Frowned at by Nurse when I mentioned LCHF

[SunnyExpat]

Interestingly, the french paradox reinforces the classic cholesterol theories with regard to LDL, HDL, etc.

(It was also an excellent boost to the flagging wine export market at the time)

 

[fene48]

Hi fend48, thank you for providing a countervailing view. I would say that just because some people hold strong opinions that may not be currently mainstream, does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that they are "conspiracy theorists".

I am aware of highly credible scientists, some in the organisations you in fact list who would hold a strong contention that there is no link between saturated fat and CVD/CHD.

By way of at least trying to move us away from the foothills of conspiracy, let me provide you with a smattering of independent peer reviewed studies. There are over 150 of these, many of them RCTs, some in the range of the largest ever undertaken and amounting to In excess of 100,000 participants.

Here goes with my first few:

Siri-Tarino, P.W., et al., Meta-analysis of prospective cohort studies Eva,hating the association of saturated fat with cardiovascular disease. Am H Clin Nutr, 2010, 81(3): p535-46

Yamagishi, K, et al., Dietary intake of saturated fatty acids and mortality from cardiovascular disease in Japanese: the Japan Collaborative Cohort Study for Evaluation of Cancer Risk (JACC) Study. Am J Clin Nutr, 2010. 92(4): p759-65

Jacobsen, M.U., et al., Major types of dietary fat and risk of coronary heart disease: a pooled analysis of 11 cohort studies. am J C,in Nutr, 102099.89(5): p.1425-32

Foray the, C.E, et al., Limited effect of dietary saturated fat on plasma saturated fat in the context of a low carbohydrate diet. Lipids, 2010. 45(10): p 947-62

Howard, B.V., et al., Low-fat dietary pattern and risk of cardiovascular disease: the Women's Health Initiative Randomized Controlled Modification Trial. JAMA, 2006. 295(6): p, 655-66

McClellan, W. S. An E.F. Dubois, Clinical Calorimetry. XLV: Prolonged Meat Diets with a Study of Kidney Function and Ketosis. The journal of Biological Chemistry.

Phinney, S,D., J. A. Wortman...oolican grease: a unique marine lipid and dietary staple of the North Pacific Coast. Lipids, 2009. 44(1), p.47-51

The Lipid Research Clinics Coronary Primary Prevention Trial Results. I. Reduction in incidence of coronary heart disease. JAMA, 1984. 251 (3): p351-64

Taub, G. Good Calories, Bad Calories: Fats, Carbs, and the Controversial Science of Duet and Health. 2098: Anchor

Even if we still remain at opposite ends, having sifted the evidence, I nevertheless appreciate your contribution

Warmly,

Kevin


Sent from my iPad using DCUK Forum mobile app

Hi Kevin
I like your style mate! Sorry if I gave the wrong impression - I was trying to ask 'do you think there is a conspiracy there'.
Anyway, you have 'gotten me to think' in a very diplomatic way. It would be an interesting discussion with you.
One thing you clarified for me is that I am on the other end of the spectrum to a lot of people on this forum. I think they have Buckley's chance of changing my mind and possibly the other way around as well. I am weded to mainstream science and likely to stay that way as it helped me to achieve results I thought were impossible.
So thanks again for putting me in my box (in a very nice way). I will stop preaching and do the things that work for me and let other people do their thing.
With sincerest regard
Fene48
.

 

[SunnyExpat]

Hi Kevin
I like your style mate! Sorry if I gave the wrong impression - I was trying to ask 'do you think there is a conspiracy there'.
Anyway, you have 'gotten me to think' in a very diplomatic way. It would be an interesting discussion with you.
One thing you clarified for me is that I am on the other end of the spectrum to a lot of people on this forum. I think they have Buckley's chance of changing my mind and possibly the other way around as well. I am weded to mainstream science and likely to stay that way as it helped me to achieve results I thought were impossible.
So thanks again for putting me in my box (in a very nice way). I will stop preaching and do the things that work for me and let other people do their thing.
With sincerest regard
Fene48
.

Some interesting comments, keep posting, not everyone on this forum has the same views, many are in the middle, and use all the options open to them, they just tend not to post as much about it.

 

[KevinPotts]

Hi Kevin
I like your style mate! Sorry if I gave the wrong impression - I was trying to ask 'do you think there is a conspiracy there'.
Anyway, you have 'gotten me to think' in a very diplomatic way. It would be an interesting discussion with you.
One thing you clarified for me is that I am on the other end of the spectrum to a lot of people on this forum. I think they have Buckley's chance of changing my mind and possibly the other way around as well. I am weded to mainstream science and likely to stay that way as it helped me to achieve results I thought were impossible.
So thanks again for putting me in my box (in a very nice way). I will stop preaching and do the things that work for me and let other people do their thing.
With sincerest regard
Fene48
.

I appreciate your gracious response and just a single voice on this area. I might very well be in the minority...only time will tell. Warmly, Kevin


Sent from my iPad using DCUK Forum mobile app

 

[Dr__Mesh]

Mahesh, I appreciate you taking the time to share your qualified opinions and thoughts on the matter.

One thing that stood out to me was your mention of people with type 2 diabetes (not on a sulfonylurea or insulin) not needing to test frequently as their risk of hypos is extremely low. While I would agree with that, I would argue that there is a different reason that testing is important.

While the glycemic index is a general guideline for how your blood sugar will respond to food, it's certainly not a rule. Watermelon is a perfect example of a high GI food that has a very low glycemic load largely due to the high water content. Plus, you have to also consider that each person will respond differently to different types of foods.

Testing blood sugar effectively allows people to not only better understand how GI/GL impacts their blood sugar, but it also allows them to customize those indexes by quantifying how high their blood sugar spikes after a particular meal.

While an a1c test would effectively measure their progress on a macro level, it would fail at helping people realize what events throughout a typical day contribute to hyperglycemia and what events contribute to normal blood glucose levels.

Hi how are you!

So, I held a free health awareness day with friends and colleagues for our local community the other day. We provided BP checks, diabetes risk assessment (including BMI and waist checks), doctor's consults, dental checks, eye checks, presentations

I had also done my homework on glycaemic load, low carb foods etc, and shared this with the people ;-)
They were all so grateful for the advice

Thank you and everyone else for raising my awareness on such things

 

[KevinPotts]

Hi Dr Mesh, wow that is truly wonderful... What a great start and what a catalyst you are, hopefully also for lots of other health professionals. So my question, as you have clearly seen something ignited within you, is what next, how do you keep momentum building and get the train out of the station picking up speed. Can you, in your area, be the catalyst that triggers a Tipping Point? Well done


Sent from my iPad using DCUK Forum mobile app

 

[Mars1946]

this seems to be a very common thing, medical practitioners frowning up the thought that someone might want to control their diabetes with diet and not meds!!

I've only been diagnosed for a few weeks now but have been reading, watching videos etc regarding diets.

Upon diagnosis i was put on Glipizide as my BG was resting at about 24, A week after that they put me on Metaformmin as well as the Glipizide. I have been following quite a strict LCHF diet, and as a result gave myself a Hypo the other day after taking my glipizide. So on one hand my diet is doing what it should and bringing my sugars down, and yet the nurses are telling me to change my diet back and eat more carbs but stay on medication!! I am supposed to be on metaformman twice a day, and i'm very lazy with it, maybe 1 a day, sometimes none. Since I am type 2 I never received a monitor so I purchased a Codefree last week, it got delivered 2 days ago (and sods law, they gave me a monitor today as I mentioned the hypo, so i have 2 now ) so i have been checking frequently, and i seem to fluctuate between 6 and 9 throughout the day.

But back on topic, its so frustrating that I'm doing what steps I feel are the right ones and i'm being told things from professionals that I think is outdated info and pushed to be on meds for ever. I know that many many diabetics are on meds for ever, but many have been able to get really good control over their BG, and I think I stand a good chance at doing this. Even the big pile of "New to diabetes" bumpf they gave me was dated 2009....

my rant is over, just needed to vent a little!!!

Hi

You write: " feel are the right ones and i'm being told things from professionals that I think is outdated info and pushed to be on meds for ever"
You claim that the medical science is outdated, but the commercial advertising are up to date.
You are in the right rout. Go on and see the consequences of that.

 

[Li4m79]

Hi

You write: " feel are the right ones and i'm being told things from professionals that I think is outdated info and pushed to be on meds for ever"
You claim that the medical science is outdated, but the commercial advertising are up to date.
You are in the right rout. Go on and see the consequences of that.

After reading articles and watching videos by other professionals as well as testimonials from people in this forum and others, I do feel some of the info I have been given is outdated. Especially where diet is concerned. And I was told to keep on my meds which resulted in a hypo. Also when I read of some DR's saying one thing and other DR's saying another thing then yes it is apparent that outdated info is circulating..

Sent from my SM-G925F using Diabetes.co.uk Forum mobile app

 

[Dr__Mesh]

Hi Dr Mesh, wow that is truly wonderful... What a great start and what a catalyst you are, hopefully also for lots of other health professionals. So my question, as you have clearly seen something ignited within you, is what next, how do you keep momentum building and get the train out of the station picking up speed. Can you, in your area, be the catalyst that triggers a Tipping Point? Well done


Sent from my iPad using DCUK Forum mobile app

Please, don't address me as Dr, call me by my first name, Mahesh (or Mesh which is my nickname ha ha)

Unfortunately, diabetes is a major problem in our area. Coupled with a multi-ethnic population that doesn't necessarily have English as their first language, this can make things very challenging.
I think it's about understanding what we already have, and whether it is meeting the needs of the population, and indeed whether it is best practice. After that, necessary changes can be proposed. An example: we have a lot of Nepalese people in our local community, and many are diabetic. Now, our local diabetes dietary service does not provide sessions in Nepalese (They provide sessions in English or Punjabi), so right off the bat, a lot of our population are not receiving the best possible holistic approach to their diabetes. So this is going to be raised as an area for improvement.
I shall continue to do my work with local patients and at the health awareness clinics

 

[KevinPotts]

Hi Mesh, excellent response thinking through the fundamental challenges. Great to hear. Please keep us informed as we your supporters applaud your efforts.


Sent from my iPad using DCUK Forum mobile app

 

[Dr__Mesh]

Hi Mesh, excellent response thinking through the fundamental challenges. Great to hear. Please keep us informed as we your supporters applaud your efforts.


Sent from my iPad using DCUK Forum mobile app

Thank you sir for your very kind words and support

 

[RexTiberius]

Perhaps the low BG level reported in LCHF lifestyle is not responding so much to the amount of fat as the amount of carbs consumed, since it is commonly known that BG levels correlate causally with the amount of carb intake. It would be interesting if those who have already achieved their BG targets due their adopting a LCHF lifestyle go one step further to see if it is really the HF that is also causing the low and stable BF.

They can test their claims out by varying the actual amount of fats consumed, while keeping other variables like carbs equal or unchanged. If the BG level remains fairly constant despite the changes in the amount of fats consumed (from say near-zero to oodles of it), then a LC monocausal mechanism can be claimed, and that it has little or no relationship with HF nor LF. Let's not forget there's also a third variable - the amount of protein consumed. Without factoring in the protein contribution (a variable too), all the anecdotal claims made wrt the effects of consumed fats and carbs remain questionable.

Factoring in the protein variable (once the the other two variables have been tested and determined) will of course make the whole thing even more interesting, An insightful start can be made if one takes time to peer into or examine the composition of mother's milk wrt the amount of carb, fat and protein it contains:

According to NBCI, mature human milk contains

Carb: 6.9% -- 7.2% (average: 7.05%)
Fat: 3.0% -- 5.0% (average: 4.0%)
Protein: 0.8% -- 0.9% (average: 0.85%)

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/392766

The above is not to naively assume that an infant's need, in absolute percentages terms, matches that of an adult. It is rather the ratio of carb to fat to protein that should be focus point. Does the ratio approximate that of an adult in good health?

Anyway, even just looking at the human milk composition alone, one can easily see that carb comes out tops, nearly twice that of fat in absolute terms. Perhaps this LC status helps to explain why some people who had adopted a Paleo lifestyle for years, passionately espousing its LC tenet, eventually gave up and complained of unexpected health issues, esp re signs of aging: "I felt good at first but lousy and depressed as time went by. In the end, my face became dry and saggy"!!

And yes, there is an empirical science behind healthy carb consumption. For carbs trigger the happy hormone Serotonin, and everyone's brain has inherent receptors for that. It seems we have been wired by Nature to access and experience this happy hormone... and who doesn't want to be happy?

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

Perhaps the low BG level reported in LCHF lifestyle is not responding so much to the amount of fat as the amount of carbs consumed, since it is commonly known that BG levels correlate causally with the amount of carb intake. It would be interesting if those who have already achieved their BG targets due their adopting a LCHF lifestyle go one step further to see if it is really the HF that is also causing the low and stable BF.

They can test their claims out by varying the actual amount of fats consumed, while keeping other variables like carbs equal or unchanged. If the BG level remains fairly constant despite the changes in the amount of fats consumed (from say near-zero to oodles of it), then a LC monocausal mechanism can be claimed, and that it has little or no relationship with HF nor LF. Let's not forget there's also a third variable - the amount of protein consumed. Without factoring in the protein contribution (a variable too), all the anecdotal claims made wrt the effects of consumed fats and carbs remain questionable.

Factoring in the protein variable (once the the other two variables have been tested and determined) will of course make the whole thing even more interesting, An insightful start can be made if one takes time to peer into or examine the composition of mother's milk wrt the amount of carb, fat and protein it contains:

According to NBCI, mature human milk contains

Carb: 6.9% -- 7.2% (average: 7.05%)
Fat: 3.0% -- 5.0% (average: 4.0%)
Protein: 0.8% -- 0.9% (average: 0.85%)

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/392766

The above is not to naively assume that an infant's need, in absolute percentages terms, matches that of an adult. It is rather the ratio of carb to fat to protein that should be focus point. Does the ratio approximate that of an adult in good health?

Anyway, even just looking at the human milk composition alone, one can easily see that carb comes out tops, nearly twice that of fat in absolute terms. Perhaps this LC status helps to explain why some people who had adopted a Paleo lifestyle for years, passionately espousing its LC tenet, eventually gave up and complained of unexpected health issues, esp re signs of aging: "I felt good at first but lousy and depressed as time went by. In the end, my face became dry and saggy"!!

And yes, there is an empirical science behind healthy carb consumption. For carbs trigger the happy hormone Serotonin, and everyone's brain has inherent receptors for that. It seems we have been wired by Nature to access and experience this happy hormone... and who doesn't want to be happy?

Nobody claims that the high fat part of LCHF is what leads to normalized blood glucose levels. And you certainly don't need carbs to be happy.

 

[Jaylee]

And yes, there is an empirical science behind healthy carb consumption. For carbs trigger the happy hormone Serotonin, and everyone's brain has inherent receptors for that. It seems we have been wired by Nature to access and experience this happy hormone... and who doesn't want to be happy?

UV has the same effect with serotonin. Probably goes waaaaaaay back to the primordial soup days...

 

[KevinPotts]

I am pretty convinced ( admittedly only 6 weeks of wide reading and research) that Carbs are for all practical purposes not vital, certainly not the traditional macronutrient label we have given them first long.


Sent from my iPad using DCUK Forum mobile app

 

[RexTiberius]

UV has the same effect with serotonin. Probably goes waaaaaaay back to the primordial soup days...

Thanks, I'd rather eat my soured rye bread and coconut jam. Those who want to dine on the serotonin-drenched sunbeams, pls go ahead and "eat" them to your heart's content.

Oh, my Paleo friends have just whispered into my ears that waaaaaaay back then, the folks had to spend a whole day or more just hunting and gathering, no sunbeam to hunt or gather. Since when was this sunbeam consumption featured on their Paleo menu???

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

Thanks, I'd rather eat my soured rye bread and coconut jam. Those who want to dine on the serotonin-drenched sunbeams, pls go ahead and "eat" them to your heart's content.

Oh, my Paleo friends have just whispered into my ears that waaaaaaay back then, the folks had to spend a whole day or more just hunting and gathering, no sunbeam to hunt or gather. Since when was this sunbeam consumption featured on their Paleo menu???

Sun exposure has always been on the paleo menu.

 

[Jaylee]

Thanks, I'd rather eat my soured rye bread and coconut jam. Those who want to dine on the serotonin-drenched sunbeams, pls go ahead and "eat" them to your heart's content.

Oh, my Paleo friends have just whispered into my ears that waaaaaaay back then, the folks had to spend a whole day or more just hunting and gathering, no sunbeam to hunt or gather. Since when was this sunbeam consumption featured on their Paleo menu???

I don't think anyone was hunter gathering anything on this planet 3.8 billion'ish years ago..
Are you suggesting we had no sunlight in "da olden days" then...?

 

[Li4m79]

My understanding with the HF part of LCHF , was the fat was to be used as energy by your body in the absence of carbs.. And the low carb is what is lowering blood sugars...

Sent from my SM-G925F using Diabetes.co.uk Forum mobile app

 

[Jaylee]

My understanding with the HF part of LCHF , was the fat was to be used as energy by your body in the absence of carbs.. And the low carb is what is lowering blood sugars...

Sent from my SM-G925F using Diabetes.co.uk Forum mobile app

Fair comment. From what I've gleaned? Hi fat is actually normal intake which balance cholesterol, filling & seems further hunger pangs & slows any carb/starch conversion to sugars levelling out on the bloods. The low carb takes the strain off a weak pancreas & all the above with regards to insulin resistance.. (Someone please correct me if I'm out of order.?)
As a T1 with a "dead" pancreas. This means less insulin (bolusing for pizza is a cow.) = smoother blood profiles & less manic highs & drops..
Needless to say. I can see the logic in LCHF until they suss out a "smart insulin"..