How long does it take for beta cells to regenerate

[bulkbiker]

that the beta cells can regenerate once the fat is gone

Depends if they are "dead" or just inefficient when covered by fat..

 

[Brunneria]

Yeah, my doctor threw out the "50%-80% of beta cell function in pancreas is lost by the time you are diabetic. You'll need to take low dose of meds now, and expect to increase over the years. Sounds like this may not be true, and that the beta cells can regenerate once the fat is gone if I understand right. I know I had fatty liver. Just got bloodwork done last week, and my liver enzymes have returned to normal. Wonder if pancreas takes similar path as liver?

Professor Taylor (of Newcastle Diet fame) mentioned (in one of his youtube presentations) that when we lose visceral fat, it goes faster from the liver than from the pancreas. Therefore, losing weight via his Newcastle Diet will result in rapid liver fat loss, and slower pancreatic fat loss. He also said that it takes the pancreas longer to recover from being fattified.

I am sorry, but I no longer have the link to that specific video, but from memory it was one of his progress reports on the second, longer term study he ran.

So basically, expect pancreatic recovery to be slower, less dramatic, and possibly less effective, than the liver recovery. The liver is reknowned for being astonishingly resilient and able to heal from dramatic levels of damage, given time and the correct treatment. Less so for the pancreas.

Hope that helps.

 

[alienskin]

But you are a type two - unless your pancreas is failing due to long term over production of insulin, your beta cells are fine - it is your resistance to the insulin you need to alter.

This is not the scientific consensus.

Generally, by the time diabetes is diagnoses there is anywhere between 40% and 70% beta cell dysfunction whereas the insulin resistance has already reached a maximum.

The natural history of Type 2 Diabetes follows a course where insulin resistance 'compels' the beta cells to produce more insulin, and over the years the stress caused by this extra production causes gradual dysfunction. If it were the case that newly diagnosed diabetics only had insulin resistance then insulin production in OGTT would be at least as high as normal people but this tends not to be the case indicating the beta cell dysfunction. Also, postmortem studies have shown there is less beta cell mass: newly diagnosed T2Ds die too - perhaps of other causes.

However, what is important to understand, is that the exact form of this dysfunction and its extent is not fully known. Are the cells dead, unable to coordinate correctly, hampered by fat, dedifferentiation etc?

This last one, dedifferentiation, is interesting. Cells have evolved to preserve themselves. So beta cells it seems can turn into other cells, so there is a question of whether they can turn back into beta-cells again. A lot of research is ongoing in this area.

And of course, Rod Taylor's research suggests that beta-cell function is hampered by fat in the pancreas. Once again whether this can be reversed totally is not well understand hence his research.

But what is important is that there is strong evidence that beta-cell function can be improved. This is especially the case if you are newly diagnosed. Suppose for the sake of argument that you get your beta-cell function from 40% to 65% through weight loss, and then you combine this with exercise. You'll get a double benefit: your insulin sensitivity will improve, the exercise will reduce the need for insulin taking the pressure off the beta-cells. You can put yourself into a situation where you may not be cured but your blood sugar is essentially controlled. Plus you'll feel good about yourself and you'll generally be healthier anyway. How much your beta cells have actually recovered you won't know.

 

[Oldvatr]

This study may be relevant
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/12/181220111759.htm

 

[Guzzler]

This doesn't answer your question directly but is, nonetheless, pertinent and very interesting. About half an hour.

 

[Anniya84]

They certainly have had some regeneration of beta cells in mice. Humans aren't the same as mice so further studies need to be done to see if this also can be possible in humans. The University of Exeter is at the forefront of this research.

https://www.nhs.uk/news/diabetes/fasting-diet-may-help-regenerate-a-diabetic-pancreas/


The gradual recovery documented in type 2 patients has to do with improvements in insulin resistance.

I'm taking part in this Diabetes research at Exeter University. I'm glad to see that they have made some progress!

 

[alienskin]

So I’m likle


So I’m likely to have all my beta cells but I’m just insulin resistant?

Unfortunately, no. This is the case with the early stages of insulin resistance, and to a lesser degree in pre-diabetics, but by the time you have been diagnosed with diabetes your beta cells likely have substantial dysfunction. (See the diagram above).

This is why T2D is progressive. Insulin resistance means your beta cells are working harder, and the dysfunction means there are less of them. But there is some good news: if you make serious changes to lifestyle early in the diagnosis then it seems you can improve the dysfunction to a certain extent, and the insulin resistance a lot. The earlier the better but anytime of course will help.

I was borderline, and these are the changes I made. Lost: 15kg (>2 stone) in 2 months. Cycled last year: 2,000 miles; 150,000ft elevation (5 x Everest). I'm fairly careful what I eat, but not overly so now, and have an A1c of 5.3% (34.4). Get minor after dinner spikes. I was brutal to myself in the first 2 months. I used to count peanuts at the end of the evening. If I'd eaten 750 Cals that day, I'd give myself 4 because 750 + 4*11cals = 794!

Everything else about my health improved too: cholesterol went from high to very low with HDL over 60 and trigs low. Strangely, the borderline diagnosis was the best thing that could have happened to me. I'm healthier now than I have been in decades, and it keeps me motivated. Depends on where you live but the long summer evenings is a great time to cycle.

 

[bulkbiker]

This is why T2D is progressive

Except when it isn't?

 

[Member496333]

Except when it isn't?

And also when many diagnosed type 2 diabetics still have gargantuan quantities of circulating insulin...

 

[bulkbiker]

And also when many diagnosed type 2 diabetics still have gargantuan quantities of circulating insulin...

Which can only be coming from those "dead" beta cells..

 

[Jessielouiseb]

Unfortunately, no. This is the case with the early stages of insulin resistance, and to a lesser degree in pre-diabetics, but by the time you have been diagnosed with diabetes your beta cells likely have substantial dysfunction. (See the diagram above).

This is why T2D is progressive. Insulin resistance means your beta cells are working harder, and the dysfunction means there are less of them. But there is some good news: if you make serious changes to lifestyle early in the diagnosis then it seems you can improve the dysfunction to a certain extent, and the insulin resistance a lot. The earlier the better but anytime of course will help.

I was borderline, and these are the changes I made. Lost: 15kg (>2 stone) in 2 months. Cycled last year: 2,000 miles; 150,000ft elevation (5 x Everest). I'm fairly careful what I eat, but not overly so now, and have an A1c of 5.3% (34.4). Get minor after dinner spikes. I was brutal to myself in the first 2 months. I used to count peanuts at the end of the evening. If I'd eaten 750 Cals that day, I'd give myself 4 because 750 + 4*11cals = 794!

Very interesting....I’ve got my first hba1c blood test next week since being diagnosed...I was 8.4 then 7.7 when I had my second one to confirm if I had diabetes...I use an app to track my blood sugars and it’s says on both my app and my meter my estimated hba1c is 5.3, so if it’s around there I’ll be very happy and the main thing I’ve done is lose weight with slimming world and keep active, I eat up to 200 grams of carbs and my blood sugars are well in normal range....so it makes me think is t2d really that progressive? Like from research I’ve looked up is that it’s insulin resistant and our cells are actually okay and still there and that our cells our clogged up with visceral fat and that’s why they don’t work

 

[alienskin]

Except when it isn't?

OK. 'is generally progressive' would be a more exact statement. And, of course, this progression can be halted or slowed or even reversed somewhat with lifestyle changes.

 

[bulkbiker]

even reversed with lifestyle changes.

So not progressive at all...
Sorry to labour the point but language is important especially when we have people here with all levels of understanding.
Many DN's say that T2 is a chronic, progressive disease to the newly diagnosed which simply instills a "nothing can be done except take the pills" mindset. This drives me mad as its simply untrue and to hear HCP's spouting it is extremely damaging to the patient.

 

[alienskin]

Like from research I’ve looked up is that it’s insulin resistant and our cells are actually okay and still there and that our cells our clogged up with visceral fat and that’s why they don’t work

This is one area of research (Roy Taylor), but the causes of beta cell dysfunction are complex, and not fully understood. But it's well understood that losing weight helps insulin resistance, so if it does turn out that it also improves beta-cell function that's a double benefit.

 

[Member496333]

So not progressive at all...
Sorry to labour the point but language is important especially when we have people here with all levels of understanding.
Many DN's say that T2 is a chronic, progressive disease to the newly diagnosed which simply instills a "nothing can be done except take the pills" mindset. This drives me mad as its simply untrue and to hear HCP's spouting it is extremely damaging to the patient.

I have to agree with this sentiment. If I had taken any notice of my doctor, I’d probably be blind by now. The irony would have been catastrophic. And this does happen to people wrongly advised. Every day. Not picking holes in anyone’s views, just agreeing that the language is critical.

 

[alienskin]

So not progressive at all...
but language is important .

Sorry, but saying 'not progressive at all' is a far more inexact statement.

 

[bulkbiker]

This is one area of research (Rod Taylor), but the causes of beta cell dysfunction are complex, and not fully understood. But it's well understood that losing weight helps insulin resistance, so if it does turn out that it also improves beta-cell function that's a double benefit.

P.S. It's Prof Roy Taylor

 

[alienskin]

P.S. It's Prof Roy Taylor

which I'd already corrected. But thanks anyway.

 

[alienskin]

Statements have a clear context:

"I was borderline, and these are the changes I made. Lost: 15kg (>2 stone) in 2 months. Cycled last year: 2,000 miles; 150,000ft elevation (5 x Everest). I'm fairly careful what I eat, but not overly so now, and have an A1c of 5.3% (34.4)"

was clearly indicating that lifestyle changes can lead to radical improvements.

If you actually want to help people, then a simple, 'tends to be progressive' correction (or whatever with perhaps a link to a peer reviewed study indicating that this is the case), rather than being unhelpfully snarky would make your comments carry some weight.

 

[Oldvatr]

I'm taking part in this Diabetes research at Exeter University. I'm glad to see that they have made some progress!

Interesting study and nice to see proper trials being conducted. it remains to be seen if the mouse modelling translates to humans in vivo as quite often that is not the case. Certainly this is one to watch out for, and hope it produces meaningful results. Certainly it backs up the claims made by Jason Fung, who many here will have heard of. I am presuming he has already got his copy of the paper.

The FMD was conducted for 60 days, and I assume that is human days, So how long is it in mouse days? I seem to remenber that there is something like a factor of 8. So we humans will be looking at around 400 days or so for our salvation. Not a bad deal really if it does what it says on the tin, but I would not class it as a quick fix. However, it is in line with my experience of using LCHF with intermittent fasting, I am hopeful of this research, since it seems to have been well thought out,

I note that one of the researchers had shares in one of the companies involved in the trial, and that is declared at the end, It is not likely to influence the outcome, I note that the diets supplied by said company were all plant based which makes sense for mice, but may not cover the human aspects fully, It was a keto diet to mimic the fasting, and so there are two unknowns at play here which I do not think the study seperated sufficiently so this leaves a question mark in my head as to which was the active ingredient, LCHF keto or the fasting.