese daily. Now i'm needing to go from 14st to 11. Quite a drop and something I've never found easy, even though i've never hugely obsessed about it.

So the keto thing is twofold for me:

1. The cognitive dissonance surrounding fat. Some people say it's healthy; they seem scholarly and qualified, but are in diametric opposition to the current paradigm. THis isn't as simple a debate as which colour shoes shall i wear today either. It could be, and for some it is, life or death. I have no problem with eating fat - just with whether I believe the evidence is clear.

2. Nutritional ketosis. You say that one doesn't enter ketosis over night, but that's a claim made in this discussion already. I suspect there is unintentional equivocation over that word. I think the over night ketosis is just the word used to describe the simple fasting state we enter at times like sleep. What the diet people are talking about seems to be Nutritional Ketosis, which seems to be a little bit different. A state that requires a specific diet that is only reached after a possibly significant period and potentially some physical hardship (YMMV).

THis is an issue because it sounds artifical and rather 'health guru'-esque. Having to put yourself into what seems like an unnatural metabolic state sounds extreme! Like a david blaine stunt. Then having to maintain it by ferociously micromanaging your diet and counting carbs? Is that reasonable or normal? Yet people speak euphorically about it.

It's not the low carb element that's the issue: if this was just 'eat less carbs and be healthy' that would be fine. It's all this extra mysterious stuff that leaves so many questions in the mind, which is what i've had. Of course searching the internet for answers is like hopscotch across a minefield; everyone's got an opinion on this and everyone seems to know the truth, no matter if their answers conflict with others.

that's not a dig at anyone here, btw. I'm really talking about reddit. Most of the other keto websites i've looked at, including Diet Doctor, hide their content behind paywalls, which is not entirely helpful.

So this whole nutritional ketosis thing is anomalous. Is it natural? It is even really safe for everyone? Why does it make some people ill at the outset? Does everyone who reduces the carb intake, for any reason, invariably enter this state? I presume they must since that's the requirement.

Then there's the question of how you meet your caloric requirements if you do reduce carbs, because of course it isn't just as simple as choosing not to eat X, that's simple enough. If you go down 100g carbs or so, as I have by cutting wheat and rice (which i'm fine with), then that shortfall is going to be felt, even if you reduce your calories in order to lose weight. You surely can't just reduce them massively without balance - or can you?

IIRC (and please correct me anyone if I'm wrong), there's 4cal per gram of carb and protein. So on lets say 30g carb and 80g protein, which seems a reasonable amount (for me at least), that's 440cals. You get 9cals per g of fat, so if you want to add another 1200 on top of that you're looking at 133g fat. I've no idea what my fat intake was previously, but conventional dietary requirements (wrongly or not) advocate half this. THat's still a relavtively low caloric intake, evne for losing weight I think. But again, please correct me if I'm wrong.

So that's what this is all about for me.

It may be that I've eaten a lot over the last 7 days. Breakfast was 2 sausages, 2 slices bacon, 1oz kale, an avocado, dinner was 1 chicken leg portion, fried cauli rice, pepper, broccoli and mushroom, with an oz raw spinach and maybe some cabbage. I find eating stuff like broccoli cabbabe and kale hard going if it's not cooked somehow; like chewing sand. Lunch varied between sliced cheese, lettuce, brazil nuts and hardboiled eggs (i had 2 today, while i was in town), and a smaller portion of cooked chicken (a thigh portion from tesco) and some cabbage/lettuce, and nuts. If that's too much, I've no idea. I was focussing on those darned macros using myfitness pal to track it all.

Sorry for the enormous reply; i hope your condition improves as others seem to have experienced.
 
ghost_whistler said:
Thank you.

His estimates are in line with standard dietary recommendations, though I have seen some keto sources argue for much higher, upwards of 1g/kg. That's quite a difference. This sort of confusion is part of the problem
Click to expand...
I notice that some of my friends have difficulty making decisions when there are a lot of options.
At the end of the day, you have to go for what seems right to you.
In my case, I notice an instant weight reaction when I go over 60g protein in a day (I weigh 75kg). Given that I am on less than 20g carbs, that makes my diet very difficult to balance as I also need to keep up my calories. But I am happy with my decision.
 
From what I have briefly skimmed through only you said you enter ketosis overnight...you don't.

As for the cognitive dissonance about eating fat - that has been around for the last 50 years or so since the Ancel Keys study which is dubious to say the least.

Before our diets became loaded with carbs/sugar I think you will find that ketosis was probably a far more natural state to be in so the current diet may well be the abnormal one.

I would also say that the LCHF diet should work almost as well so if eating the fat puts you off then as others have said don't do it. The main point of upping the fat content is to maintain your calorific intake as you exclude most carbs and also provide a level of satiety. I don't count anything - neither carbs nor calories I don't feel I need to. I maybe eat once or twice a day max and feel satiated the rest of the time. You seem to be eating a lot more often bt then again you don't have insulin resistance like me.

I'm afraid as others have said if you don't want to do it then don't. And if you don't as yet know what's wrong with you (if anything) then maybe find that out first before making any changes to what you eat.

If you want to try something else then please do so.

Your body, your condition (maybe), your decision.
 
BrianTheElder said:
I notice that some of my friends have difficulty making decisions when there are a lot of options.
At the end of the day, you have to go for what seems right to you.
In my case, I notice an instant weight reaction when I go over 60g protein in a day (I weigh 75kg). Given that I am on less than 20g carbs, that makes my diet very difficult to balance as I also need to keep up my calories. But I am happy with my decision.
Click to expand...
What do you mean by instant weight reaction? You mean you feel your weight actually increases?

May i ask if you consume a lot of fat?

May I ask if you experience this nutritional ketosis? If so has it worked fo ryou?

Thanks
 
ghost_whistler said:
what do you eat in place of wheat?
Click to expand...
I do not replace wheat with anything really I just avoid eating anything made with it but some people do replace wheat and bake with alternative flours like coconut and almond. I never had much of a sweet tooth before diabetes so rarely ate cakes and biscuits etc and was never a big bread eater either so I don't miss them
 
I
ghost_whistler said:
Thanks for the reply. If your way of eating works for you, then you'll hear no complaints from me.

The issue with the keto thing I think stems from how it's presented. It's not the low carb aspect per se that I have an issue with, in fact I tend to agree with the opinion that carbs are not the ideal food for us - and that's before considering how food these days is manufactured cooked and served up to us. We do not live naturally much anymore, if at all. This is obvious from the current obesity crisis. I've had weight problems for years, ever since the late 90's when i found myself (if memory serves) eating a large plate of white pasta with tuna and cheese daily. Now i'm needing to go from 14st to 11. Quite a drop and something I've never found easy, even though i've never hugely obsessed about it.

So the keto thing is twofold for me:

1. The cognitive dissonance surrounding fat. Some people say it's healthy; they seem scholarly and qualified, but are in diametric opposition to the current paradigm. THis isn't as simple a debate as which colour shoes shall i wear today either. It could be, and for some it is, life or death. I have no problem with eating fat - just with whether I believe the evidence is clear.

2. Nutritional ketosis. You say that one doesn't enter ketosis over night, but that's a claim made in this discussion already. I suspect there is unintentional equivocation over that word. I think the over night ketosis is just the word used to describe the simple fasting state we enter at times like sleep. What the diet people are talking about seems to be Nutritional Ketosis, which seems to be a little bit different. A state that requires a specific diet that is only reached after a possibly significant period and potentially some physical hardship (YMMV).

THis is an issue because it sounds artifical and rather 'health guru'-esque. Having to put yourself into what seems like an unnatural metabolic state sounds extreme! Like a david blaine stunt. Then having to maintain it by ferociously micromanaging your diet and counting carbs? Is that reasonable or normal? Yet people speak euphorically about it.

It's not the low carb element that's the issue: if this was just 'eat less carbs and be healthy' that would be fine. It's all this extra mysterious stuff that leaves so many questions in the mind, which is what i've had. Of course searching the internet for answers is like hopscotch across a minefield; everyone's got an opinion on this and everyone seems to know the truth, no matter if their answers conflict with others.

that's not a dig at anyone here, btw. I'm really talking about reddit. Most of the other keto websites i've looked at, including Diet Doctor, hide their content behind paywalls, which is not entirely helpful.

So this whole nutritional ketosis thing is anomalous. Is it natural? It is even really safe for everyone? Why does it make some people ill at the outset? Does everyone who reduces the carb intake, for any reason, invariably enter this state? I presume they must since that's the requirement.

Then there's the question of how you meet your caloric requirements if you do reduce carbs, because of course it isn't just as simple as choosing not to eat X, that's simple enough. If you go down 100g carbs or so, as I have by cutting wheat and rice (which i'm fine with), then that shortfall is going to be felt, even if you reduce your calories in order to lose weight. You surely can't just reduce them massively without balance - or can you?

IIRC (and please correct me anyone if I'm wrong), there's 4cal per gram of carb and protein. So on lets say 30g carb and 80g protein, which seems a reasonable amount (for me at least), that's 440cals. You get 9cals per g of fat, so if you want to add another 1200 on top of that you're looking at 133g fat. I've no idea what my fat intake was previously, but conventional dietary requirements (wrongly or not) advocate half this. THat's still a relavtively low caloric intake, evne for losing weight I think. But again, please correct me if I'm wrong.

So that's what this is all about for me.

It may be that I've eaten a lot over the last 7 days. Breakfast was 2 sausages, 2 slices bacon, 1oz kale, an avocado, dinner was 1 chicken leg portion, fried cauli rice, pepper, broccoli and mushroom, with an oz raw spinach and maybe some cabbage. I find eating stuff like broccoli cabbabe and kale hard going if it's not cooked somehow; like chewing sand. Lunch varied between sliced cheese, lettuce, brazil nuts and hardboiled eggs (i had 2 today, while i was in town), and a smaller portion of cooked chicken (a thigh portion from tesco) and some cabbage/lettuce, and nuts. If that's too much, I've no idea. I was focussing on those darned macros using myfitness pal to track it all.

Sorry for the enormous reply; i hope your condition improves as others seem to have experienced.
Click to expand...

I think you have actually been reading to much and totally confused yourself there is such a thing as to much information you don't need all that just be sensible. You have not been diagnosed with anything yet it is likely you may not have anything wrong so wait until you know. If you really want to do anything at all nowlower or cut out the starchy carbs and sugar eat more fat if you want to and I am sure you will loose some weight and your BG will be fine but it will not happen overnight
 
ghost_whistler said:
What do you mean by instant weight reaction? You mean you feel your weight actually increases?

May i ask if you consume a lot of fat?

May I ask if you experience this nutritional ketosis? If so has it worked fo ryou?

Thanks
Click to expand...
I find my weight always increases when I weigh myself the following morning.
I eat about 150g/day of fat. Typically chorizo or similar, bacon, cheese, pate, butter, eggs, double cream. The sort of thing that "clogs up your arteries". I also eat berries and green vegetables and lots of salad stuff. Home-made nut/seed muesli with Alpro for breakfast.
I aim to stay in nutritional ketosis. My ketones average 2.5mmol/l, right in the middle of the optimum range. If I have much over my fat or protein limits, my body quits ketosis and it takes me about 4 days to recover. For that reason alone, I try to be strict.
If you look at my medical record, you will se that it works very well.
I have also lost weight and feel good and alert.
 
BrianTheElder said:
I find my weight always increases when I weigh myself the following morning.
I eat about 150g/day of fat. Typically chorizo or similar, bacon, cheese, pate, butter, eggs, double cream. The sort of thing that "clogs up your arteries". I also eat berries and green vegetables and lots of salad stuff. Home-made nut/seed muesli with Alpro for breakfast.
I aim to stay in nutritional ketosis. My ketones average 2.5mmol/l, right in the middle of the optimum range. If I have much over my fat or protein limits, my body quits ketosis and it takes me about 4 days to recover. For that reason alone, I try to be strict.
If you look at my medical record, you will se that it works very well.
I have also lost weight and feel good and alert.
Click to expand...
How long did it take your body to adapt? Did you experience the keto fly side effects?
 
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