Feedback From My Gp And Dn Appointments This Week.

Goonergal

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Thanks for posting this @Pipp, I have printed off a copy as a present for my GP at my appt on Friday! ;)

Seconding that @Pipp first ever nurses appointment coming up after the bank holiday (always the GP until now), so will have this in reserve. GP has been very supportive. Suspect it’ll be the cholesterol conversation that comes up in my case, but will be armed with my ratios!
 

DavidGrahamJones

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He said if I hadn't tested and just lost that much weight on a normal diet (I presume he meant calorie contolled or low fat) my hba1c would have come down anyway (mine came down from diabetic level 62 in December to non diabetic level 41 in May).

Well done on your excellent result. I wonder if your doctor knows how the body counts calories? Sorry, I've been doing all the right things, reduced calorie, low fat, for the best part of ten years and I've got the food diaries to show it. Yes, I lost some weight but the medical profession cannot explain why my "plateau" has lasted so long. I've recently been watching a lot of Jason Fung videos and after all these years I feel that I have found somebody who actually makes sense.

As for the weight loss alone being responsible for one's HbA1c coming down I found this in a BMJ article:

"In contrast, consistent evidence shows that weight loss is associated with extended life expectancy for people with diabetes, and that weight loss of around 15 kg often produces total remission of type 2 diabetes, they write."

I have a problem, I gained 40 kgs thanks to being prescribed Rosiglitazone and then being prescribed Citilapram for the anxiety caused by weight gain. Then when the Rosiglitazone started to affect my liver function I stopped taking it and lost 45 kgs but because my BG was increasing I was prescribed Gliclazide, yet another drug increasing insulin production (insulin, the fat storing hormone) and yes I gained 10 kgs. I think the statement "that weight loss of around 15kg often produces total remission" is definitely misleading and probably inaccurate. Not entirely wrong, but not entirely right.

So, basically, you doctor needs to update his knowledge. If you think of how old your GP is and when he went to medical school, that's probably how old his knowledge is.

. . . . please do not confuse your Google with my medical degree

Bit arrogant. Google may not have all the answers, but a medical degree certainly doesn't make anyone an expert on diet, nutrition or diabetes. The clue is in his job title, General Practitioner.

She told me there is a patient participation group for all 20 practices in my town.

Brilliant idea, my wife goes to her surgery's PPG and it has been an eye opener as to how the surgery works and the problems they encounter. You might find, as in my wife's PPG, that it's more a platform for the GPs to get their message across and also where there are multiple surgeries (my wife's practice has 2 surgeries in totally different areas, although only a few miles apart) issues being discussed may concentrate more on one area than another. Although one would think that Diabetes is a problem to varying degrees whatever social background, race.

I'm having a cup personalised and will be waving it around.....'doctors why don't you listen to diabetics and STOP KILLING US' .....not sure I'm quite so brave though

If his medical degree has empowered him with so much knowledge about diet, nutrition, diabetes perhaps he'd liked to say how much time they spend studying any of them in their medical degree. In the 70s and 80s it wasn't much, perhaps it's changed. What's more important is that you already have an ally, your DN, who sounds like a good'n. Hang on to her and cultivate the relationship, she might eventually get the GP listening to what's going on in the world of diabetes. Maybe?
 

zand

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I used to think of my GP as a doctor. Now I think of him merely as a doctor of medicine. If I don't feel I need drugs or blood tests I stay away. My nice doctor (so sad that he's left the practice now) used to think it was great when his patients used Doctor Google, it cut down consultation time and made sure the patients included all the relevant symptoms. I would go in to him with a list of what Dr Google said could be wrong and he would consider them . Nice guy, no ego, he just wanted to help his patients.
 

rhubarb73

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All power to you, @Debandez . Something I find useful when in conversation with HCPs is a copy of Dr David Unwin's (aka Southport GP, a member here) Low carb info for his patients. The fact that he saves money through the need for less prescriptions for diabetes meds for his patients usually makes them take notice. Money talks.

I have read Dr Unwin’s paper carefully- it is very compelling. I note though that in his conclusion he chooses his words carefully saying he understands the internet enthusiasm for low carb.
It’s like saying in the medieval court that he understands why there are some radical people saying the earth is not flat after all, without entirely moving over to their side.
Not sure if that is just diplomatic language or enough to get him burned as a heretic anyway in some NHS quarters- it suggests to me that taking sides in this debate is a difficult thing for doctors so it is good he has stuck his neck out this far.
 
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DCUKMod

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I have read Dr Unwin’s paper carefully- it is very compelling. I note though that in his conclusion he chooses his words carefully saying he understands the internet enthusiasm for low carb.
It’s like saying in the medieval court that he understands why there are some radical people saying the earth is not flat after all, without entirely moving over to their side.
Not sure if that is just diplomatic language or enough to get him burned as a heretic anyway in some NHS quarters- it suggests to me that taking sides in this debate is a difficult thing for doctors so it is good he has stuck his neck out this far.

I think it's worth noting that when Dr Unwin's paper came out it was very, very much against the more common and popular tide, in terms of T2 diabetes management, whereas the conversations around LC/Reduced Carb or however else we choose to express it, are more mature and better received in many quarters these days.

There is more and more evidence from more papers/studies as well as lots of n1 anecdotal stuff appearing all the time, and the seeminly repellant edges have been knocked off the concept.

We are in interesting times.
 
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bulkbiker

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Seconding that @Pipp first ever nurses appointment coming up after the bank holiday (always the GP until now), so will have this in reserve. GP has been very supportive. Suspect it’ll be the cholesterol conversation that comes up in my case, but will be armed with my ratios!
Blind them with up to date science...!
 
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bulkbiker

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Not sure if that is just diplomatic language or enough to get him burned as a heretic anyway in some NHS quarters- it suggests to me that taking sides in this debate is a difficult thing for doctors so it is good he has stuck his neck out this far.
He did get theNHS Innovator of the Year Award in 2016 so hopefully his views are becoming more mainstream in the medical world. I just sent a link to his stuff to the GP rep on my local PPG who I am trying to get up to speed on low carbing. Also now there is the Royal College of GP's online learning course about Low Carb for Type 2 I hope there maybe some progress being made. It has been well received by some GP's reporting on Twitter at least.
 
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britishpub

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Quite frankly I'm amazed :wideyed:

A 20 minute appointment with your GP ??????

I'm lucky if I can get all of the 10 minutes my GP allocates per appointment :banghead:
 

Debandez

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A question for your Dr is how many T2s has he treated who have managed to get to normal Hba1C within 12 months and how did they do it?
Followed by “don’t confuse your dusty old lecture notes with real live evidence of thousands of LCHF pioneers”.
I love the Pioneer label. We could be 't2 pioneers'. Trying to come up with a name for our group at the event. T2crew has a ring to it.

I am going to phone up and see if they can supply me with the stats you suggest. It would prove very interesting but not sure they have that info. Can but try.
 

Pipp

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Blind them with up to date science...!
Sort of.
The reason I stick with the journal article from Dr Unwin in my quest to convince HCPs is that it is so simply put and doesn't come across as too radical. Being a GP who has worked with his patients and found a successful way to control T2, means Dr Unwin has something in common with the doc or nurse sitting in front of me, in that they have similar patients. The paper is easy and quick to read, so they can actually scan read it during my10 mins allocated appointment time.
The only flaw in my trying to convince them is that I remain fat, and currently am struggling with raised BG levels. So I am passing this particular baton to those of you having more success, as I don't want to give the HCPs any reason to rubbish the concept.
 

bulkbiker

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Sort of.
The reason I stick with the journal article from Dr Unwin in my quest to convince HCPs is that it is so simply put and doesn't come across as too radical. Being a GP who has worked with his patients and found a successful way to control T2, means Dr Unwin has something in common with the doc or nurse sitting in front of me, in that they have similar patients. The paper is easy and quick to read, so they can actually scan read it during my10 mins allocated appointment time.
The only flaw in my trying to convince them is that I remain fat, and currently am struggling with raised BG levels. So I am passing this particular baton to those of you having more success, as I don't want to give the HCPs any reason to rubbish the concept.
Agree completely... I was more referring to @Goonergal 's cholesterol ratio argument.
 
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rhubarb73

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He did get theNHS Innovator of the Year Award in 2016 so hopefully his views are becoming more mainstream in the medical world.
I love it that listening to your patients and looking at relevant evidence gets you innovation awards in the NHS (a criticism of his peers not Dr Unwin).

Interesting that he quotes Dr Briffa. I’ve met Briffa a couple of times and even had a 30 minute 1-2-1 with him a few years ago where he suggested some changes I could make to my diet.
All made sense at the time but I didn’t perceive myself at risk so the changes never stuck. Old habits returned.
If I could turn back time, as Cher would say.
 
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Pipp

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I hadn't thought of it like that but now you mention it...and I thought I was the forum cynic!
I think there are a few of us. Some more covert than others.
;)
 
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Pipp

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Agree completely... I was more referring to @Goonergal 's cholesterol ratio argument.
Yes, sorry. I see that now.
(Note to self: Not up to multitasking so stop watching athletics and pay attention).
For the cholesterol discussion I expect the Q-risk score, so go armed with counter argument, particularly as a woman of a cerain age.
 

Guzzler

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Yes, sorry. I see that now.
(Note to self: Not up to multitasking so stop watching athletics and pay attention).
For the cholesterol discussion I expect the Q-risk score, so go armed with counter argument, particularly as a woman of a cerain age.

Yup. It seems that I am, in fact, immortal :D
 
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Debandez

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A question for your Dr is how many T2s has he treated who have managed to get to normal Hba1C within 12 months and how did they do it?
Followed by “don’t confuse your dusty old lecture notes with real live evidence of thousands of LCHF pioneers”.

UPDATE
Good news. I'm now on my surgeries PPG. I've just sent an email to the practice manager who I'm now in touch with asking for these stats. I will let you know what they come back with :) great question.
 
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Debandez

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Fantastic keep plugging away you are doing an amazing thing x
I'm like a woman possessed on this one! I've always believed in putting up a fight when things aren't right. I have a complaints template actually. It sounds like I'm a right moan but I'm not. I'm an extremely positive and upbeat person. Glass half full. But I hate it when things aren't fair and have to fight my corner. Always been the same. I don't think my complaints template will get the response we need on this massive issue! It needs more drastic action! And more than just me. And we are doing just that:) #togetherwecandoit
 

Debandez

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Well done on your excellent result. I wonder if your doctor knows how the body counts calories? Sorry, I've been doing all the right things, reduced calorie, low fat, for the best part of ten years and I've got the food diaries to show it. Yes, I lost some weight but the medical profession cannot explain why my "plateau" has lasted so long. I've recently been watching a lot of Jason Fung videos and after all these years I feel that I have found somebody who actually makes sense.

As for the weight loss alone being responsible for one's HbA1c coming down I found this in a BMJ article:

"In contrast, consistent evidence shows that weight loss is associated with extended life expectancy for people with diabetes, and that weight loss of around 15 kg often produces total remission of type 2 diabetes, they write."

I have a problem, I gained 40 kgs thanks to being prescribed Rosiglitazone and then being prescribed Citilapram for the anxiety caused by weight gain. Then when the Rosiglitazone started to affect my liver function I stopped taking it and lost 45 kgs but because my BG was increasing I was prescribed Gliclazide, yet another drug increasing insulin production (insulin, the fat storing hormone) and yes I gained 10 kgs. I think the statement "that weight loss of around 15kg often produces total remission" is definitely misleading and probably inaccurate. Not entirely wrong, but not entirely right.

So, basically, you doctor needs to update his knowledge. If you think of how old your GP is and when he went to medical school, that's probably how old his knowledge is.



Bit arrogant. Google may not have all the answers, but a medical degree certainly doesn't make anyone an expert on diet, nutrition or diabetes. The clue is in his job title, General Practitioner.



Brilliant idea, my wife goes to her surgery's PPG and it has been an eye opener as to how the surgery works and the problems they encounter. You might find, as in my wife's PPG, that it's more a platform for the GPs to get their message across and also where there are multiple surgeries (my wife's practice has 2 surgeries in totally different areas, although only a few miles apart) issues being discussed may concentrate more on one area than another. Although one would think that Diabetes is a problem to varying degrees whatever social background, race.



If his medical degree has empowered him with so much knowledge about diet, nutrition, diabetes perhaps he'd liked to say how much time they spend studying any of them in their medical degree. In the 70s and 80s it wasn't much, perhaps it's changed. What's more important is that you already have an ally, your DN, who sounds like a good'n. Hang on to her and cultivate the relationship, she might eventually get the GP listening to what's going on in the world of diabetes. Maybe?

I hear your story. What a journey you have been on. And then you found Jason fung. I found him too. He makes great sense and I could actually understand what he was saying too. No jargon.and yes they are general practitioners. A little knowledge about a lot of things. My diagnosis has really opened up my eyes. Anyway I'm on the PPG now. Ive asked my first question of many! Just waiting for my reply. Hoping this is going to be a positive experience.
 
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