History of Diabetes, and Modern Trends

[Grateful]

Alpine strawberries are, I think, closer to the original and are inedible until fully ripe.

I read this article a few months ago. It is about Driscoll's, a huge California grower, and how they "reinvented" the strawberry:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/08/21/how-driscolls-reinvented-the-strawberry

 

[Guzzler]

It has been known among zoologists for a very long time that the great apes in the wild will gorge themselves on the fruits and berries available in season then go back to the diet diet of much lower carby food the rest of the year. That is why their intestines are so much larger than ours and their skeletal make up differs for this very reason. Dietary advice has changed for animals kept captive and it doesn't surprise me at all that this has happened.

 

[lucylocket61]

animal feed has also changed a lot in recent years, as has the fertilisers it is grown in.

I suspect short stalk wheat is also having unexpected and unanticipated affects on the gluten etc in modern wheat.

 

[lucylocket61]

has the ease and wider availability of testing uncovered a huge amount of type 2 which would previously have not been recognised?

 

[Grateful]

has the ease and wider availability of testing uncovered a huge amount of type 2 which would previously have not been recognised?

I did read somewhere, I forget where, that the T2D epidemic is partly the result of better detection.

Another biggie is life expectancy. A century or two ago, middle-aged people like me would have been killed by something else before ever developing T2D.

 

[Chook]

Alpine strawberries are, I think, closer to the original and are inedible until fully ripe.

Very true - absolutely horrible!

I did read somewhere, I forget where, that the T2D epidemic is partly the result of better detection.

Another biggie is life expectancy. A century or two ago, middle-aged people like me would have been killed by something else before ever developing T2D.

Not even that long ago...really. My Mother's family were very poor - both parents plus 8 kids plus mother's grandma and aunt in a two bedroom flat and grandpa supported all that lot working as a part time grave digger - they just never went to the doctors because they just couldn't afford it and then, after the introduction of the NHS, they had got in to the mindset of 'not bothering the doctor'. All lived until adulthood but most of them died before turning 50, many before turning 20 and cousins have told me that from symptoms described to them it is likely that some if not all had diabetes of one type or another. The few that didn't pop off early all died from smoking related illnesses.

 

[Guzzler]

I did read somewhere, I forget where, that the T2D epidemic is partly the result of better detection.

Another biggie is life expectancy. A century or two ago, middle-aged people like me would have been killed by something else before ever developing T2D.

You have cited the Ancient Greeks a few times. Did they ever describe, in terms of numbers, the people who developed what would be diagnosed today as T2? Did they mention anywhere the phrases 'Epidemic' or 'Pandemic'? The numbers are the crux of the problem, they knew a lot those ancient folk but modern diet wasn't one of their top studies.

 

[Biggles2]

Do they really believe this.. nothing to do with dietary changes.. does the Middle East permit HFCS perchance?
Why have these genetic risk factors lain dormant for centuries and are now suddenly rearing their head..?

Great points, @bulkbiker! There is a lot of new and exciting research in the field of epigenetics. This is the field of study into the various biological mechanisms that switch our genes on and off as we are exposed to certain triggers. So, yes it may be in our genes, but, in order to be expressed, the switch needs to be turned on, otherwise that particular genetic predisposition will remain dormant. The list of potential culprits is long: HFCS, processed foods, high carb diets over the past 40 or so years. And they are just the potential dietary culprits. Increased exposure to chemicals, such as fire retardants in furniture and clothing, and pollution may also trigger genetic changes. It is a fascinating discipline.

 

[Grateful]

You have cited the Ancient Greeks a few times. Did they ever describe, in terms of numbers, the people who developed what would be diagnosed today as T2? Did they mention anywhere the phrases 'Epidemic' or 'Pandemic'? The numbers are the crux of the problem, they knew a lot those ancient folk but modern diet wasn't one of their top studies.

I cannot claim any scholarship in this area. Most of my education on the history of diabetes comes from this Wikipedia article, which is excellent: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_diabetes.

It provides a lot of information indicating that diabetes was a known disease, a long time ago, in many parts of the world. It doesn't say much about what the prevalence was.

 

[Guzzler]

I cannot claim any scholarship in this area. Most of my education on the history of diabetes comes from this Wikipedia article, which is excellent: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_diabetes.

It provides a lot of information indicating that diabetes was a known disease, a long time ago, in many parts of the world. It doesn't say much about what the prevalence was.

My interest lies in the mediaeval (an interest I have had to put aside in favour of a slightly more pressing agenda!). In the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries they knew how to diagnose The Black Death, sometimes because the first symptom was often just plain death. They knew that human contact spread the disease and they tracked its progress. They also knew about The Sweating sickness (which, to this day, has medical historians baffled as to cause and to which the best guess is some kind of virus producing flu like symptoms).
This was clearly documented by the scholars of the time (Bless 'em) so my thinking is that had the ancient Greeks seen such an epidemic of Diabetes it would have been documented in the same fashion. My point is that knowledge of a condition does not always come with full knowledge of causes/triggers.

Edited to add.

I was surprised to learn a few years back that both types of plague are still recorded in the US to this day. Both are easily treatable with antibiotics but it was a little factoid I thought members might find interesting.

 

[Grateful]

Not even that long ago...really.

I had a good friend, about 15 years older than me. He was found dead at his home in the UK in his early 40s. I don't know all the details, but was told he "had diabetes but didn't know it" while others said it was pancreatic cancer. Presumably it was pancreatic cancer, with the diabetes being the known side-effect, but I never really got the straight story. He had always been overweight but I never thought of him as someone who was in bad health.

One thing that has changed, possibly for the worse, is that in some countries autopsies are now seldom performed. They used to be fairly routine when there was doubt as to cause of death (or even when there was no doubt?). My guess is that this factor reduces the diabetes statistics, since we already know that the disease can go undiagnosed for years when people are alive. Story here: https://www.npr.org/2012/02/05/146355717/fewer-autopsies-mean-crucial-info-goes-to-the-grave.

 

[HICHAM_T2]

In Cairo our doorman's name was Abdu. He was a rotund, canny peasant from Upper Egypt (he came from the region around Aswan). He ran various rackets from his tiny room in the building's foyer, a room that resembled a sort of bric-a-brac shop as he was always buying and selling electronic goods and furniture when tenants moved in or out. He sent all the money back to his huge family in Upper Egypt. I learned much of my Arabic from him, but have now forgotten almost all of it unfortunately.

If you want te return Arabic I can help

 

[Grateful]

If you want te return Arabic I can help

Thank you @hichamgsm. I have thought about it often in the past twenty years, since leaving the Middle East. A few years ago I donated all of my Arabic texbooks and books to the local library here after deciding I was "never going to have time" to get back to it. I would like to do it, but it is very difficult at the moment. As soon as I am ready I will let you know and we can "chat" in Arabic!

I used to listen to the BBC Arabic Service or watch cheesy old Egyptian movies, but stopped doing that a long time ago. It is a beautiful language.

 

[HICHAM_T2]

Thank you @hichamgsm. I have thought about it often in the past twenty years, since leaving the Middle East. A few years ago I donated all of my Arabic texbooks and books to the local library here after deciding I was "never going to have time" to get back to it. I would like to do it, but it is very difficult at the moment. As soon as I am ready I will let you know and we can "chat" in Arabic!

I used to listen to the BBC Arabic Service or watch cheesy old Egyptian movies, but stopped doing that a long time ago. It is a beautiful language.

This is kind of you sir, anyway, learning a language better than ignorance

 

[AloeSvea]

So what do you think @hichamgsm - about the connection between very high soft drinks rate in the middle east and very high T2 diabetes rate? Do you think Dr Lustig's connection is indeed correct? (It makes a lot of sense. But I am one of those people who thinks soft drinks should have warning labels on soft drinks - it would have helped me hugely.) (Those warning labels on tobacco/cigarette packets do a great job!)

 

[HICHAM_T2]

So what do you think @hichamgsm - about the connection between very high soft drinks rate in the middle east and very high T2 diabetes rate? Do you think Dr Lustig's connection is indeed correct? (It makes a lot of sense. But I am one of those people who thinks soft drinks should have warning labels on soft drinks - it would have helped me hugely.) (Those warning labels on tobacco/cigarette packets do a great job!)

Thank you for your question

In fact, like you, I do not know much about the Middle East because we are next to Europe, as you know

But I think that ignorance of food is ignorance and ignorance does to the owner what the enemy does to his enemies

It is no secret that eating a high-sugar drink will strain the pancreas

But here I remember something important
Our ancestors did not have to eat only bread tea in their meals today why they did not get diabetes

It should be noted here that tea is cooked with sugar

 

[HICHAM_T2]

I heard Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say: "No man fills a container worse than his stomach. A few morsels that keep his back upright are sufficient for him. If he has to, then he should keep one-third for food, one-third for drink and one-third for his breathing."

I think it's the bottom line

Said (Muhammad is the messenger of Allah
)
I am sorry that i posting religious articles here, please forgive me

Quran

Children of Adam! Take your adornment at every time of Prayer; and eat and drink without going to excesses. For Allah does not like those who go to excess. (31)

 

[AloeSvea]

No need to say sorry to me at least @hichamgsm - this is a global forum, and I understand you are speaking from your own heart and culture, which religion is part of, absolutely.

But my researching indicates T2D and insulin resistance is not about excess generally, but excess of fructose especially, and sucrose, which we are all getting way too much of in our diets for our livers to be able to function properly. Some of us worse than others. It's not an excess of liquid per se, but of liquid that has high levels of sugar in it that our bodies just cannot handle. Is the way I look at it. But you might have a point there, as it is possible to die from too much water, which is a worrying thought.

 

[HICHAM_T2]

No need to say sorry to me at least @hichamgsm - this is a global forum, and I understand you are speaking from your own heart and culture, which religion is part of, absolutely.

But my researching indicates T2D and insulin resistance is not about excess generally, but excess of fructose especially, and sucrose, which we are all getting way too much of in our diets for our livers to be able to function properly. Some of us worse than others. It's not an excess of liquid per se, but of liquid that has high levels of sugar in it that our bodies just cannot handle. Is the way I look at it. But you might have a point there, as it is possible to die from too much water, which is a worrying thought.

thanks for understanding This kindness of you
I want to say that I have always noticed that the body adapts to the high rate of diabetes, which is considered a non-disturbing degree

 

[AloeSvea]

I can't say it's non-disturbing in my own life @hichamgsm. Far from it! My own wee joke is I would be very healthy if it wasn't for my type two diabetes .