I am an ex-diabetic type 2 and happy.

[kyrani99]

Some confusion here I think. Should have thought more about that. We use it to mean daft in this area. Sorry.

I now appreciate what you mean. I had misunderstood because of the way it is said in my country, sorry.
kyrani

 

[kyrani99]

There are many books to be found on using the mind and the imagination to balance the body and promote healing. I can not say if they work but when people have a chronic disease or illness, particularly a life threatening one, most would try anything if they thought it would help.

Be careful here because “holistic healing” it is sold in a simplistic ways to make money and does not have any reasonable basis.

They rely on people’s ignorance of the spiritual aspect. this is too difficult is right to be dubious and doubtful. From my observations a lot of it is sham. If so why does the person get well? There are a number of reasons and they have to do with how an individual person reacts somatically and nothing to do with spiritual.

I have used mental and spiritual means to do some incredible things in my body but these are outside the realm of most people. An untrained person, with no spiritual experience and no meditational mastery, has a very, very slim chance of being able to do such things. You can compare an Olympian with the average person in doing some activity. The untrained person may succeed in some cases but in the great majority of cases, without the training and experience they are at a big disadvantage.

HOWEVER, like you said, a person who is desperately ill will try anything to get well and they do have, owing to their desperation, some extraordinary capability. Consider the example that a mother who sees her toddler run over by a car. Untrained and with little muscle power, she IS CAPABLE of lifting the half ton car to rescue her child. It has been seen.

This exact effect really puts a spanner in the works in clinical trials. That is why they do dozens of experiments to try and find the two consecutive ones that show the drug is better than placebo.. and that means statistically better, which may not be very much.

The placebo effect makes it very hard to find the true efficacy of a drug.

 

[kyrani99]

Well, unless you do something worthy of being banned then your opinion is as valid as anyone else's.

If what you are saying has merit then I am surprised we have not heard about it before. Even if it flies in the face of what "they" want us believe I've seen stranger ideas become more popular.

I missed your post and now that I have gone over the thread I found it.

It all depends on what someone thinks is “worthy of being banned”. In some cases people have not behaved in a civil manner, which is reasonable to expect to be banned.

However it is also true that there may be vested interests that they feel a need to be protected. For instance what I posted to the people on the thread of “disproving intelligent design with a mouse trap” I must have got their back up because it challenged evolutionary theory. My investigation into cancer and the conclusions that I have drawn fly in the face of Darwin’s evolutionary theory. They got upset and banned me and were unfair about it because after they banned me they put up questions that I could not answer, not because I didn’t have answers, I did, but because I was no longer able to post my replies.

I guess they believe in free thinking so long as it doesn’t conflict with their beliefs. Pity because I see Dawkins as an intelligent man. I don’t like his arrogance and I think he is a misguided atheist because of his militant stance against religion, though I agree with him there is corruption in organized religion, but I do respect him as a scientist and I do respect his intelligence.

Strange ideas become popular when they are not bad for business or when they generate more business!

 

[SJC]

The last thing I want to do on this forum is pretend I understand everything and have all the answers because I don't. I can't claim anything extraordinary. I am always open to hear what people have to say though. Like you kyrani, I can only tell you what I know has worked for a lot of people, in particular when it comes to panic disorder. I am a little confused by what you wrote because it reads as though you think all people who have panic disorder have a conflict with another person. That's simply not true. I have helped many people with panic disorder who live alone, and even more who don't have a conflict with anyone. In fact, I'd say that a lot of people suffering in this way are in conflict with themselves! Pure unhappiness/depression can cause a lot of personal internal conflict alone...likewise mid life problems, bereavement...the list goes on.

Where panic disorder is concerned, there is one thing that I know for sure remedies the situation. It's the exact opposite of what someone who has panic disorder tends to do. A person who lives in fearful anticipation and who has PD, is scared about how they will feel should they have the next attack. That is first fear. Because it becomes habitual, day in day out to think like this, they are keeping a panic attack a breath away because they have already introduced a high level of anxiety...a steady stream of adrenaline but not always a rush. It doesn't take much for that adrenaline rush though. One sensation in the body that reminds a person of how that felt before and what it led to, is enough to trigger a panic attack. The memory has a big part to play in it all.

What's happened is they have begun to be fearful of the smallest of bodily sensations, memory is triggered, and tells them to be on alert. They have a terrible reactionary feeling of doom. Of course there is actually no real threat...it's a perceived threat. The thing they are fearing is fear itself and what it can make them feel like physically. They are scared to feel that way again if you like.

I have had many success stories helping people get rid of panic attacks for good. I tell them to welcome those feelings, make friends with them if you like. Sure, it feels wrong for them in the beginning and takes lots of practice, but eventually it's a bit like rewiring the brain and making new positive non fearful memories.

I have even asked people to ask for the panic to kill them in some cases. This actually has had some amazing quick results! The panic doesn't know what to do with that! A panic attack sufferer at the height of the attack, most often believes the end result of a panic attack will be extremely detrimental to both their sanity and their lives. They have to learn and accept that it isn't the case at all.To keep seeing this by a) not feeding it second fear, and b) giving it all permission to happen, helps a lot and can eventually lead to complete cure of persistent panic attacks.

It's about trust and acceptance in a new world a sufferer has entered. A world filled with fearful anticipation. It's alien to anyone to keep panicking every day and not think there is something extremely wrong with them. Conflict doesn't always have to be about another person and often it is not.

 

[andcol]

The Placebo effect is a powerful thing. If only we understood the mind more.

 

[SJC]

I would like to add that there is a clear cut difference between someone who has a one off out of the blue panic attack, and a person who has developed full blown panic disorder. We are all different. We all perceive things in our own way, and we all react to different things in a different way. The reaction to the first panic attack is crucial.

There are people who have one panic attack in their lives and are just grateful 'that's all it was'. They tend to get on with their lives and put it behind them. Then there are more sensitive people who react immediately to that first panic attack with fear and dread of it happening again. This dread is often enough to bring on another attack and panic disorder then develops.

 

[kyrani99]

The last thing I want to do on this forum is pretend I understand everything and have all the answers because I don't. I can't claim anything extraordinary. I am always open to hear what people have to say though. Like you kyrani, I can only tell you what I know has worked for a lot of people, in particular when it comes to panic disorder. I am a little confused by what you wrote because it reads as though you think all people who have panic disorder have a conflict with another person. That's simply not true. I have helped many people with panic disorder who live alone, and even more who don't have a conflict with anyone. In fact, I'd say that a lot of people suffering in this way are in conflict with themselves! Pure unhappiness/depression can cause a lot of personal internal conflict alone...likewise mid life problems, bereavement...the list goes on.

Where panic disorder is concerned, there is one thing that I know for sure remedies the situation. It's the exact opposite of what someone who has panic disorder tends to do. A person who lives in fearful anticipation and who has PD, is scared about how they will feel should they have the next attack. That is first fear. Because it becomes habitual, day in day out to think like this, they are keeping a panic attack a breath away because they have already introduced a high level of anxiety...a steady stream of adrenaline but not always a rush. It doesn't take much for that adrenaline rush though. One sensation in the body that reminds a person of how that felt before and what it led to, is enough to trigger a panic attack. The memory has a big part to play in it all.

What's happened is they have begun to be fearful of the smallest of bodily sensations, memory is triggered, and tells them to be on alert. They have a terrible reactionary feeling of doom. Of course there is actually no real threat...it's a perceived threat. The thing they are fearing is fear itself and what it can make them feel like physically. They are scared to feel that way again if you like.

I have had many success stories helping people get rid of panic attacks for good. I tell them to welcome those feelings, make friends with them if you like. Sure, it feels wrong for them in the beginning and takes lots of practice, but eventually it's a bit like rewiring the brain and making new positive non fearful memories.

I have even asked people to ask for the panic to kill them in some cases. This actually has had some amazing quick results! The panic doesn't know what to do with that! A panic attack sufferer at the height of the attack, most often believes the end result of a panic attack will be extremely detrimental to both their sanity and their lives. They have to learn and accept that it isn't the case at all.To keep seeing this by a) not feeding it second fear, and b) giving it all permission to happen, helps a lot and can eventually lead to complete cure of persistent panic attacks.

It's about trust and acceptance in a new world a sufferer has entered. A world filled with fearful anticipation. It's alien to anyone to keep panicking every day and not think there is something extremely wrong with them. Conflict doesn't always have to be about another person and often it is not.

I did say MY findings. NOT necessarily true of everyone, but does give a sound biological reason for the panic.
So your remark of “it reads as though you think all people who have panic disorder have a conflict with another person”(my emphasis) is unfair or you didn’t recall what I had written perhaps.

I accept some of what you say but some stuff, which I know is the medical view, I reject.

You said: “I'd say that a lot of people suffering in this way are in conflict with themselves!” (my emphasis)

I can accept that sometime people can have conflicting issues to deal with, but “in conflict with themselves”??? I know this is a Freudian view but I dispute it. It defies logic!

A personal self, from my understanding, is the sum total of ideas and the somatic reactivity that arises with those ideas (mainly emotional but not only).

Personal self is also affected by relationship. There is an ego self aspect but it is in antithesis to an esi self aspect (esi Greek for ‘you’) So you could say it in plain English an ‘I’ as opposed to a ‘you’. And it is not that the other defines who you are.. NO! But we interact with others. In that interaction we take a stance and that stance is part and parcel of personal self.

In relationship the other is never imaginary. This other can be perceived through mental means. There is such a thing as mental entanglements. Thus we may perceive of ideas that may be borne out of our relationships and thus others. The other is always a real other, father, mother, sister, brother, friend, boss, co-worker, etc., etc., etc. All the relationships in a person’s life in some way help formulate the personal self.


BUT in reality there is NO SELF; a personal self is only an ephemeral being. There is no real personal self. I can assure you that just prior to full mystical experience the personal self is gone.. vanished! There is a profound quiet and immense bliss in its absence.

Personal self arises anew with every moment. It has no real continuity, it is only seeming. It is the reactivity to life and the mistaken identity of the mind’s activity for being. And sure memory plays a part. But there is no way that a renewal, moment by moment, can be in conflict with itself. I’m sorry but it’s laughable.


Panic disorder, in some cases, IN SOME CASES, is a modern form of domestic violence. I am not a therapist like you, but I have had, at various times in my life (and I am now in my sixties), dozens of people ring me up or visit me.. repeatedly to seek counsel, which I freely gave them. I saw a large number of women, some of whom I helped and some whom I observed only because there was little I could do for them. I could say all of them, one extent or another, suffered a variety of what you would call “psychological problems”. However in getting to the bottom of them I saw that invariably they were nothing more or less than abuse, maltreatment mostly by their spouse or partners. Some were willing to get out of the relationship and saw a huge improvement with no other action. Other didn’t or couldn’t leave the relationships and either made limited progress or continued to suffer.

I’m sure you have success stories but what has happened in the background? I have also seen men (or conversely wives where they were the abusive party) back off from one sort of abuse only to engage in another. So the person got well from one type of medical problem only to develop a different problem.

Also I don’t dispute some of you methods. You are teaching them to handle their situation without trying to escape, which means not using a coping habit. That will help for sure because it is the coping habit that is the problem and not the fear in the first place.

I believe you when you said:
“I have even asked people to ask for the panic to kill them in some cases. This actually has had some amazing quick results! The panic doesn't know what to do with that!”


BUT I don’t see that as the panic that doesn’t know what to do. It’s a power game and when the person says kill me they take away the rod. The other party is not interested in killing them, only scaring them into submission. And the physical problem do stem from abuse. I had learnt that the hard way.

In the next post I’ll give you an excerpt out of a book I am writing where I first saw, in no uncertain terms, that physical problems do arise out of underhanded violence. Incredible but true.

 

[kyrani99]

Exerpt from a book I am writing.

When I discovered my late husband was toxic and involved with the underworld, I started packing my bag to leave, then and there. Within a 10 or 15min period I started to feel anxiety, breathing problems and pain in my chest. Then I looked up and saw my husband standing at my bedroom door. He said “if you stop and unpack it again”, pointing to my bag, “everything will be alright”. I looked at him dumbfounded.

“What do you mean “everything will be alright?” I asked with disgust.

“You’ll get well again” he proclaimed with an air of confidence. I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. “How is my not leaving going to get rid of asthma and pain., you idiot? I shouted at him. He proceeded to tell me that he would ‘call them off’. “Call who off? You’re full of garbage” I told him because even then, and despite all the people I’d helped and saw back to health over the years, I still had not connected my health problems to my husband.

I turned and said with sarcasm “how’s my physical problems going to change by not leaving.. stupid”! He told me to go and have a look out the window. I growled. He insisted. I didn’t want to believe that my health could be affected by anyone else. I continued to pile clothes onto my bed out of my wardrobe, even in spite of the problems I was experiencing.

Again he told me to look out of the window to see and this time he added “to see what’s waiting for you”. I scoffed at him but I moved to the window and looked out. Two men in the mid 20;s to early 30’s were standing at the end of our driveway in the semi-dark. The sight of them scared me and I felt a great deal worse but I still could not believe that they could have possibly affected my health before I had even seen them.

“I’m not joking” my husband repeated coldly “I will have you killed if you leave”. His voice was icy, devoid of any emotion. I was seriously shaken, but within me some strange strength took a hold of me. I walked up to him and in a firm and confident void I said, “Read my lips, I am leaving!” even thought I was gasping for breath.

He then said what can I do to stop you from leaving?”

I told him I would stay only if he told me everything he knew, though I didn’t believe he would. He looked at me for a moment and snarled. He didn’t like what I said and then with a smirk he said “you are in no position to bargain. I have given them order to shoot you. You won’t make it to drive down the street.

I got angry and I said “I can still choose to leave, even if I get killed, I can still choose to leave.

You can organize my funeral.”

He was stumped.

“Tell me everything” I said emphatically, “and I’ll stay. I want to know who these people are and what they do. I want to know everything.” I was very frightened and finding it difficult to breathe but even so I did not falter. I demanded full disclosure. My desire to know the truth was far stronger than my fear. I thought to stay long enough to find out what I could and then, with the benefit of knowledge, leave.

He didn’t want to talk but as sick as I was I resumed packing. “Alright” he said, “alright I will tell you some things.” He was spitting his words.

“I am not interested in some things” I demanded, “I want to know everything, otherwise I am out of here, even if I die, I don’t care” . I was very angry and I was experiencing a lot of chest pain but somehow I held it together and spoke firmly. He could see that I meant what I said and maybe he desperately wanted me to stay because to my surprise he agreed. He went to the window, opened it and waved his hand in a forward motion, like the foreman waving off his underlings. I walk up behind him and saw the two men get into their car and drive away. No soon were they gone when my heart and breathing problems began to diminish and within ten minutes or so I felt well again. Every symptom was gone!

 

[kyrani99]

I would like to add that there is a clear cut difference between someone who has a one off out of the blue panic attack, and a person who has developed full blown panic disorder. We are all different. We all perceive things in our own way, and we all react to different things in a different way. The reaction to the first panic attack is crucial.

There are people who have one panic attack in their lives and are just grateful 'that's all it was'. They tend to get on with their lives and put it behind them. Then there are more sensitive people who react immediately to that first panic attack with fear and dread of it happening again. This dread is often enough to bring on another attack and panic disorder then develops.

You need to explain the biology.
Ideas lead to somatic reactivity but it is not based on fancy or fantasy.
Explain the biology for your patients, the ones that are different to my experiences and the experiences of those I have known and helped..I am sure there are other ways panic can happen but you need to explain the physiology.

 

[SJC]

Quote
BUT I don’t see that as the panic that doesn’t know what to do. It’s a power game and when the person says kill me they take away the rod. The other party is not interested in killing them, only scaring them into submission.

I'm afraid I can't say any more really. We know that the panic isn't interested in killing them. A sufferer entrenched in it all often can't see that. They are usually highly surprised to find that after shouting out for it to kill them, that they have regained that which they thought they lost forever....control.


I just try and explain what I have found just the same as you are doing. I haven't needed to go any deeper than I already have with people, to help them get back to some normality with panic attacks every other day. Often we can make things just a little too complicated when actually they are simple. I don't do therapy any more out of choice. I was actually inundated towards the end with young people who had an adverse post reaction to smoking weed. It is notorious in causing panic attacks/disorders in highly sensitive people...and there's no one else involved with that, just an illicit drug.

If you don't mind me saying, I struggled to understand why it was amazing that your chest pain disappeared when the men outside disappeared. I would have thought that was plain relief...threat gone.

Anyway, this is a diabetes forum so talking about panic disorder is going rather off topic.
Take care Kyrani

 

[this is too difficult]

What you have given is the official, medical opinion of psychiatrists and IMO it is unreasonable. Note the psychiatrists are saying “no apparent cause” and not “no cause”. There is no objective evidence.

MY FINDINGS and what I was told by toxic people is the following:

Without any visible signs, a person carrying a concealed weapon,

who has done crime before,

who is trivially relationally entangled with the targeted person,

can pose a threat, by upholding the intent to do a crime IF there is a triangle with a chief offender, i.e., someone strongly related to the targeted person.


The threat is simple. It is done by having made a prior arrangement that says “I’ll give you a call if I decide to give you the go ahead”.

In this way the criminal only needs to be in the vicinity of the targeted person, typically for 5-10 minutes to cause the person to feel intense fear. The idea of danger is not “just an idea”. It is a perception of a threat, of real danger.

From my knowledge, my university training and from my own research, I have yet to find a human being who does no feel fear (ie mobilize their body ready for action, what you call “fight or flight response”) in the face of danger. Conversely I don’t know of any idea that can cause a biological response other than the perception of real danger. I would be very interested if you have found otherwise.

My late husband, who was toxic, and by his own admission was for years involved in these types of games, told me (late in our marriage) how the cheat is done. He gave me information that I was able to verify. The cheat that gives rise to panic attack he said, is done for a variety of reasons. According to him the main reasons is to gain power and influence over another person to manipulate and control them, to limit their movements, to hurt them as revenge or to hurt them for not agreeing with the chief offender.

My late husband also said the chief offender is commonly a spouse (male or female), a sibling or other relative, an employer or other employee, a toxic friend etc. They must be related to the victim and they must be capable of gaining information about the victim, i.e., the victim would confide in them and tell them of their movements.

You can see more detail here if you want:
http://kyrani99book2.wordpress.com/chapter-1/




The “smoking gun” is found in the physiology, when one asks the question:

Why does a person panic? It depends on how a person reacts somatically. Different people react differently.



The answer that I found in the physiology was because of a coping mechanism that’s habit and hence automatic physiological response.



I have discovered in the observation of hundreds of people, two mechanism or ways of coping that uses physiology, they manipulated their breathing. There are probably other ways too that I haven’t seen or are not so readily visible. By my own experiments I found that it is possible to affect awareness by manipulating breathing.



In my research, I found that shallow breathing leads to lethargy and deep breathing leads to distraction. The distraction is due to the brain being engaged in too many activities at once. I found from my experiments that if there is deep breathing then the metabolism is raised and the brain is involved in a lot of extra activities. In serious thinking the type necessary to solve a problem, or concentrated perception, as happens in the 10 or 20 seconds before a fear response, the body lowers metabolism or keeps the metabolism at rest conditions. My experiments don’t include everyone.



Panic is not just fear. It is, as you have recognized in your reply, “escalating fear”. But it is IMO also mounting fear that a person doesn’t know how to handle, thus runs out of control.

What are toxic people?

 

[kyrani99]

What are toxic people?

From my late husband’s definition….

I called him (and others like him) toxic but he called himself and others like him ‘evil’ and I have heard this term ‘evil’ used by other toxic/evil people as well.).

A toxic (evil) person is a person who harms others, with whom they are in relationships, using likeminded others so they are not visibly an offender.

They harm others systematically and in every one of their relationships, for two main reasons.

1. To get pleasure from seeing and feeling the other person’s suffering, (this is called narcissistic supply in psychology jargon) and

2. To manage their lives by gaining power and influence over all others, with whom they are involved. These include relatives, other people in the workplace, friends and associates in social circles. Basically where ever they are involved in society.

The aim in (2) above has three main aspects.

• 1. To gain power and influence over the other person(s) so that they can manipulate and control them.
  2. To punish them for some reason. They may punish another person out of jealousy, because the other person needs “further training” (i.e., they haven’t reacted “as required”), for “obedience training” where the other party is their spouse in particular, or to take revenge.
  3. To discredit a good person in the eyes of others around them, especially their peers, their employers or fellow workers, etc.

Basically they abuse relationships and see relationships as a battleground and the other party as the enemy. And that is true whether the other party is a humane /good person or another evil person like themselves. There is a constant battle for power amongst evil people and it is all underhanded.

These people prey on the communities within which they live.

 

[kyrani99]

Quote

I just try and explain what I have found just the same as you are doing. I haven't needed to go any deeper than I already have with people, to help them get back to some normality with panic attacks every other day. Often we can make things just a little too complicated when actually they are simple. I don't do therapy any more out of choice. I was actually inundated towards the end with young people who had an adverse post reaction to smoking weed. It is notorious in causing panic attacks/disorders in highly sensitive people...and there's no one else involved with that, just an illicit drug.

If you don't mind me saying, I struggled to understand why it was amazing that your chest pain disappeared when the men outside disappeared. I would have thought that was plain relief...threat gone.

Anyway, this is a diabetes forum so talking about panic disorder is going rather off topic.
Take care Kyrani

It doesn’t amaze you that the symptoms started:

BEFORE I knew about the nasty character outside,

BEFORE my husband had come to the door,

BEFORE the threats he made on my life,

BEFORE I looked out of the window to see them.

Yes, there is relief when they were gone but that relief that you call ‘plain’, is not plain.


1. Breathing problems means I was breathing more deeply and rapidly as a result of fear

AND because of a coping habit, ie trying to breathe more deeply from a maximum position.

2. the chest pain is due to an overexertion of the heart.

These are medical condition RESOLVED and not just plain relief.

And while many are treated as you are treating them and successfully, others are not. Furthermore there is growing evidence in the medical literature that people who suffered anxiety/ panic go on to develop heart disease. Thus the matter is not trivial. The biology is the critical issue and not about getting too complicated.

This is not strictly speaking on topic. But a person with serious enough anxiety and/or panic who goes and gets a blood test will find that blood test shows high BGs. How high of course depends on how anxious or panicked they feel at and just before they are tested.. They may get treated for diabetes, when their problem has nothing to do with diabetes.

And it is also true that diabetics can suffer panic and anxiety as anyone else. They need to understand what it does to their blood sugars and why.

Thoughts are not ‘just thoughts’. They may be due to drugs (some medications can cause these symptoms) but they may be perceptions of a real danger issue. If the physiology was “tripped” as you seem to suggest by thoughts then everyone who watches a horror movie would be getting panic attacks. They don’t! Not even panic attack sufferers get panic by a movie.

If panic disorder (ie repeated panic attacks) is so easily treatable, why are people put on drugs?

(note: I gave a wrong link there on page three so if you look at the bottom of the page just below DUNNO LOL have given the link I meant to give. The two links are in red)

 

[SJC]

"When I discovered my late husband was toxic and involved with the underworld, I started packing my bag to leave, then and there. Within a 10 or 15min period I started to feel anxiety, breathing problems and pain in my chest."

You would be emotionless whilst you were at the point of packing bags and leaving your husband? I would imagine all sorts of feelings were running riot right then...so much so that it caused you physical symptoms of distress....yes before you knew about the threat to kill you and the men outside. Anger can actually help diffuse a heightened anxious state...using up the energy caused by being 'anxious' already.

"Furthermore there is growing evidence in the medical literature that people who suffered anxiety/ panic go on to develop heart disease. Thus the matter is not trivial."

I would never trivialize panic disorder or any anxiety disorder. I had an aunt who had panic disorder all her life, she lived to be 80 something and died from cancer. Kyrani, I don;t know where you are getting the studies about people dying from heart attacks and disease, but I can tell you this...

Did you know that having a panic attack is akin to taking a long run exercise wise on your heart? It's actually a good heart workout. Your heart is a muscle as you must know. It is a well known fact that to test the heart with exercise, even vigorous exercise sometimes is good for our heart. So actually, a person having regular panic attacks is giving their heart a workout!

"If the physiology was “tripped” as you seem to suggest by thoughts then everyone who watches a horror movie would be getting panic attacks. They don’t! Not even panic attack sufferers get panic by a movie."

I am surprised that you wrote that. It's obvious that a person who has no chronic anxiety problem isn't going to react to things the same as a person who does. People who don't have panic disorder have more of a rationale when it comes to thoughts. Going on a scary theme ride for example...they expect to be scared, they even want to be.

I have heard many sufferers over the years tell me that watching violent or scary programmes or films makes their anxiety worse, sometimes to the point of panic. There is a sensitivity about a panic attack sufferer that surpasses all sensitivity. Because of their physical state and being awash with adrenaline a lot of the time, every sense is heightened in a constant state. This isn't happening in Mr or Mrs normal, who is watching a scary film!! Their fear is relative to the amount of threat on the film, it is much more controlled and natural state of fear.

Have you known many panic disorder sufferers? 75% of the time they are totally irrational about what they should be fearing. It can leads to health anxiety, phobias, unwanted and sometimes terrifying thoughts, depersonalization, derealization and more. You can't compare them to a person who has no chronic heightened anxiety.

 

[kyrani99]

“You would be emotionless whilst you were at the point of packing bags and leaving your husband? I would imagine all sorts of feelings were running riot right then...so much so that it caused you physical symptoms of distress....yes before you knew about the threat to kill you and the men outside. Anger can actually help diffuse a heightened anxious state...using up the energy caused by being 'anxious' already.”​

I was emotional but not to cause major heart/ lung problems. You seem to think that fear is triggered by simple thoughts. I disagree. Fear is triggered by a perception of danger/ threat. I had to have perceived a threat to have reacted a physical state that was extreme like that. This is what the medicos deny. The reality is that we are not robots and the body does not “just malfunction”. Fear is a full mobilization of the body ready for action and that mobilization is sustained while the danger is perceived.

And anger does dissipate an anxious state but none of that explains the situation. I was still angry after they were gone. I was still anxious after they were gone. I sat at the table across from my husband as he began to relate to me about the evil sub-culture for the 1st time. I felt scared and unsettled because what he had to say was DARK so dark that I lit candles and put them between us on the table. I just needed to get a vivid feel of light, even though the lights were on everywhere around, even the lights in the yard. But my health did not suffer.

“So actually, a person having regular panic attacks is giving their heart a workout!”​

This is not true. The heart is stressed unnaturally and the person feels it. They even are concerned about a heart attack. Even an untrained person who has had to run for their lives and become exhausted doesn’t have the same conditions as a panic attack.

"Going on a scary theme ride for example...they expect to be scared, they even want to be".​

Going on a ride to get an adrenaline kick is far, far different to a panic attack.

You see only the fear as in an ordinary fear situation. This is NOT the case in panic attack.

In the therapy that you describe and which your patients succeed in overcoming the problem, you do not cure them of fear. You are helping them overcome the coping habit, which is the problem when it comes on top of fear. For some the heart is compromised, while for other the heart is overexerted unnaturally.

This isn't happening in Mr or Mrs normal, who is watching a scary film!!​

Right here is the problem. The person with a panic attack IS NOT SICK.
It is as good as saying if someone scares you, you become sick. That is not true.

”Have you known many panic disorder sufferers? 75% of the time they are totally irrational about what they should be fearing. It can leads to health anxiety, phobias, unwanted and sometimes terrifying thoughts, depersonalization, derealization and more. You can't compare them to a person who has no chronic heightened anxiety.”​

Compared to you and other therapists I can’t say I’ve known a great number, however I have seen people with anxiety problems through a life time and known many of the people around them, their relationships. And I found that in every case there were, what I call, toxic relationships. I would not have characterized any of them as sick. They were being stressed. Some recovered, some didn’t. One of them their husband died in a car accident and she moved back to be with her family (in another country). And after a year she told me that she “miraculously” got well after years of heart disease!

A Thought Experiment!

If you were ET and came down to Earth to examine disease and you happened to land in Auschwitz in 1943 say, you saw the German were well dressed, well spoken, well behaved. They did not sound off any alarm bells to prevent riots but you were not to know that. To you the Germans look normal and healthy. And they tell you that they will help the Jews relocated to another more permanent location. You don’t immediately think that means gassing them and burying them. Of course not, that would be “irrational”!

The reality is that we don’t think this sort of thing first up because it is not within our ‘normal everyday experience’. But that normal experience also doesn’t see the underhanded games that are played by some types of people in the community. It also doesn’t recognize that the person affected is not guilty of anything. They are merely unsuspecting of the games because they themselves would not behave in this way.

Anyway.. you find that the Jewish people in the camps have mixed conditions. Some are calm and aloof but others have severe anxiety, feel cold even in warm weather, depersonalization and derealization. Some may be having major problems with their heart, lungs, high or low blood sugars and so on. They tell you they believe the Germans want to harm them. You can’t see any evidence that the Germans want to harm them. Their fears appear irrational and paranoid. You would have said that they uphold beliefs that go against strong reason. And yet they are in touch with a reality that you don’t see, that you can’t possibly see. The reason is that this reality is the interpersonal reality, which is different for everyone. Every person lives in a different reality because their relationships play a bigger role than the physical environment that is common to all. You judge them subjectively and can’t do otherwise.

The problem is that the medical industry denies mental entanglements that arise in relationship and thus ESP /psi as some sort of magical thinking. Sure it makes good economic sense. A lot of drugs can be sold to fix the medical problems but it is highly unethical and leads to social degradation. Toxic people do not double blind anyone rather they relationally entangle the targeted person with the criminals.To show the foul play in an experiment the real conditions have to be recreated and that is not being done. Why not? They won't be funded and it would be a "career-limiting move"!

 

[SJC]

I am sorry, but I don't agree with some of the things you are saying. No two cases of panic disorder will be identical. Of course you will find some panic sufferers are embroiled with toxic people...that's the way of the world, but not a pre-requisite to having a breakdown or getting panic disorder. There are also people who live with toxic people who are unfazed by it. We only care about that which we decide to give importance to.

It may interest you to know that I am anti psychiatry and have been for years. I think it's nothing more than an excuse to sell a lot of drugs .. aka make money. No one understands the brain yet. It is supposedly based on science when in fact there is precious little science behind it.

 

[Spiker]

“The cure is within yourself” is a common remark of New Age Gurus but.. IMO it is “a bunch of rubbish”. That is NOT what I’m saying. It is true that we perceive the mind as “within” so in that sense you can say that if you look within and discover the problematic ideas then you are on your way to resolving the disease. But there is a big difference between looking within at ideas in mind and “the cure is within yourself”! The mind is a common platform.


The general message that you observe of “blame for the person with a condition for allowing emotional problems to cause their physical problems and not being strong enough or spiritual enough to "heal" themselves” (my emphases) is IMO baloney.


Also the idea that “either by "forgiving" themselves or others, who are the causes of their emotional and subsequent physical ills” that they supposedly get well, ALSO, IMO is garbage. There are plenty of occasions where forgiveness of other who are offending against you is the worst thing you can do. Forgiveness is not a bandage or a panacea. There are times where it is very good but there are also times where it is useless and even puts the person at greater risk of harm by the offenders.

Because one person has found a way of being cured does not make others failures.

The type of person, who blames another person, either for having a disease or not being able to get well, is almost always an inhumane, toxic person (IMO human but rubbish).

The person who has made a discovery that has helped them to health, has an obligation to tell others, to assist other in their journey to health, if those others desire their help and their problem is similar enough. It is highly unethical for me to know how to get well in cases like mine and not share what I know with other. To see others suffer and not share what I have discovered? It is unthinkable. To have empathy and to reach out to others is what it means to be humane and decent.

There is no “strong link between emotional issues and a dis- ease” or disease. Emotions ARE reactivity in the body, but emotions alone are not enough to cause problems unless they are long standing and /or conflicting, which is not normal. For instance anxiety, which is the mix of either ANGER and WORRY or FEAR and WORRY, can become a health hazard if it goes on for a long time. Both anger and fear raise the metabolism. Worry lowers the metabolism. So you end up with vital organs such as the heart trying to go fast and slow at the same time. There is a very simple case. There is lot more to most diseases than mere emotional issues, at least from my experience.

“Emotional issues don’t manifest physically”, it is the emotions that are physical reactivity in the body. The issues are outside and the ideas that point to those issues are mental. For example danger can become an “emotional issue”, depending on the circumstances, but it does not “manifest physically” in the body.

For the above reason “remission of those disorders by healing emotional issues” is obviously not true. You can’t heal emotional issues. You can resolve them so the emotional reactivity is resolved. But diseases and disorder are a lot more than that.

This “some conditions have an emotional basis” is also not true. No condition has an emotional basis. Medical conditions in the body can arise owing to what we could call “emotional bleeding”. Dr. Keith Scott-Mumby, who is a medical, but alternative, diet etc doctor, acknowledges that if you don’t help the patient overcome recurrent emotions, you cannot help them on their journey to health, but the disease is more than the emotional reactivity. It is not that if you resolve the emotions you got instant results. Rather the emotions can be an important part of the medical picture.

This remark “past life issues impacting on this incarnation as an explanation” is also IMO false. There are no past issues that can impact on health in this incarnation. I see this as part of a more general misconception about karma. The idea of what you do in one life, you will be punished or rewarded in the next is bogus. This is not what karma is about.

I have yet to find a new age author that I agree with. Not even the well educated ones, people like Bruce Lipton, for instance. He is a New Ager, a Harvard University guy if I remember correctly.. “the best doctors money can buy” variety.. but I think his message about disease is not valid. He was one of the early pioneers in epigenetics and did some extremely good work in that field, both in the lab and bringing the message to other scientists and doctors and he is admirable for that, but then he started to marry up epigenetics with quantum physics like ideas and in IMO he went of the rails. I can’t see how you can use his methods to get well.

Lastly, and very importantly, if you think “sometimes it is just s**t happens” then you don't see the big picture. That is what you need to remedy and no shovels goona help!

Ultimately it is the set of the sail and not of the gale, that determines the way the ship will go. BUT if you are NOT the captain of your ship, then your ship doesn’t go where you want to go.

Sh*t NEVER “just happens”.

Kyrani

Kyrani, if this is how you respond to people who are trying to agree with you, or meet you half way, you are not going to stay unbanned for long.

 

[Spiker]

"S**t happens* is an attitude of mind that I find useful occasionally, I've long since realised that sometimes there isn't an explanation for everything, and I prefer to use my energies elsewhere and move on

'**** happens' is a pretty good summary of Buddhist detachment, about as good as you are going to get in two words of ordinary English.

 

[Spiker]

What you have given is the official, medical opinion of psychiatrists and IMO it is unreasonable. Note the psychiatrists are saying “no apparent cause” and not “no cause”. There is no objective evidence.

MY FINDINGS and what I was told by toxic people is the following:

Without any visible signs, a person carrying a concealed weapon,

who has done crime before,

who is trivially relationally entangled with the targeted person,

can pose a threat, by upholding the intent to do a crime IF there is a triangle with a chief offender, i.e., someone strongly related to the targeted person.


The threat is simple. It is done by having made a prior arrangement that says “I’ll give you a call if I decide to give you the go ahead”.

In this way the criminal only needs to be in the vicinity of the targeted person, typically for 5-10 minutes to cause the person to feel intense fear. The idea of danger is not “just an idea”. It is a perception of a threat, of real danger.

From my knowledge, my university training and from my own research, I have yet to find a human being who does no feel fear (ie mobilize their body ready for action, what you call “fight or flight response”) in the face of danger. Conversely I don’t know of any idea that can cause a biological response other than the perception of real danger. I would be very interested if you have found otherwise.

My late husband, who was toxic, and by his own admission was for years involved in these types of games, told me (late in our marriage) how the cheat is done. He gave me information that I was able to verify. The cheat that gives rise to panic attack he said, is done for a variety of reasons. According to him the main reasons is to gain power and influence over another person to manipulate and control them, to limit their movements, to hurt them as revenge or to hurt them for not agreeing with the chief offender.

My late husband also said the chief offender is commonly a spouse (male or female), a sibling or other relative, an employer or other employee, a toxic friend etc. They must be related to the victim and they must be capable of gaining information about the victim, i.e., the victim would confide in them and tell them of their movements.

You can see more detail here if you want:
http://kyrani99book2.wordpress.com/chapter-1/

Sorrry I gave the wrong link, it is still relevant though so I leave it in.
This is the link I meant to give:
http://kyrani99book1.wordpress.com/

The “smoking gun” is found in the physiology, when one asks the question:

Why does a person panic? It depends on how a person reacts somatically. Different people react differently.



The answer that I found in the physiology was because of a coping mechanism that’s habit and hence automatic physiological response.



I have discovered in the observation of hundreds of people, two mechanism or ways of coping that uses physiology, they manipulated their breathing. There are probably other ways too that I haven’t seen or are not so readily visible. By my own experiments I found that it is possible to affect awareness by manipulating breathing.



In my research, I found that shallow breathing leads to lethargy and deep breathing leads to distraction. The distraction is due to the brain being engaged in too many activities at once. I found from my experiments that if there is deep breathing then the metabolism is raised and the brain is involved in a lot of extra activities. In serious thinking the type necessary to solve a problem, or concentrated perception, as happens in the 10 or 20 seconds before a fear response, the body lowers metabolism or keeps the metabolism at rest conditions. My experiments don’t include everyone.



Panic is not just fear. It is, as you have recognized in your reply, “escalating fear”. But it is IMO also mounting fear that a person doesn’t know how to handle, thus runs out of control.

Kyrani, you are hilarious. The one person on the thread who is trying to agree with you, at least in part, and you tell her she's wrong and lump her in with your self-declared enemies, the medical establishment. :-D

 

[Spiker]

My first language is Dutch, but I have spoken English for most of my life . I have difficulties though when I'm trying to follow a thread of thought but I'm tired, the family are making enough noise for thrash metal loving trolls and the Android gremlins is playing up

Hell, I barely understand myself sometimes!

Signy

Signy, your English is better than most English people's. ThisIsTooDifficult was implying you were being too clever. I'm not sure he's read the original post you were trying to respond to!