Gary Taubes Diabetes treatment - diet essay

[ianf0ster]

Published by Time and adapted from Gary Taubes new book Rethinking Diabetes: What science reveals about Diet, Insulin and Successful Treatments.

The Paradox of How We Treat Diabetes

Even as new treatments become available for diabetes, the disease continues to spread. That's because we're not focused on root solutions.

time.com

 

[MrsA2]

@HairySmurf
You'll find this interesting.
Gary Taubes has a long history of journalistic research into diabetes and low carb

 

[HairySmurf]

@HairySmurf
You'll find this interesting.
Gary Taubes has a long history of journalistic research into diabetes and low carb

Excellent recommendation, thank you. It was very informative.

Part of my hesitancy around low carb is associated with what I know about doctors. I have two in my extended family, an aunt who's a retired consultant, and a first cousin who's a GP. Another aunt is married to a retired GP. I also know a few socially. I've seen doctors that I found to be quite stupid, ignorant of basic general knowledge outside their field, and I've seen doctors that I found to be very intelligent, knowledgeable and dedicated, forever learning.

I know my GP is a pretty good one. For example, a couple of years ago when I asked about vaping he said something like 'probably not entirely healthy but definitely better than smoking. If it helps you stay off cigarettes, do it'. When I last saw him he made a point of mentioning recent research into vaping and heart health. I didn't believe him so I looked it up. Apparently, inhaling any fine particles that cause you to cough causes some inflammation in the lungs, and that inflammation might have similar effects on heart health to light smoking. He knew that and mentioned it because he reads up on these things constantly, forever learning.

I find it hard to reconcile that with the notion that everything doctors say about diabetes is wrong, but I'll keep an open mind.

 

[Lupf]

There is an article in the guardian about the book
Gary Taubes - Rethinking Diabetes

Unlocking the truth about diabetes: âThe science has been pretty awfulâ

More than 400m people around the world have diabetes, and many control the condition using insulin. But science writer Gary Taubes believes it’s this very treatment that is behind the current epidemic. Does his controversial case for a diet-based alternative to medicine have any bite?

www.theguardian.com

The book is available, likely in your favourite bookshop, here are two links (just for info)

Rethinking Diabetes by Gary Taubes | Waterstones

Buy Rethinking Diabetes by Gary Taubes from Waterstones today! Click and Collect from your local Waterstones or get FREE UK delivery on orders over £25.

www.waterstones.com

Amazon.co.uk

 

[Beating-My-Betes]

Excellent recommendation, thank you. It was very informative.

I'd be surprised if Taubes comes anywere close to meeting your standards when it comes to confirmation bias, scientific integrity etc.

Be wary!

 

[IncogKeto]

I'd be surprised if Taubes comes anywere close to meeting your standards when it comes to confirmation bias, scientific integrity etc.

Be wary!

Would you like to share your justification for questioning Gary Taubes' integrity?

 

[Beating-My-Betes]

Would you like to share your justification for questioning Gary Taubes' integrity?

There was the great Aragon/Taubes spectacle from about 8 years ago. This was before NuSI, and at a time when Taubes was very confident it would demonstrate his ideas to be true. But Alan asked him whether if it turned out that the NuSI initiative falsified his Carb-Insulin-Model he would change his position. Gary said no.

This is the epitome of bad/anti-science, which is bad enough; worse, considering how prone to accusing others of the same (His Anti Keys misinformation still forms the backbone of much of the current low-carb rhetoric).

Here's a pretty good summation of the above incident, along with other stuff:

Science, Stories, and Side-Stepping: The Stephan Guyenet vs. Gary Taubes Debate

If you want to know the difference between storytelling and debating, we analyze those very differences here.

biolayne.com

For a much deeper dive into his shenanigans, there's the 16 part PlantPositive series (under 'NUTRITION PAST AND FUTURE'). Here's a Youtube playlist:

This series might be a tough watch. PlantPositive makes no effort to disguise his anti-low-carb bias, and sometimes makes snarky jabs. You may also find reference to the diet-heart model reason to stop watching. But his work is very well-referenced and should give an idea about what Taubes regards as good science (Presumably, given how quick he is to point out the supposed 'bad' stuff).

 

[ianf0ster]

............................................................................

I find it hard to reconcile that with the notion that everything doctors say about diabetes is wrong, but I'll keep an open mind.

What makes you think all doctors discourage use of Low Carb?
A Low Carb way of eating for controlling T2 diabetes or remission is endorsed by the NHS. Just take a look at the Low Carb program off the home page of this site (the commercial bit). Depending upon your GP Practice, you can even get the Low Carb program on prescription.

Dr David Unwin's GP practice in Southport, England encourages Low Carb for both Type 2 and now even some Type 1 patients. He has published 2 studies on Low Carb for diabetes and another one busting the myth that low carb is bad for the kidneys - none of his 100 low carb patient showed any loss of kidney function (over 5 yrs I think) despite the fact that kidney function naturally worsens with age.
The Freshwell GP surgery in Essex also has a low carb app and resource.
Diabetes.org.uk also accept low carb, though reluctantly since they sponsor the DIRECT studies which extoll a very low calorie diet (800caloroes per day).

The American Diabetes Association also reluctantly support low carb, their ex-EO Tracy Brown used low carb for her T2 remission. She is ex-CEO because she went public with that fact - note like most diabetes charities, the ADA is mainly supported by funds from Pharma and food manufacturers.

 

[lovinglife]

Agree with you @ianf0ster, I have only been in 2 GP surgeries in my lifetime, the first one when I was diagnosed was very supportive of low carb. When I moved and had to join another surgery I was very coy about my keto lifestyle until I spoke to the nurse at my review, she knew all about keto and full supported it, in fact she said all her patients with the best results were low carb or keto, she said there was quite a few. Of course she also said it’s not for everyone and I do agree with her there too.

Also my brother who had 3 cardiac arrests whilst on holiday in Switzerland, (he died 3 times) he is under one of the top cardiologists in the country and his recommendation for my brother is 1 low carb meal a day and 2 low carb snacks. There are plenty of forward thinking HCP and it’s increasing

 

[Antje77]

Here another one with a doctor happy with my low carb approach. In my case it's my endocrinologist, being a T1, who complimented me in my record on my now excellent lipid levels eating LCHF.
When I was first diagnosed with diabetes my lipids were all out of whack, took a statin for about 2 months and changed my diet. At my next test my lipids were all in the optimal zone without statins, and have stayed there for the last 7 years.

As for my food choices, my endo is very much of the 'do what works for you' approach and never advised me to eat more carbs or less fat. Same for the practice nurse I saw for my diabetes during the first 2 years when I was thought to be a T2.

 

[zand]

I have been T2 over 12 years. For 11 of those years my surgery have advocated carbs with every meal and Eatwell guidelines.

During my most recent review, in December 2023, I was given a good low carb, higher fat leaflet. It advocated eating butter and fatty meats and lard and not using low fat alternatives. It was a breath of fresh air to finally have them approve the way of eating that I already knew worked for me. The leaflet even had a link to a keto site.

I'm sure they wouldn't have so dramatically changed policy if they didn't believe that this was a healthier way for T2s to eat.

 

[Outlier]

There is hope!

 

[Beating-My-Betes]

Would you like to share your justification for questioning Gary Taubes' integrity?

How're you getting on with the information?

 

[gb350]

I've just received my copy of Rethinking Diabetes by Gary Taubes this morning. I then came across this thread.
Having also read the piece that was published in Time magazine recently I decided to look into the guy. I purchased a copy of his 2010 book Why We Get Fat ( and what to do about it ) which I'm currently about half way through. At the very least he is expanding the Overton Window on the subject. The jury is still out for me, but purely from observational studies it would seem fairly obvious that the calories in/calories out or gluttony and sloth mantra as he refers to it, is not working.
I think he has a point when he makes the argument about the fat processing systems in our bodies being disrupted by something.
I've got a few theories of my own about what is causing this.
Top of the list is seed oils.
Having eliminated them from my diet completely ( not easy, as they are put into all manner of foodstuffs that you wouldn't expect ), I am a stone and a half lighter in under two years. I'm eating low carb but not no carb and can vouch that it works for me.
I am looking forward to reading his latest book. I may not agree with all of it but I'm grateful to him for putting alternative theories out there.

 

[Beating-My-Betes]

I've just received my copy of Rethinking Diabetes by Gary Taubes this morning. I then came across this thread.
Having also read the piece that was published in Time magazine recently I decided to look into the guy. I purchased a copy of his 2010 book Why We Get Fat ( and what to do about it ) which I'm currently about half way through. At the very least he is expanding the Overton Window on the subject. The jury is still out for me, but purely from observational studies it would seem fairly obvious that the calories in/calories out or gluttony and sloth mantra as he refers to it, is not working.
I think he has a point when he makes the argument about the fat processing systems in our bodies being disrupted by something.
I've got a few theories of my own about what is causing this.
Top of the list is seed oils.
Having eliminated them from my diet completely ( not easy, as they are put into all manner of foodstuffs that you wouldn't expect ), I am a stone and a half lighter in under two years. I'm eating low carb but not no carb and can vouch that it works for me.
I am looking forward to reading his latest book. I may not agree with all of it but I'm grateful to him for putting alternative theories out there.

I understand people wanting to avoid seed oils due to the manufacturing process. But they don't cause obesity any more than any other type of fat. If you lost weight, it was due to being in caloric energy-deficit

 

[gb350]

I understand people wanting to avoid seed oils due to the manufacturing process. But they don't cause obesity any more than any other type of fat. If you lost weight, it was due to being in caloric energy-deficit

So the massive omega 6 / omega 3 imbalance in seed oils doesn't bother you?
Proven to lead to inflammation, oxidative stress, endothelial dysfunction and atherosclerosis.
I don't know if cutting them out helps to reduce obesity, any more than you know that consuming them doesn't cause obesity.
You also have no idea of what I eat or what I do.
What does appear obvious is that you are wedded to the calories in/calories out mantra.
I prefer to keep an open mind.

 

[HairySmurf]

So the massive omega 6 / omega 3 imbalance in seed oils doesn't bother you?
Proven to lead to inflammation, oxidative stress, endothelial dysfunction and atherosclerosis.
I don't know if cutting them out helps to reduce obesity, any more than you know that consuming them doesn't cause obesity.
You also have no idea of what I eat or what I do.
What does appear obvious is that you are wedded to the calories in/calories out mantra.
I prefer to keep an open mind.

On the 'inflammation, oxidative stress, endothelial dysfunction and atherosclerosis' thing I'd appreciate a few links to good info along these lines, if you have any handy. It's a topic I've become curious about.

On the calories in/calories out thing - everything we put in our mouths must be used to build new cells, burned as fuel, stored as fat or dumped by the body (in the toilet). Calories out is complex but not rocket science, it's secondary school biology. There's no calorie fairy that can make food vanish. This Mr. Taubes doesn't actually contradict that, does he?

 

[HSSS]

On the calories in/calories out thing - everything we put in our mouths must be used to build new cells, burned as fuel, stored as fat or dumped by the body (in the toilet). Calories out is complex but not rocket science, it's secondary school biology. There's no calorie fairy that can make food vanish. This Mr. Taubes doesn't actually contradict that, does he?

yes but how those calories end up varies depending on where they come from. If a subset of calories cannot be efficiently burned as fuel then it ends up stored instead. So we either have energy or excess weight. Very different outcomes from the same intake.

As a type 2 we are not good at burning glucose due to insulin resistance and we also are very good at storing fat due to high circulating insulin leaves. So we store fat easily when we eat carbohydrates (glucose). A metabolically health person burns the glucose better and isn’t so prone to storing fat so they don’t gain weight as easily. Same calories in different outcomes even if the same activity is done by both otherwise identical people.

 

[Beating-My-Betes]

So the massive omega 6 / omega 3 imbalance in seed oils doesn't bother you?

In the small amounts i eat it, and in the context of a very varied diet, no.

Proven to lead to inflammation, oxidative stress, endothelial dysfunction and atherosclerosis.

When oil (indeed any fat) has been heated to extreme temperatures, things start to go awry. If that same fat is re-used, as is likely the case in various eateries around the world the issues can get worse. But if you could show me some robust human outcome data that demonstrates any of the above from adding a home-made sunflower-seed vinaigrette to a salad, I'd much appreciate it.

Interesting you mention endothelial dysfunction as it's one of the cries of one of the (in)famous plant-based doctors. claims that this is the result of consuming even olive-oil. But tat's been debunked. Doubt he cares very much

I don't know if cutting them out helps to reduce obesity, any more than you know that consuming them doesn't cause obesity.

But I do know it doesn't cause obesity. If I didn't, I wouldn't make the claim

You also have no idea of what I eat or what I do.

But that's the beauty of it - i don't need to know. THe science is already there. I no more need to know what you ate to lose weight than I need to know which direction a coin woud go if it fell from your hand.

You could've lost the eight on a carnivore or keto diet, (I'm sure I don't need to give examples). You could've lost weight eating nothing but potatoes for a couple of months:

Man Eating Nothing But Potatoes for 2 Months

A potato commission director's stunt to eat only potatoes for two months reveals good and bad in its nutritional profile.

www.livescience.com

or a year:

This Man Ate Only Potatoes for One Year and Lost 117 Pounds

The diet helped Andrew Flinders Taylor lose 117 pounds.

www.menshealth.com

You could have done it on a diet that included cake (contains seed-oils, I believe) on a daily basis:

Twinkie diet helps nutrition professor lose 27 pounds

Twinkies. Nutty bars. Powdered donuts.

edition.cnn.com

or on McDonalds (definitely contains seed-oils):

A man is eating only McDonald's for 100 days to lose weight. Here's what a dietitian thinks

So far, Kevin Maginnis says he's "loving it!"

www.today.com

What does appear obvious is that you are wedded to the calories in/calories out mantra.
I prefer to keep an open mind.

Actually, in the part you literally quoted, I used a strike-through for the word caloric, deferring instead to use energy. Why? Because calories is a bit more of a nuanced discussion. It's not that it isn't generally a pretty good proxy for energy, but ultimately it is energy we're talking about. So, to the extent that calories pretty much aligns with energy, you'd be correct. But to make it easier, I'm wedded to the energy model, like I'm wedded ot the gravity model and the flat-earth model

We would never have made it through our evolution had we not been able to leverage fat gain in times of feast, and to eventually plunder those stores during famine.

 

[Beating-My-Betes]

On the calories in/calories out thing - everything we put in our mouths must be used to build new cells, burned as fuel, stored as fat or dumped by the body (in the toilet). Calories out is complex but not rocket science, it's secondary school biology. There's no calorie fairy that can make food vanish. This Mr. Taubes doesn't actually contradict that, does he?

Contradicting it is pretty much his raison d'être, and he's seemed quite happy to set science back to the dark ages in his quest

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