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friends trying to talk me out of low carbing

the_anticarb

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Hi guys,

I was subjected to a three hour 'please we love you don't do this its not healthy' rant by some well meaning friends last night who are trying to stop me from low carbing. I tried to explain that it's the only way I have found to control my diabetes, and my life has much improved as a result, but to no avail.

When I said my diet is moderate - high fat, despite the fact that I have lost 1.5 stone in the last 4 months, they said that I am going to get heart disease, clog up my arteries etc if I don't cut out the fat. I tried to explain that if I low carb and low fat, there'll only be protein and veg left to eat, which isn't enough to fill me up. I also told them that I had that very day enjoyed a breakfast of sausages, bacon, egg, black pudding and fried mushrooms, (don't do this every day just a weekend treat) and they were aghast!

They can't believe that what I am doing will not have long term negative health implications. My friend said 'What if I told you I was giving up protein for the rest of my life, would you not be concerned? How can you cut out a major food group?'

In the end we agreed to disagree on it, but I just need someone to tell me that there are no long term disadvantages with low carbing, as they have made me question myself now. (They think this site is brainwashing me!! )

I got quite angry at one point, as they don't have to live with being diabetic so it's very easy for them to tell me what they would do! But I know they genuinely care for me and my health.

Other low carbers must have had this kind of experience before - how did you deal with it?

AC
 
anticarb, there are a couple of things in your post that I don't understand, but I suspect that is because they could have been worded slightly differently or because I am still half asleep :roll: If my response does not make sense, then I have misunderstood.

You are reducing your carbs not cutting them out, although I'm about to cut carbs out as much as possible for a couple of weeks before reintorducing them. You will also be following a higher protien diet with higher fat. That looks like all those food groups they are concerned about - especially as protien can be converted to carbohydrate in the body anyway.

You are not obliged to discuss your health with anyone you don't want to. However, you could chose to share youe numbers - for your blood glucose, HbA1c and cholesterol, the especially the HDL/LDL ratio and the trigs. If that is not convincing evidence, nothing is.

I have had a few raised eyebrows when I have said I'm low carbing, accompanied by a pursing of lips with the associated increased fat. I think the bad press the Atkins diet has had may be responsible for this. Low carb is clearly a dangerous diet for anyone who has swallowed the NHS healthy plate advice hook line and sinker.

I just look at the numbers reported by the low carbers on here. They are real people with real lives. Some of them have been doing it for years. there are also anumber of world class atheltes who low carb and we have health professionals on here who go against the standard healthy plate advice.

I have become more selective about who I share my new-found wisdom with. One of my colleagues also low carbs by avoiding bread, pasta, rice and potatoes most of the time. She isn't overweight but has a long term back problem and needs to manage her weight carefully to maintain her posture, she is lower fat/lower carb.

I have told most people what I'm doing, but I try not to be evangelical about it because life is simply too short to get embroiled in endless arguments with people who's minds are closed. I have had support because I they can see how much weight I have lost and how much better I look with more energy and almost eliminated the headaches. I have focused on the numbers I'm getting - closer to normal and healthy. I have only been doing this for a couple of months.

It takes quite a lot of courage and confidence to disregard medical advice. But we all the the right to do this, even if we are wrong. I happen to believe we are being given bad advice in relation to our diet as diabetics and have seen a lot of evidence that supports my approach - from other users here and the improved numbers I'm getting after a comparatively short time.

Edited for spelling and to make a couple of things clearer.
 
Hi Ac.

Stick with what you know is good for your health and ignore the detractors. It is YOUR health after all. If you want to low carb then stick with it. Show them the success stories here and elsewhere.

I'm not strictly a pure low carber. I am really a low GI person who just reduced carbs drastically to no more than about 60g per day. This is considered low carbs so I can post here. I also use a low fat method, so again not pure low carbs/high fat. This is because I have already had major heart surgery and I want to ensure I don't have any more. My choice and I no others tell me I won't have a problem with high fat. That's fine, but it is MY body after all ?
That has worked great for me and allowed me to lose over 3 stone, get Bg levels down to between 5 - 6 most days as well and as stated elsewhere get my eyesight back to pre 2001 levels meaning I don't need glasses anymore. Vitality and health has improved so much. Medications stopped or cut right back. I no longer rattle !! I wish I had reduced my carbs years ago. Then maybe I wouldn't have ended up here ? then again, I wouldn't have met such great people either - so maybe it was destiny ?

Good luck to you Ac.

Ken.
 
For over a year I have been on a reduced carb, higher fat diet. I love cheese & am using a lot more butter - even for frying.

I've been followed by the Imperial College SABRE project (Southall And BREnt) which survey a few thousand people 17 years ago to study the incidence of heart disease & diabetes in the immigrant population (with me as control.)

I was not at risk for either disease then, & total cholesterol =6.4 was not considered a problem. When I was diagnosed with diabetes 10 years ago, cholesterol was 7.6 & they helpfully computed my heart attack risk of 25%. PANIC :!:

I changed to reduced carb from the NHS/DUK diet because of complications - particularly disabling leg muscle pain. That substantially cleared in 3 months.

The SABRE tests included every conceivable non-invasive scan, including lying there in my underpants while a very pretty technician had her arm round me taking ultrasonic photos of my heart. Good job I'm spoken for :wink:

I'm still waiting for the proper report, but the technicians found nothing amiss.

One heart observation I have made is wearing a heart rate monitor while playing tennis. While on the NHS/DUK diet it would go above 150 during rallies. I would often wait for it to drop below 150 before continuing. Now it rarely goes above 145. That was during a set of singles.

Low carbing, including increased animal fat, appears to be beneficial to my heart.
 
There are a number of studies that have discounted any real issues with low-carb diets and a few that have shown positive results, especially for Diabetics. I have seen posts on here with links that you may be able to find if you do a search.

You could also try pointing out that many cultures, like the Inuit, live quite well and healthily with virtually no carbs at all - they get the nutrients they need from fish, raw, cooked and putrefied, meat and at least 50% blubber.

Other cultures like the Kalahari Bushmen exist on meat, fat, nuts, seeds, tubers and fruit. Other cultures may have higher carb intake but it is all natural and unprocessed. It is the 'civilised' World that eats the extremely high-carb, high-sugar Western Diet that suffers with all the modern diseases.

There was a series of programmes on the TV a while ago where 2 Doctors visited different cultures and lived with them for a fortnight at a time. One programme featured a community on the Eastern Seaboard of Siberia. They live on fish, whale and Walrus and blubber. They are fit and healthy, no one ever gets sick (they only die of old age or accident), they could withstand the severe cold and their Cholesterol was around 2.8.

Interestingly there was one person whose Cholesterol was much higher at over 6 - the leader of the fishermen. Turns out that while most others eat the indigenous diet, his favourite food is American hot dogs (high-carb) that he gets from the little store and his wife bakes loads of cake and buns (surprise, surprise, he was also overweight).

When the Doctors arrived they took their vitals including their cholesterol level. They are twins and both of them were at about 4.2. One ate whatever he wanted from the store including bread, cake, jam, etc., and the other ate the indigenous diet including the putrefied Walrus! At the end of the two weeks the one on the 'anything' diet was unchanged. The other's had gone down to - yup, you guessed it - 2.8.

I really can't think of a better argument than that!

PS. Knowledge is power. The more you know about the benefits of low-carb the more you will have the confidence to combat any 'flack'. Keeping a folder of info could be helpful too - you could always throw it at them!

Tell them to actually prove that low-carbing is dangerous. They won't be able to. Anyone with an ounce of common sense can see the damage that the 'normal' high-carb diet is doing to people. Everyone should be eating low-carb if they want to be healthy. For all their low-fat propaganda the Government is not actually seeing any benefit and the epidemic of obesity and diabetes is still going through the roof. Low-fat is so obviously not working but no one has the courage to stand up and say so..........
 
Thanks everyone who replied, I knew that I was right and they were wrong but just needed someone to remind me! For me, after being diagnosed with retinopathy and being told that if I didn't sort myself out I'd go blind in 5-10 years, having controlled blood sugars is the priority above all else and low carbing is my way of doing that. Also I think I was pretty much addicted to carbs before, both physically and psychologically and to be free of that constant pressure to put **** down my gullet is just wonderful.
I guess we are all just ahead of the curve, and this was what it was like for Darwin when he came up with the theory of evolution, or for whoever it was who realised the earth was not flat!


Anticarb

PS maybe my friends are just jealous that I can eat a full english breakfast and still lose weight!!
 
Hi,

My sister still gets very angry that I won't eat carbohydrate in her house... :!: :?: On indeed anywhere. I think people will always worry when you challenge the norm.

I was going to post a link to a list of arguments that a few of us came up with setting out the benefits of a low carb approach, and countering the often heard arguments against but the post was quite long as it was revised a number of times, so here is the last draft of it: (apologies if this is a bit long or not quite what you wanted). It chiefly focuses on Type 1 but will also apply to Type 2 diabetes.

All the best

Dillinger

1. The Logic of a Low Carbohydrate Diet and Type 1 Diabetes

Type 1 diabetes is a chronic endocrine disease resulting in an absolute failure of the body to metabolise glucose. It cannot make sense to treat the condition on the basis of metabolising high levels of glucose.

Non diabetic people have a very limited spectrum of blood sugar ranges with corresponding HbA1C’s of 3.5-5.5%.

The ideal position for a diabetic must be to match non diabetic blood glucose profiles provided that in doing so they are not put under risk of serious problems such as severe or regular hypos.

This can best be achieved by eating a very reduced amount of carbohydrate and reducing your insulin levels. This strategy greatly removes the chances of hypos and means non diabetic blood sugar levels can be achieved.

2. The Lack of Evidence of Adverse Medical Effects from a Low Carbohydrate Diet

The Cochrane review (which collated data from 11 randomised trials in 402 patients), confirms a shift in the evidence in recent years, with a number of recent studies suggesting a low-carb diet could offer long-term benefits to diabetics. These benefits include sustained weight loss with no significant effect on glycaemia or lipid levels.

The Cochrane review shows that patients on a diet of foods with a low glycaemic index had an HbA1c level (average blood glucose level) 0.5 per cent lower than controls. There were also significantly fewer episodes of hypoglycaemia in patients on a low-GI diet, with a reduction of 0.8 episodes per patient per month achieved in one trial.


3. The Difference Between Ketosis and Ketoacidosis

Ketosis is not the same as Ketoacidosis and is a normal metabolic response to low carbohydrate content in the diet and/or fasting where insulin is present. It occurs at a mild level with insulin present at low or non diabetic insulin levels.

Ketoacidosis is a type of metabolic acidosis which is caused by high concentrations of ketone bodies formed by the breakdown of fatty acids and the deamination of amino acids. The two common ketones produced are acetoacetic acid and β-hydroxybutyrate.

Ketoacidosis is an extreme and uncontrolled form of ketosis. In ketoacidosis, the liver breaks down fat and proteins in response to a perceived need for respiratory substrate (i.e. where no insulin is present to metabolise glucose even though high levels of glucose are present) causing such a severe accumulation of keto acids that the pH of the blood is substantially decreased.

Insulin inhibits ketosis and therefore a diabetic on a low carbohydrate diet (with an appropriate insulin regime) will not develop ketoacidosis but will merely display trace or low levels of ketones produced via normal metabolic ketosis.

On a low carbohydrate diet we aim to achieve low level ketosis and there are no studies to suggest that ketosis has any detrimental effect on liver function or other negative health implications.

4. The mechanics of Triglyceride Formation and Reduction

Triglycerides are so called because they are composed of three fatty acids attached to a single glycerol molecule.

Triglycerides are the key component of LDL (low density lipids) in the blood. The ratio of LDL to HDL (high density lipids) is a key indicator of cardiovascular risk (Source: Circulation (1997;96:2520-2525) Gotto AM Jr. Triglyceride: the forgotten risk factor. Circulation 1998;97(11):1027-8).

Some triglycerides in our bodies come from the fat in our diet, but the majority are manufactured in the liver from fatty acids and glycerol. The glycerol part is a by-product glycerol phosphate and the use of glucose in cellular metabolism so that the more glucose in the bloodstream, the greater the production of triglycerides. (Source: Ref. - Krauss, R. M. 2005. “Dietary and Genetic Probes of Atherogenic Dyslipidemia.” Arteriosclerosis, Thrombosis, and Vascular Biology. Nov.;25(11):2265-72)

As one might expect, triglyceride levels rise significantly following the consumption of large quantities of carbohydrates, not dietary fat and this link between glucose and triglyceride levels has been clearly demonstrated in clinical studies. (Source : Ostos MA, Recalde D, Baroukh N, Callejo A, Rouis M, Castro G, et al. Fructose intake increases hyperlipidemia and modifies apolipoprotein expression in apolipoprotein AI-CIII-AIV transgenic mice. J Nutr 2002;132(5):918-23).

The easiest way therefore to reduce triglycerides and improve the LDL/HDL ratio is to reduce the carbohydrate content of our diets rather than reduce the fat/protein content.


5. The Benefits of Having as Little Insulin As Possible

Insulin is an anabolic hormone which has many metabolic effects besides simply lowering blood sugar. It is the principal regulator of dietary metabolism such that its serum levels largely determine whether fuel is stored or burned. Elevated insulin levels effectively displace fatty acid metabolism in the Krebs cycle and preferentially burn glucose while storing excess as triglycerides. High levels of insulin will mean that fat is not only stored but is specifically not metabolised. Weight gain results.

Recent evidence supports the role of insulin and IGF-1 (insulin like growth factor) as important growth factors, acting through the tyrosine kinase growth factor cascade in enhancing tumor cell proliferation. [Source: Integr Cancer Ther. 2003 Dec;2(4):315-29.] This means that whilst elevated insulin levels are not shown to increase the risk of cancer they will enable cancers to proliferate.

Chronic activation of the sympathetic nervous system may be a pathogenetic mechanism by which hyperinsulinemia induces cardiovascular damage in insulin-resistant NIDDM patients. [Source: Effects of insulin on vascular tone and sympathetic nervous system in NIDDM. C J Tack, P Smits, J J Willemsen, J W Lenders, T Thien and J A Lutterman]

Individuals with abnormal glucose and insulin metabolism have a higher incidence of hypertension, and recent interest has focused on the fact that patients with untreated essential hypertension have higher than normal plasma insulin concentrations, are resistant to insulin-stimulated glucose uptake and often have accompanying lipid disorders.
[Source: American Journal of Nephrology Vol. 16, No. 3, 1996]


6. A Response To the Purported Implications of the Accord Study

The ACCORD study is a large U.S clinical study of adults with established type 2 diabetes who are at especially high risk of cardiovascular disease.

Three treatment approaches were studied: (i) intensive lowering of blood sugar levels compared to a more standard blood sugar treatment;(ii) intensive lowering of blood pressure compared to standard blood pressure treatment; and (iii) treatment of blood lipids by a fibrate plus a statin compared to a statin alone.

Note, that the intensive lowering of blood sugars was not done by a low carbohydrate diet but was done by increased medication. Participants in the intensive group were more likely to be on combinations of drugs than participants in the standard group. For example, 52% of participants in the intensive strategy group were on three oral medications as well as insulin, compared to 16% of those in the standard group.

In its regular review of the available study data, the ACCORD DSMB noticed an unexpected increase in total deaths from any cause among participants who had been randomly assigned to the intensive blood sugar strategy group compared to those assigned to the standard blood sugar strategy group.

On the whole, the death rates in both blood sugar strategy groups were lower than those seen in similar populations. That is, although the death rate was higher in the intensive treatment group than the standard group, it was still lower than death rates reported in other studies of type 2 diabetes.

The ACCORD participant treatment is scheduled to end in 2009, and researchers plan to report the final results in 2010.

[Source :U.S Department of Health & Human Services, National Heart Lung and Blood Institute web site - http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/prof/he ... .htm#trial].

To sum up then; it is an ongoing type 2 study, the increased mortality is related not to tighter control but to the manner in which the tighter control was attempted (i.e. high medication), the intensive blood sugar strategy group still had a better mortality rate than non-control type 2 diabetics.

Therefore, this is not applicable to type 1 diabetics on a low carbohydrate diet and certainly should not be used to equate tight diabetic control with increased CVD risk.

7. Why tight control is essential, and the NICE guidelines are too high

NICE currently suggest that blood glucose control should be optimised towards attaining HbA1c targets for prevention of microvascular disease of less than 7.5% and in those at increased risk of arterial disease of levels less than or equal to 6.5% as appropriate [ Source: NICE AND DIABETES: A summary of relevant guidelines July 2006 ]

However, for every percentage point drop in HbA1c blood test results (from 8.0 percent to 7.0 percent, for example), the risk of diabetic eye, nerve, and kidney disease is reduced by 40 percent. Lowering blood sugar reduces these microvascular complications in both type 1 and type 2 diabetes.

Intensive blood sugar control in people with type 1 diabetes (average HbA1c of 7.4%) reduces the risk of any CVD event by 42 percent and the risk of heart attack, stroke, or death from CVD by 57 percent. [Source: DCCT/EDIC, reported in December 22, 2005, issue of the New England Journal of Medicine.]

Furthermore a recent study conducted at Cambridge University analysing results from 33,000 Type 2 diabetics found getting HbA1c levels closer to the level of non diabetics could cut the risk of heart attacks by 17%.

[ Source: BBC News website Friday 22nd May 2009]
 
Great collection od information.
Please may I add one more,
I can't pput my hand on the reference for this, but google might

It has been found that non-diabetics with Hb A1cs at the upper end of the "normal" range have an increased risk of suffering a cardiovascular event or circulatory problem( which includes kidney disease)
 
Hi anticarb,

I think someone's been brainwashed, but I don't think it's you. :D

They're not diabetic, you are. You've found a diet that does the job. Happy days. 8)
 
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