This link may be useful for some. http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/nutrition-for-kids/NU00606 The amount of carbs recommended for my daughter's age group is what she currently has.
hypo after every meal.....
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catherinecherub
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What a great find Sophia.
Perhaps this ought to be a sticky for parents to use when looking for suitable levels of carbs?
Perhaps this ought to be a sticky for parents to use when looking for suitable levels of carbs?
Without wishing to stoke controversy or derail a very interesting thread, but I fail to understand why there should be such a thing as a minimum recommended carbohydrate intake for children, if there is no such thing for adults?
Granted, there are many important nutritional requirements for calories, micronutrients etc., but some of the figures quoted as minimum carbohydrate levels for children strike me as odd to say the least. The body requires calories from good quality sources pure and simple and the old maxim 'there's no such thing as an essential carbohydrate' comes to mind.
I certainly wouldn't want underestimate the difficulties involved in precisely tailoring a 9 year old's diet to ensure their best health, but given how hard it must be to maintain healthy blood glucose levels, a significant reduction in carbohydrate would be seriously worth considering surely?
fergus
Granted, there are many important nutritional requirements for calories, micronutrients etc., but some of the figures quoted as minimum carbohydrate levels for children strike me as odd to say the least. The body requires calories from good quality sources pure and simple and the old maxim 'there's no such thing as an essential carbohydrate' comes to mind.
I certainly wouldn't want underestimate the difficulties involved in precisely tailoring a 9 year old's diet to ensure their best health, but given how hard it must be to maintain healthy blood glucose levels, a significant reduction in carbohydrate would be seriously worth considering surely?
fergus
Jen&Khaleb
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Fergus
I suggest you get out of this one. Take your low-carb theory back to the low-carb forum and let children be children.
Jen.
I suggest you get out of this one. Take your low-carb theory back to the low-carb forum and let children be children.
Jen.
sugarless sue
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Jen&Khaleb said:Fergus
I suggest you get out of this one. Take your low-carb theory back to the low-carb forum and let children be children.
Jen.
Jen,
It is not about LOW carb !! Diabetes is an inability to metabolise glucose properly. Therefore it makes sense to REDUCE the amount of carb so that the insulin you give covers it. If you feed more carbs you have to take more insulin therefore more injections etc.
The amount in that link to the Mayo clinic is for healthy children, not children with diabetes.
Your child will be a child, don't worry about that ! Children adapt much quicker than adults and accept their lot in life much more philosophically.
Have you seen a dietician specialising in diabetic children ? What do they recommend ?
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Yes, I have spoken to a dietician who deals with diabetic children and the eating requirements are the same as the non-diabetic child depending on weight and height. A child with diabetes is still a healthy child.
Don't worry, I wont be posting on this site any longer. You have managed to get rid of another person who doesn't share your views.
There is a new site in Australia for Parents of children with diabetes at www.muntedpancreas.com
Jen
sugarless sue said:The amount in that link to the Mayo clinic is for healthy children, not children with diabetes.
Don't worry, I wont be posting on this site any longer. You have managed to get rid of another person who doesn't share your views.
There is a new site in Australia for Parents of children with diabetes at www.muntedpancreas.com
Jen
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Jen.
You obviously have a problem here as you seem to think that all advice given has some sort of low carb agenda ? I am not a low carber, I use a low GI/GL diet with reduced carbs. I realise the toxic affect that carbohydrates has on the human body to a Diabetic. I totally agree with Fergus and Sue and others here.
Your child may be fit and healthy to you but he is still a Diabetic. As Sue says feeding ANY Diabetic, child or no, the very thing that causes blood glucose to rise is counter productive ? More Insulin ? Surely it is only common sense to suggest that a reduction of those carbs has to be a good thing ?
Nobody here has got rid of anybody, you must have been aware when you are on the site that there are many on here who do not agree with the mainstream views offered to us by the medical and dietary 'Professionals' ? Low and non-Low Carbers alike ? You have decided the views expressed by some of us are not to your liking.....not a problem. Blaming us for your problem is just plain daft ! Nobody is telling you you have to agree with any of it. You can choose to ignore it if you wish, as obviously you are. That will never stop people giving the advice, never stop new members joining and seeing good results by following that self same advice.
We have far more members joining than the odd one or two who for whatever reason decide to leave ? We will be sorry to see you and Khaleb go....your choice. I hope that your new website in Australia fits in with your thinking and you are able to feel more comfortable there.
I wish you both well.
You obviously have a problem here as you seem to think that all advice given has some sort of low carb agenda ? I am not a low carber, I use a low GI/GL diet with reduced carbs. I realise the toxic affect that carbohydrates has on the human body to a Diabetic. I totally agree with Fergus and Sue and others here.
Your child may be fit and healthy to you but he is still a Diabetic. As Sue says feeding ANY Diabetic, child or no, the very thing that causes blood glucose to rise is counter productive ? More Insulin ? Surely it is only common sense to suggest that a reduction of those carbs has to be a good thing ?
Nobody here has got rid of anybody, you must have been aware when you are on the site that there are many on here who do not agree with the mainstream views offered to us by the medical and dietary 'Professionals' ? Low and non-Low Carbers alike ? You have decided the views expressed by some of us are not to your liking.....not a problem. Blaming us for your problem is just plain daft ! Nobody is telling you you have to agree with any of it. You can choose to ignore it if you wish, as obviously you are. That will never stop people giving the advice, never stop new members joining and seeing good results by following that self same advice.
We have far more members joining than the odd one or two who for whatever reason decide to leave ? We will be sorry to see you and Khaleb go....your choice. I hope that your new website in Australia fits in with your thinking and you are able to feel more comfortable there.
I wish you both well.
I also have seen a dietician who is part of our diabetes care team. Her advice, as is the advice of our consultant, is that Jess should eat the same healthy diet as a non-diabetic child. We adjust her insulin to cover what she eats. She does not need more injections as a result, she still has the same injections at meal times but perhaps a little more insulin than if she was on a low carb diet. Our consultant and care team say this is the way to do it. I do keep her snacks between meals to low carb (to avoid extra injections), unless she needs the energy boost for sports.
Those who are recommending that our children be given a lower carb diet than is recommended for normal healthy children, please can you say what qualifications you have in juvenille diabetes and nutrition. I'd also be interested to know what evidence you have to support that giving a growing child a low carb diet is not a long term health risk. What do you suggest the carbs be replaced with? Proteins and fats?
Those who are recommending that our children be given a lower carb diet than is recommended for normal healthy children, please can you say what qualifications you have in juvenille diabetes and nutrition. I'd also be interested to know what evidence you have to support that giving a growing child a low carb diet is not a long term health risk. What do you suggest the carbs be replaced with? Proteins and fats?
Hi Sophia,
Frankly, it's in no-ones interest to re-run a low-carb/ high-carb argument on this thread. It's been done elsewhere and anyone interested in the results can read them there.
I'll try to answer just some of your questions, however.
Speaking for myself, none (unless you count a OU qualification in Health and Nutrition, which I don't.) The advice offered here is purely on the basis of what we as individual diabetics know from experience having followed conventional dietetic advice and found it very misguided indeed.
Actually, quite a bit. Many doctors treat diabetic children very successfully with a diet restricted in carbohydrates. Dr Wolfgang Lutz and Dr Richard Bernstein are two of the most well known, but there are others having similar success.
I think some of the 'recommended' levels of carbohydrate intake mentioned on this thread alone would be extremely difficult to reconcile with healthy blood sugar levels for an active diabetic adult like me, so why would they be any better for someone half my size?
Firstly, there are many essential proteins and fats in a healthy diet as recognised by dieticians everywhere. No-one has yet been able to identify an essential carbohydrate. The important point however is that there are many sources of dietary carbohydrates which are perfectly compatable with stable controllable blood glucose levels and could well form the basis of a very healthy diet. They tend to come in the form of vegetables, some fruits and also nuts, all of which tend to form a much larger part of the diet of people restricting their intake of nutritionally much poorer carbohydrates (sugars and starches.)
All the best,
fergus
Frankly, it's in no-ones interest to re-run a low-carb/ high-carb argument on this thread. It's been done elsewhere and anyone interested in the results can read them there.
I'll try to answer just some of your questions, however.
please can you say what qualifications you have in juvenille diabetes and nutrition
Speaking for myself, none (unless you count a OU qualification in Health and Nutrition, which I don't.) The advice offered here is purely on the basis of what we as individual diabetics know from experience having followed conventional dietetic advice and found it very misguided indeed.
evidence you have to support that giving a growing child a low carb diet is not a long term health risk
Actually, quite a bit. Many doctors treat diabetic children very successfully with a diet restricted in carbohydrates. Dr Wolfgang Lutz and Dr Richard Bernstein are two of the most well known, but there are others having similar success.
I think some of the 'recommended' levels of carbohydrate intake mentioned on this thread alone would be extremely difficult to reconcile with healthy blood sugar levels for an active diabetic adult like me, so why would they be any better for someone half my size?
What do you suggest the carbs be replaced with? Proteins and fats?
Firstly, there are many essential proteins and fats in a healthy diet as recognised by dieticians everywhere. No-one has yet been able to identify an essential carbohydrate. The important point however is that there are many sources of dietary carbohydrates which are perfectly compatable with stable controllable blood glucose levels and could well form the basis of a very healthy diet. They tend to come in the form of vegetables, some fruits and also nuts, all of which tend to form a much larger part of the diet of people restricting their intake of nutritionally much poorer carbohydrates (sugars and starches.)
All the best,
fergus
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Hi Sophia
Err....seems to prove the point about carbs/glucose/Insulin I think ? :?
Seems, pretty sensible to me ?
Are children Aliens....? Their bodies are the same as an adults, just at differing stages of development. Human metabolism is complex and a miracle of life. Some things are pretty basic though. One is the effect of certain foods on the human body, what carbohydrates metabolise into, glucose. Now do you conciously feed your child glucose ? I wouldn't have thought so ? A non diabetic can metabolise the glucose and get back to normal pretty quickly, a diabetic can't do that and in the case of a T1 has to inject Insulin to cover it. It works, but it is surely not an ideal situation ? Break the chain somewhere and Insulin can then decrease not increase.
I'm certainly not recommending that a child go on a low carb diet ( I presume you mean Atkins ?).
If you look you will find that there are many types of so called low carb diets, what they all have in common is a reduction of carbohydrate intake. My reduced carb diet is totally different to others as I don't eat fats, for my own particular health reasons. I just picked out the best bits that work for me. I don't replace carbs with anything, I just have less.
What I am saying is that carbohydrates are toxic to a Diabetic, child or no. So, any reduction has to be a good thing ? Then you wouldn't need to add more Insulin to cover them, as quite obviously you are. More Insulin is also not a good idea either. Do you really want to fill the child with something that is instantly converted to glucose, the stuff that causes more Insulin to be required ? Why on earth would you want to do that ?
As for the fact that your care team recommend that intake of carbs that is hardly surprising is it ? They are obviously going to stick to the advice that is mandatory, not many are going to put their heads over the parapet and say that you should reduce carb intake. There are those that do and like here, are criticised for doing so. Trouble is a reduction does work....it lowers Bg levels and lowers the need for Insulin. I suppose you just have to go with what you believe. You have the choice, does the child ?
As you well know, there are very few on here who have professional qualifications in any particular subject. That has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Virtually everybody here gives their opinions the same as you are. You don't have to take note of them, you could just ignore them and go your own way. In the same way that I think you are wrong in believing everything that the HCP's tell you. I know it is difficult to go against the accepted thinking, but that is what brings progress ? Without people questioning things that they are told nothing would ever change.
It isn't going to stop the opinions being given. None of us need to justify ourselves to anybody. We just have different opinions to others. We question medics etc. We don't think that they are always the best judges of what is best for us. If I had listened to the HCP's I would probably be dead by now because of the flawed dietary advice - then I made my own decisions based on my own research.
So, we try to pass on the benefit of that life experience. Each is different, but we are all concerned for everybody else here, child or not. Why would anybody think we are trying to harm someone ? That seems a totally illogical response to me. :?
she still has the same injections at meal times but perhaps a little more insulin
Err....seems to prove the point about carbs/glucose/Insulin I think ? :?
I do keep her snacks between meals to low carb (to avoid extra injections), unless she needs the energy boost for sports.
Seems, pretty sensible to me ?
Are children Aliens....? Their bodies are the same as an adults, just at differing stages of development. Human metabolism is complex and a miracle of life. Some things are pretty basic though. One is the effect of certain foods on the human body, what carbohydrates metabolise into, glucose. Now do you conciously feed your child glucose ? I wouldn't have thought so ? A non diabetic can metabolise the glucose and get back to normal pretty quickly, a diabetic can't do that and in the case of a T1 has to inject Insulin to cover it. It works, but it is surely not an ideal situation ? Break the chain somewhere and Insulin can then decrease not increase.
I'm certainly not recommending that a child go on a low carb diet ( I presume you mean Atkins ?).
If you look you will find that there are many types of so called low carb diets, what they all have in common is a reduction of carbohydrate intake. My reduced carb diet is totally different to others as I don't eat fats, for my own particular health reasons. I just picked out the best bits that work for me. I don't replace carbs with anything, I just have less.
What I am saying is that carbohydrates are toxic to a Diabetic, child or no. So, any reduction has to be a good thing ? Then you wouldn't need to add more Insulin to cover them, as quite obviously you are. More Insulin is also not a good idea either. Do you really want to fill the child with something that is instantly converted to glucose, the stuff that causes more Insulin to be required ? Why on earth would you want to do that ?
As for the fact that your care team recommend that intake of carbs that is hardly surprising is it ? They are obviously going to stick to the advice that is mandatory, not many are going to put their heads over the parapet and say that you should reduce carb intake. There are those that do and like here, are criticised for doing so. Trouble is a reduction does work....it lowers Bg levels and lowers the need for Insulin. I suppose you just have to go with what you believe. You have the choice, does the child ?
As you well know, there are very few on here who have professional qualifications in any particular subject. That has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Virtually everybody here gives their opinions the same as you are. You don't have to take note of them, you could just ignore them and go your own way. In the same way that I think you are wrong in believing everything that the HCP's tell you. I know it is difficult to go against the accepted thinking, but that is what brings progress ? Without people questioning things that they are told nothing would ever change.
It isn't going to stop the opinions being given. None of us need to justify ourselves to anybody. We just have different opinions to others. We question medics etc. We don't think that they are always the best judges of what is best for us. If I had listened to the HCP's I would probably be dead by now because of the flawed dietary advice - then I made my own decisions based on my own research.
So, we try to pass on the benefit of that life experience. Each is different, but we are all concerned for everybody else here, child or not. Why would anybody think we are trying to harm someone ? That seems a totally illogical response to me. :?
thank you for the info fergus, I'll go do some reading on those Drs you mention.
It's not that I think everyone should have a qualification in order to say anything on this forum. It's that when someone suggests I go against what a qualified health care team recommend then I want to know more about the person suggesting I make that change. I don't think it's unreasonable for me to ask what qualification, evidence or experience a person may have to support their advice, especially when this affects my daughter who I make decisions for. If I make the wrong decision in life for myself then I only have to answer to myself, when you make decisions for your child it is a much bigger deal.
It's not that I think everyone should have a qualification in order to say anything on this forum. It's that when someone suggests I go against what a qualified health care team recommend then I want to know more about the person suggesting I make that change. I don't think it's unreasonable for me to ask what qualification, evidence or experience a person may have to support their advice, especially when this affects my daughter who I make decisions for. If I make the wrong decision in life for myself then I only have to answer to myself, when you make decisions for your child it is a much bigger deal.
well said sophia!
it is tough when making decisions for someone else, especially someone so close and vulnerable.
i think it's totally fair to ask what you asked, and i don't think you were being argumentative. i think you were just being cautious. i would certainly take some convincing to turn my back on what a professional medical team have suggested if the new suggestions came from a non professional source.
jonesy
it is tough when making decisions for someone else, especially someone so close and vulnerable.
i think it's totally fair to ask what you asked, and i don't think you were being argumentative. i think you were just being cautious. i would certainly take some convincing to turn my back on what a professional medical team have suggested if the new suggestions came from a non professional source.
jonesy
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Jonesy.
I too applaud Sophia for sticking up for what is best for her child. No contest !
There is no suggestion that anybody is being argumentative. This is a straightforward discussion which is totally different from an argument. Everybody has an opinion, that's what is good about this forum. :mrgreen:
I too applaud Sophia for sticking up for what is best for her child. No contest !
There is no suggestion that anybody is being argumentative. This is a straightforward discussion which is totally different from an argument. Everybody has an opinion, that's what is good about this forum. :mrgreen:
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We do not, as such, give medical advice or offer diagnosis on the site but each brings their own many and diverse experiences to the board which they offer to help one another.
This is a discussion, not an argument. No one, apart from Katharine, gives medical advice on this board but everyone brings their own experiences into the equation. If we did not allow opinions and experiences to be voiced then this forum would be very quiet indeed !
I would be interested, however in Ally 5555's input into this if she is still around as she is a dietician and is a professional.
Hi,
Message for Jen - PLEASE COME BACK!
It is hard raising diabetic children of which sadly I have 2. As a parent we always question our actions and strive to make the right descisions for our children. I totally agree with everyones point of view and take on board all suggestions, but I do think the tone of some responses is a little harsh! And I feel quite uspet that Jen will not be posting here again.
I believe my kids eat a well balanced diet. It is difficult to cut down on carbohydrates as they are in alot of healthy foods, but I do agree that a reduction no matter how big or small is a good thing. My kids love bananas and milk both of which are very healthy but sadly do have carbs. I therefore try and give a well balanced diet, giving their carbs in the forms of fruit, granary bread and oats etc. cutting back on the useless ones like sugared cereals, cakes, biscuits etc.
There is so much conflicting information out there. When my husband was diganosed as a child, it was frowned upon to eat anything with sugar in it and it was recommended to snack on meat and cheese - subsequently many more diabetics suffered heart problems owing to the amount of fat and meat in their diet. I tend to find that our healthcare proffessionals go along with my thoughts about balancing the diet and cutting back not only on the carbs, but also on saturated fats and salt.
JEN PLEASE COME BACK..
Leggott
Message for Jen - PLEASE COME BACK!
It is hard raising diabetic children of which sadly I have 2. As a parent we always question our actions and strive to make the right descisions for our children. I totally agree with everyones point of view and take on board all suggestions, but I do think the tone of some responses is a little harsh! And I feel quite uspet that Jen will not be posting here again.
I believe my kids eat a well balanced diet. It is difficult to cut down on carbohydrates as they are in alot of healthy foods, but I do agree that a reduction no matter how big or small is a good thing. My kids love bananas and milk both of which are very healthy but sadly do have carbs. I therefore try and give a well balanced diet, giving their carbs in the forms of fruit, granary bread and oats etc. cutting back on the useless ones like sugared cereals, cakes, biscuits etc.
There is so much conflicting information out there. When my husband was diganosed as a child, it was frowned upon to eat anything with sugar in it and it was recommended to snack on meat and cheese - subsequently many more diabetics suffered heart problems owing to the amount of fat and meat in their diet. I tend to find that our healthcare proffessionals go along with my thoughts about balancing the diet and cutting back not only on the carbs, but also on saturated fats and salt.
JEN PLEASE COME BACK..
Leggott
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Hi folks,
been following debate all morning and thought i'd add my pennies worth, YES i agree with lowering carbs for children, (thats lowering them, NOT low carbing them, and i believe there is a difference) I prefer to feed Andrew a healthy diet that consists of fresh fruit, veg (including potatoes) red meat,fish, dairy and of course bread. With him following a Gluten Free diet his choices are already limited. But what i do, do is make sure his carb intake doesn't warrent giving him more than 9 units of bolus at a time, we've nailed breakfast at 5 units humalog, lunch 4-6 units of humalog, dinner 6-8 units of humalog and 20 units levemir at bedtime. Naturally sometimes he warrents a correction dose of humalog, be it because of a snack, puberty or my miscalculations. As long as he is putting on weight and growing, i'm happy to lower his carb intake which in turn lowers his insulin requirements. Its all about a healthy balance,
Regards to all,
Suzi x
been following debate all morning and thought i'd add my pennies worth, YES i agree with lowering carbs for children, (thats lowering them, NOT low carbing them, and i believe there is a difference) I prefer to feed Andrew a healthy diet that consists of fresh fruit, veg (including potatoes) red meat,fish, dairy and of course bread. With him following a Gluten Free diet his choices are already limited. But what i do, do is make sure his carb intake doesn't warrent giving him more than 9 units of bolus at a time, we've nailed breakfast at 5 units humalog, lunch 4-6 units of humalog, dinner 6-8 units of humalog and 20 units levemir at bedtime. Naturally sometimes he warrents a correction dose of humalog, be it because of a snack, puberty or my miscalculations. As long as he is putting on weight and growing, i'm happy to lower his carb intake which in turn lowers his insulin requirements. Its all about a healthy balance,
Regards to all,
Suzi x
Well said everyone!
It's in no-one's interest to conduct discussions this important from entrenched positions.
Sophia, your sceptical approach is absolutely 100% right. If it's applied equally to the conventional dietary approach and the reduced carb approach, it is very hard not to conclude that the current orthodoxy is of any benefit to diabetics at all though. Read all you can and come to your own conclusions.
I firmly believe that this is a myth, Leggott. Diabetics have been advised to follow low fat diets for decades now, yet still suffer heart disease at a rate many times that of non-diabetics. The main difference of course is in their much higher average blood glucose and insulin levels, both of which have well documented adverse effects on the heart and cardiovascular system. Fat doesn't have this effect and, despite looking very carefully for the evidence that it causes heart disease, I can't find anything as convincing.
All the best,
fergus
It's in no-one's interest to conduct discussions this important from entrenched positions.
Sophia, your sceptical approach is absolutely 100% right. If it's applied equally to the conventional dietary approach and the reduced carb approach, it is very hard not to conclude that the current orthodoxy is of any benefit to diabetics at all though. Read all you can and come to your own conclusions.
it was recommended to snack on meat and cheese - subsequently many more diabetics suffered heart problems owing to the amount of fat and meat in their diet.
I firmly believe that this is a myth, Leggott. Diabetics have been advised to follow low fat diets for decades now, yet still suffer heart disease at a rate many times that of non-diabetics. The main difference of course is in their much higher average blood glucose and insulin levels, both of which have well documented adverse effects on the heart and cardiovascular system. Fat doesn't have this effect and, despite looking very carefully for the evidence that it causes heart disease, I can't find anything as convincing.
All the best,
fergus
Hi,
Yes, it might be a myth. Over time I'm sure that opinions will change again. I think that giving statins and aspirin also play a part in reducing the complicications of diabetes. My Dad was a heart surgeon and also thought consuming lots of meat and fat was one of the major risk factors especially for someone with diabetes (along with the other well known risks of smoking etc).Hopefully now with the monitoring and medical advances these problems with be reduced.
It is also much easier to eat a balanced diet, if you want to. There are so many choices of foods availabe now, and most fruit and veg is available all year round rather than being seasonal.
Leggott
Yes, it might be a myth. Over time I'm sure that opinions will change again. I think that giving statins and aspirin also play a part in reducing the complicications of diabetes. My Dad was a heart surgeon and also thought consuming lots of meat and fat was one of the major risk factors especially for someone with diabetes (along with the other well known risks of smoking etc).Hopefully now with the monitoring and medical advances these problems with be reduced.
It is also much easier to eat a balanced diet, if you want to. There are so many choices of foods availabe now, and most fruit and veg is available all year round rather than being seasonal.
Leggott
My Son is eleven and T1, his dietician told us to watch his carb intake, she gave us a rough menu planner of what he should be having, she also showed us packaging like breads tortillas etc and showed us the difference in carbs in each one, advising which was best etc. When we left hospital they gave us list of typical foods and the carb count of each of them. We werent told exactly how many carbs to have each day just not to go mad and try and coose the lowest options.
