High ldl calcium plaque artries

[AloeSvea]

My understanding is the diet-heart disease hypothesis was based on very dodgey data (primarily the 7-country study), and after multiple studies trying to come up with the same conclusion, ie, that eating dairy products and dead critters causes this critter - us - to get hardened arteries and croak - could not do so, so has since been disproved.

So - never proved, since been disproved.

 

[Westley]

My understanding is the diet-heart disease hypothesis was based on very dodgey data (primarily the 7-country study), and after multiple studies trying to come up with the same conclusion, ie, that eating dairy products and dead critters causes this critter - us - to get hardened arteries and croak - could not do so, so has since been disproved.

So - never proved, since been disproved

While it's true that the old Ancel Keys 7 countries study had some flaws, it's very far from the only evidence we have linking LDL to heart disease and saturated fat to LDL.

For a more modern review have a look at this thoroughly referenced article:

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/CIR.0000000000000510

 

[KennyA]

For "had some flaws" - read "fudged the data".

See the link to the BMJ paper in post #11 above.

 

[Westley]

For "had some flaws" - read "fudged the data".

See the link to the BMJ paper in post #11 above.

Again, problems with one study from the 50s do not invalidate the huge amounts of better studies and high quality evidence since then.
Still denying the causal link between LDL and heart disease today is getting to be like denying the link between smoking and lung disease.

For neutral readers of this thread, do bear in mind that this site is run by a commercial entity with a literal vested interest in promoting low carb diets, and many of the mods working for them are active in these threads defending high fat diets and questioning mainstream consensus positions on heart disease risk.

It's interesting that if you look at other popular diabetes forums such as the well known charity org uk one, you won't find anywhere near this slant.

Also to clarify, I'm not anti low carb myself, or anti keto, or anti animal fat. Individual responses vary widely, and the trade offs with weight loss and BG control benefits might make sense for some for some periods.

There's also obviously a wide continuum of low carb diets, from the eggs and bacon fried in butter every day type, all the way to just reducing refined carbs like white bread, rice and pasta, while keeping things like beans, starchy vegetables, whole grains and fruit.

Dietary science is complicated, positions evolve and absolute certainty is rare.

However, discounting all the negatives and risks of low carb diets seems actively dangerous, particularly in the context of a public website providing information and guidance for a group already at much higher risk of heart disease.
If someone diabetic has high LDL and has found that a low carb high sat fat diet makes that LDL worse for them, then encouraging them to ignore consensus position on LDL risk and continue with the high fat doesn't look wise to me.

 

[Melgar]

@Westley Moderators of these forums are not paid by DCUK. They are unpaid elected forumites whose opinions are their own and whose moderation activities are guided by the forum rules - https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/community-ethos-forum-rules.50278/

 

[zand]

This site is a commercial entity.

The diabetes.org uk is funded by commercial entities, including food and drugs companies. I wouldn't expect them to endorse low carb high fat...they know which side their bread is buttered (sorry low-fat-manufactured spreaded )

 

[Westley]

@Westley Moderators of these forums are not paid by DCUK. They are unpaid elected forumites whose opinions are their own and whose moderation activities are guided by the forum rules - https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/community-ethos-forum-rules.50278/

Thank you for clarifying. I don't want to suggest anything nefarious, just that those working (even voluntarily and elected) for a company might naturally tend to include more of those at least somewhat aligned with some general positions of that company.

Certainly charities are also not immune from bias linked to donors, but they are regulated differently and must demonstrate that they provide public benefit, while private companies have no such requirement.

 

[Melgar]

Thank you for clarifying. I don't want to suggest anything nefarious, just that those working (even voluntarily and elected) for a company might naturally tend to include more of those at least somewhat aligned with some general positions of that company.

Certainly charities are also not immune from bias linked to donors, but they are regulated differently and must demonstrate that they provide public benefit, while private companies have no such requirement.

No doubt.
I take statins @Westley. They brought my cholesterol down to normal levels. My ApoB results are great. Sadly my Lp (a) results are very high, but that is genetic and from what I've read, nothing to do with diet.

 

[AloeSvea]

For "had some flaws" - read "fudged the data".

See the link to the BMJ paper in post #11 above.

Lol - totally agree. I was trying to be polite (I do try - this being an British based website.) What I have written, honestly, is that I erect a metaphorical dart board with Ancel Keys face on it, and aim , oh boy do I.

 

[AloeSvea]

While it's true that the old Ancel Keys 7 countries study had some flaws, it's very far from the only evidence we have linking LDL to heart disease and saturated fat to LDL.

For a more modern review have a look at this thoroughly referenced article:

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/CIR.0000000000000510

Well, we are a fascinating species indeed. Drinking soybean oil in fruit juice, as opposed to eating animal fats, for good heart health. (In article.)

Sunflower oil sounds so lovely! Until you see how it gets to be in the pretty bottles. The process to make those oils palatable has to be seen to be believed. That is the answer to human heart health? Really?

A friend of mine recently shared with me his vision of ancient to modern humans patiently sitting with a bowl and a pessle (excuse spelling, I can't be bothered looking it up), grinding away at sunflower and canola seeds to get oil for cooking (and adding to fruit juice for drinking - egads!), and spurning the dead animal critter bubbling away in a cauldron - fats and all. Please!

I just suggested he look on youtube to see how those oils are actually made. He was very upset with me. Maybe he had just read this paper.

No human sat with a bowl and pessle grinding away (for a very long time I would imagine!) in order to not eat the animal and fish fat that came with the meat and flesh they were eating.

I am a mere peasant. I have very basic thought processes. Anything that needs massive work in factories for us to want to eat it is to be under suspicion. For heart health - nothing beats moving our bodies, using our muscles and keeping fit. And eating soybean oil in fruit juice? Please!!!

 

[Magic Turtle]

I've been seeing data that some people on keto diets have CAC high calcium plaque and high cholesterol, so I'm wondering how does one do keto diet without causing more plaque buildup and cholesterol etc. If one already has this. Any suggestions

I am just a standard member with T2D. I am not aware of any links between ketosis and high calcium plaque and high cholesterol. The current theory going around is that Vitamin D with K2 helps drive calcium out of the arteries and into the bones. Ketosis was a regular part of our systems, in times when carbohydrate was scarce - eg bitter winters or even ice ages. So personally I am not fearing it at all as it is our modern diet that practically excludes it. If you go with the theory that we probably used to gain body fat during the Summer months then burn it off by virtue of ketosis each winter, this is probably close to the truth. I believe that intermittent fasting on low carb can replicate these conditions and help to clear your body of accumulated fats and cell damage. It takes a lot of effort and is not easy to do but it does work very effectively, especially for those with insulin resistance like myself. But of course this is not advice, just my beliefs. There are many suggestions and advice on the internet on how you could reduce plaque. I am not going to mention them but they are out there. I think that high on any list should be the avoidance of ultra processed food, fake margarine of any kind and processed seed oils in anything, stick to the seeds themselves. That is my maxim. I am constantly dreaming about ketosis as an ambition of mine.. So my advice is achieve ketosis through low carb, sensible saturated fats and intermittent fasting on a regular basis. Then watch for improved stats.

 

[zand]

I am just a standard member with T2D. I am not aware of any links between ketosis and high calcium plaque and high cholesterol. The current theory going around is that Vitamin D with K2 helps drive calcium out of the arteries and into the bones. Ketosis was a regular part of our systems, in times when carbohydrate was scarce - eg bitter winters or even ice ages. So personally I am not fearing it at all as it is our modern diet that practically excludes it. If you go with the theory that we probably used to gain body fat during the Summer months then burn it off by virtue of ketosis each winter, this is probably close to the truth. I believe that intermittent fasting on low carb can replicate these conditions and help to clear your body of accumulated fats and cell damage. It takes a lot of effort and is not easy to do but it does work very effectively, especially for those with insulin resistance like myself. But of course this is not advice, just my beliefs. There are many suggestions and advice on the internet on how you could reduce plaque. I am not going to mention them but they are out there. I think that high on any list should be the avoidance of ultra processed food, fake margarine of any kind and processed seed oils in anything, stick to the seeds themselves. That is my maxim. I am constantly dreaming about ketosis as an ambition of mine.. So my advice is achieve ketosis through low carb, sensible saturated fats and intermittent fasting on a regular basis. Then watch for improved stats.

Totally agree.