I Am Totally Confused

[nolly53]

I AM TOTALLY CONFUSED

I have been diabetic since 2002. I was told that my diabetes would progress and so it did. First Metformin then I started using insulin 7 years ago. The dosage was gradually increased.

Four years ago I read Dr David Cavan’s book “Reversing your Diabetes”. As I result I changed my eating lifestyle. As a result I halved my insulin intake overnight and lost almost 10kg in about 10 weeks. Great. Perhaps, as Dr Cavan suggests my diabetes may not be progressive after all.

However further reductions in insulin have not followed and I seemed to have plateaued.

Earlier this year my diabetic specialist prescribed Jardiance. At first I thought that this would be the answer. I started losing more weight and was able to halve my insulin intake again. However, within a month I was in hospital for the first time in 50 years with a serious urinary infection.

This has made me determined to get off insulin and diabetes medication altogether and reverse my diabetes. But how?

This is my dilemma – everywhere I look I get conflicting evidence and “advice”.

1. I could follow the Diabetes UK Healthy eating sheet given to me recently which recommends “Avoid skipping meals”, “eat pasta, easy cook rice, new potatoes”, “Cut down on fat – eat low fat or diet yoghurts”, “a small glass of fruit juice or fruit smoothie” etc.

2. In total contrast to “Avoid skipping meals”, Dr Jason Fung recommends Intermittent Fasting as a solution.

3. Dr Eric Berg recommends “carbs must be reduced. Fats can be increased”

4. Dr. Neal Barnard of PCRM tells us that it is the fat in the cells that makes them insulin resistant. “The old approach had us cutting down on carbohydrates.” “A low-fat vegetarian approach recognizes that whole-food carbohydrates are fine; it’s the fat in our diets that is the problem.”

You see my problem, and I believe the problem facing all type 2 diabetics. These recommendations are contradictory and in some cases mutually exclusive. In fact you only need to look at this website to see the abundance of diets and methods suggested.

There are probably other non-medicine solutions out there. Does it matter which one I choose? This is so important to me that I don’t want to make a bad choice. Do I have to give them all a go to find out for myself what actually works?

nolly53

 

[EllieM]

Well, I'm T1 so it's not so relevant for me but if I were T2 I would go the low carb route. (no 3). The offcial UK recommendations still follow high carb low fat route, which is outdated (deep flaws in the original study which recommended it) and are useless to T2s who are carb intolerant. Nothing wrong with intermittent fasting, but keep the carbs down.
Not sure about the Vegan approach, have a look at the Vegan section here. I think it's probably excellent for non-diabetics but not sure it works for people who are carb intolerant/insulin resistant.

 

[NicoleC1971]

I get your dilemna though I am a type 1 (no cure but just ongoing 'management') . You can google any approach you like and find 'evidence' to echo your bias. On this forum the bias is towards the low carb with the rationale being as type 2 you are in some way intolerant of carbohydrate and produce too much insulin, become insulin resistant and then on the spectrum of diabetes.
The Diabetes UK site places the emphasis on losing weight and protecting your heart (hence low fat and higher carb) but this approach is correlated with increasing rates of diabetes in particular and obesity in general possibly because it is based on the flawed idea of counting calories. Sadly going low fat and./or taking statins does NOT protect diabetics from getting heart disease either if they are using lots of meds to control their blood glucose without changing carb intake.
The vegans have moral reasons (care for animals with faces and mothers, though not slugs evidently!) for eschewing meat and dairy however we evolved to be omnivores and in the long term a vegan diet needs supplementation. On the diabetic front if you were eating lots of white carbs and swapped to lower GI versions and more green veg etc. then you'd undoubtely lose weight and consequently inprove your blood glucoselevels . But being vegan is hard work and I can't see a good health reason for giving up dairy and meat with all the protein, vitamins and minerals plus healthy fats they contain!
You seem to be at a cross roads with this having not found the magic pill so far. Could you draw up a list to evaluate the options that's personal to you and your life . Otherwise you risk being in 'analysis paralysis' . Once you've decided something that seems to work for others and appeals to you, then get consistent with whatever changes you make recogising that you need to stick at this for the rest of your life and it will include some plateaus as your body gets used to being smaller! Measure yourself including waist size and bg results objectively and then subjectively e.g. am I hungry? do I have good energy levels/cravings?

 

[Rachox]

I’m Type 2, diagnosed 16 months ago with an HbA1c of 70. I went straight for the low carb route keeping to under 100g/day. I have gradually reduced to under 50g/day. I’m just on Metformin which I recently reduced. I have lost 6 stone and my HbA1c has been non diabetic for nearly a year. So what I’m saying is low carbing has worked a treat for me

 

[Scimama]

I AM TOTALLY CONFUSED
4. Dr. Neal Barnard of PCRM tells us that it is the fat in the cells that makes them insulin resistant. “The old approach had us cutting down on carbohydrates.” “A low-fat vegetarian approach recognizes that whole-food carbohydrates are fine; it’s the fat in our diets that is the problem.”
nolly53

I am a T2 (diet controlled) in my own personal experience as a vegetarian from birth - approach 4 didnt work! I followed a low fat, high fiber vegetarian (vegan for many years). I ate lots of fruit and veg, filled up on higher fiber carbs such as brown rice, wholegrain pasta porridge etc, refused to eat anything that was more than 5% fat. I still became T2.
After I was diagnosed the NHS dietitian said I was following a "perfect diet" and should continue. GP just told me I was going to take metformin.
I refused the meds , bought my own meter and started to test how my body reacted tot he foods I ate. I was shocked at how high the spoke was after my "healthy porridge made with skimmed milk", the horror of the spike after my low fat wholewheat veggie lasagne.

After reading lots of the info on this forum, and continued testing with my meter it was very evident that the low carb approach worked for me. It did take me a long time to overcome my fear (years of brainwashing) of low fat.

I now eat a vegetarian low carb healthy fat diet. My blood glucose levels are controlled, I have no diabetic complications, I have never needed any medication (other than a multivitamin to ensure I get enough B12 and iron) my cholesterol levels are normal (lowish). My only "problem" is not loosing too much weight each week - yes really!! despite eating cheese, clotted cream, chocolate etc every week.
This approach works for me, we are all individuals, the only way I found what worked for me was to test, test test, I still test but dont get too worried about small changes. (I have discovered that my BG levels follow hormonal changes (monthly cyces and ovulation) and are raised a few days before I come down with a cold/virus etc.

Have a good look around the forum, have a look at the dietdoctor website for great low carb ideas (there are pictures on the site for lower carb choices - so useful!)

Keep asking for help

 

[nolly53]

Well, I'm T1 so it's not so relevant for me but if I were T2 I would go the low carb route. (no 3). The offcial UK recommendations still follow high carb low fat route, which is outdated (deep flaws in the original study which recommended it) and are useless to T2s who are carb intolerant. Nothing wrong with intermittent fasting, but keep the carbs down.
Not sure about the Vegan approach, have a look at the Vegan section here. I think it's probably excellent for non-diabetics but not sure it works for people who are carb intolerant/insulin resistant.

Thanks EllieM. I find it amazing that Diabetic nurses and dieticians are distributing mis-information as in (1). I am interested in LCHF but Dr. Neal Barnard of PCRM certainly makes a case for no fat, not just for treating diabetes but lots of other illnesses.

I will be interested to see what others think.

nolly53

 

[ziggy_w]

Hi @nolly53,

I echo the sentiments above. After diagnosis three years ago, I was put on metformin and switched to eating low carb. Within, three months my blood sugars had fallen from an HbA1c of 100 to an HbA1c of 34. I am now off all medication for two and a half years and still have normal non-diabetic blood sugar levels.

Going low-carb also decreases your feelings of hunger, so many of us naturally drift to skipping some meals, which also helps.

Low-carb can be very effective in lowering blood sugar levels. So, it might be a good idea to monitor your levels closely if you are on insulin to avoid going hypo.

 

[nolly53]

I get your dilemna though I am a type 1 (no cure but just ongoing 'management') . You can google any approach you like and find 'evidence' to echo your bias. On this forum the bias is towards the low carb with the rationale being as type 2 you are in some way intolerant of carbohydrate and produce too much insulin, become insulin resistant and then on the spectrum of diabetes.
The Diabetes UK site places the emphasis on losing weight and protecting your heart (hence low fat and higher carb) but this approach is correlated with increasing rates of diabetes in particular and obesity in general possibly because it is based on the flawed idea of counting calories. Sadly going low fat and./or taking statins does NOT protect diabetics from getting heart disease either if they are using lots of meds to control their blood glucose without changing carb intake.
The vegans have moral reasons (care for animals with faces and mothers, though not slugs evidently!) for eschewing meat and dairy however we evolved to be omnivores and in the long term a vegan diet needs supplementation. On the diabetic front if you were eating lots of white carbs and swapped to lower GI versions and more green veg etc. then you'd undoubtely lose weight and consequently inprove your blood glucoselevels . But being vegan is hard work and I can't see a good health reason for giving up dairy and meat with all the protein, vitamins and minerals plus healthy fats they contain!
You seem to be at a cross roads with this having not found the magic pill so far. Could you draw up a list to evaluate the options that's personal to you and your life . Otherwise you risk being in 'analysis paralysis' . Once you've decided something that seems to work for others and appeals to you, then get consistent with whatever changes you make recogising that you need to stick at this for the rest of your life and it will include some plateaus as your body gets used to being smaller! Measure yourself including waist size and bg results objectively and then subjectively e.g. am I hungry? do I have good energy levels/cravings?

Thanks NicoleC1971.

You are quite right. I have 'analysis paralysis'!!

Thanks for the reply.

nolly53

 

[david1968]

Intermittent fasting has worked for me. That and more exercise.

I occasionally do three day 'water only' fasts, but in the main I'm down to eating one meal a day and drinking lots of water. I also walk about 6 to 7 miles per day.

I've lost four stone in the process and gone from insulin onto a single tablet of metformin a day, though at the moment I'm trying to manage things by diet and exercise alone.

Good look in finding a way that works for you.

 

[Krystyna23040]

@nolly53 You say in your post "you could follow the Diabetes UK Healthy eating sheet given to you recently which recommends “Avoid skipping meals”, “eat pasta, easy cook rice, new potatoes”, “Cut down on fat – eat low fat or diet yoghurts”, “a small glass of fruit juice or fruit smoothie” etc." I would just like to let you know what happened to me when I followed that advice ".

Right foot went from low risk to.moderate risk as it began to get more and more numb. Eyes went from.no retinopathy to some background retinopathy then full blown retinopathy and diabetic macular oedema which needed regular injections of Lucentis directly into my eyes. This happened even though I was injecting insulin for everything I ate. I was a model T2D and was congratulated on how well I was controlling the diabetes.

I couldn't carry on down the road to blindness and foot amputations so I 'jumped ship ' and went low carb and keto. Result was - diabetes in remission, Not on insulin or any meds now, all eye problems reversed, foot no longer numb and at the last check was now at low risk.

You have come to the right place as there is so much good advice and support on this forum.

 

[ziggy_w]

Thanks EllieM. I find it amazing that Diabetic nurses and dieticians are distributing mis-information as in (1). I am interested in LCHF but Dr. Neal Barnard of PCRM certainly makes a case for no fat, not just for treating diabetes but lots of other illnesses.

I will be interested to see what others think.

nolly53

Hi @nolly53,

If you reduce carbs, you need to make up the shortfall in calories. So, there is only fat or protein left. Personally, I am limited as to the amount of protein I can realistically eat, so I have upped my fats. I usually tend towards cheese, fatty meats, butter, olive, avocado or macadamia oil.

I have found that when going low-carb and higher fats my cholesterol has stayed about the same, but all ratios improved. HDL is up, trigs are down. Also my blood pressure has come down from 135 over 85 to 110 over 70. So, all markers related to heart disease have improved. (There are also many, and I tend to be among them, that believe that total cholesterol and LDL tend to be relatively unimportant markers of heart health anyway).

You might also want to have a look at the results of Virta Health. https://www.virtahealth.com/ They were able to reduce medication in 90 percent of T2s and have 60 percent return to non-diabetic or prediabetic blood sugar levels on no medication or only metformin while improving almost all markers of heart disease.

 

[Terrytiddy]

Hi @nolly53 there is so many different people saying so many different things so you will be confused. I did the similar thing to @Rachox. I went Low Carb High Fat (LCHF) and also started Keto after about 2 months. Carbs are the worst thing for diabetics as well as sugar. I now have less than 10g carbs a day, and lucky never had a sweet tooth. HbA1c down from 82 to 41 and blood glucose down from 16.6 to 4.7 average over 30 days and a 4 stone weight loss and off all diabetes meds. All done in 3 months! Month later off one blood pressure meds and another 1 stone off and feeling great. You just have to look at sone of the threads on here to see what success stories people have had with various ways of eating and choose one that will suit you. Good luck on what ever path you take,

 

[dawnmc]

I was vegetarian when diagnosed with diabetes. I was told I had a good diet also. I asked if it was that healthy why if I carried on eating like that would I expect any change. I'm a good cook but a lazy one, I eat to live not live to eat. I was starving eating as a vegetarian so I began eating meat. I can't say I've lost weight or seen my sugars reduce but I'm not hungry.
I was put on jardiance a month ago, haven't told my dn yet, but after reading Jenny Ruhl I've stopped taking it. Its not been tested enough and they aren't testing on me.

 

[Dr Snoddy]

Hi Nolly53.
I was diagnosed as T2 over 4 years ago with an HbA1c of 104. The DN told me that the condition was progressive and that, if I could tolerate it, I would be on 2000mg of Metformin for life with the possibility of eventually needing insulin. She prescribed the standard NHS 'healthy carbohydrate' diet and suggested some increased exercise. I reasoned that if carbs were the problem then continuing to eat them did not make sense. Fortunately I discovered this forum! I do not eat meat so listed all the protein sources that I could eat and started planning meals around the list. I also started including more fat which was tricky as I had been eating high carb low fat for years (and gaining weight!). Within 4 months I had lost 3 stone and reached an HbA1c of 36. I halved the dosage of Metformin. The diabetes nurse referred to me as her star but I did not tell her that I ignored much of her dietary advice. (I did take on board the advice about foot and eye care etc). She has since retired.
I also increased the amount of exercise I do. My HbA1c has stayed in the non-diabetic range for the last 4 years. Three months ago I reduced Metformin to 500mg per day. My HbA1c yesterday was 37!!
I agree with the advice of the other people who have posted. I too was very confused about the wealth of information available. I took the approach that I would prepare more of my own meals based around foods that I like to eat and that I would start to take care of myself more. The T2 diagnosis was a wake-up call. There are people on this forum who have had great success in reversing their diabetes even many years after diagnosis. My best wishes go with you for embracing whatever changes you decide to make.

 

[nolly53]

@nolly53 You say in your post "you could follow the Diabetes UK Healthy eating sheet given to you recently which recommends “Avoid skipping meals”, “eat pasta, easy cook rice, new potatoes”, “Cut down on fat – eat low fat or diet yoghurts”, “a small glass of fruit juice or fruit smoothie” etc." I would just like to let you know what happened to me when I followed that advice ".

Right foot went from low risk to.moderate risk as it began to get more and more numb. Eyes went from.no retinopathy to some background retinopathy then full blown retinopathy and diabetic macular oedema which needed regular injections of Lucentis directly into my eyes. This happened even though I was injecting insulin for everything I ate. I was a model T2D and was congratulated on how well I was controlling the diabetes.

I couldn't carry on down the road to blindness and foot amputations so I 'jumped ship ' and went low carb and keto. Result was - diabetes in remission, Not on insulin or any meds now, all eye problems reversed, foot no longer numb and at the last check was now at low risk.

You have come to the right place as there is so much good advice and support on this forum.

Hi Krystyna23040,
Thanks for the reply. Perhaps I misled you slightly... whilst I could follow the Diabetes UK Healthy eating sheet, I have no intention to. Like you, my diabetes progressed simply because I did follow it. In fact the only time my diabetes has improved is when I read Dr David Cavan’s book “Reversing your Diabetes” and dumped the NHS advice given. I was citing the Diabetes UK Healthy eating sheet as one of the conflicting pieces of advice that I have come across.

I am delighted for you and particularly interested to hear that your and feet symptoms reversed. Whilst I have no eye problems, I do suffer from diabetic neuropathy and am encouraged that it may reverse when my diabetes improves.

Thanks for your input.

nolly53

 

[nolly53]

Hi Nolly53.
I was diagnosed as T2 over 4 years ago with an HbA1c of 104. The DN told me that the condition was progressive and that, if I could tolerate it, I would be on 2000mg of Metformin for life with the possibility of eventually needing insulin. She prescribed the standard NHS 'healthy carbohydrate' diet and suggested some increased exercise. I reasoned that if carbs were the problem then continuing to eat them did not make sense. Fortunately I discovered this forum! I do not meat so listed all the protein sources that I could eat and started planning meals around the list. I also started including more fat which was tricky as I had been eating high carb low fat for years (and gaining weight!). Within 4 months I had lost 3 stone and reached an HbA1c of 36. I halved the dosage of Metformin. The diabetes nurse referred to me as her star but I did not tell her that I ignored much of her dietary advice. (I did take on board the advice about foot and eye care etc). She has since retired.
I also increased the amount of exercise I do. My HbA1c has stayed in the non-diabetic range for the last 4 years. Three months ago I reduced Metformin to 500mg per day. My HbA1c yesterday was 37!!
I agree with the advice of the other people who have posted. I too was very confused about the wealth of information available. I took the approach that I would prepare more of my own meals based around foods that I like to eat and that I would start to take care of myself more. The T2 diagnosis was a wake-up call. There are people on this forum who have had great success in reversing their diabetes even many years after diagnosis. My best wishes go with you for embracing whatever changes you decide to make.

Thank you for your encouragement.

nolly53

 

[nolly53]

I was vegetarian when diagnosed with diabetes. I was told I had a good diet also. I asked if it was that healthy why if I carried on eating like that would I expect any change. I'm a good cook but a lazy one, I eat to live not live to eat. I was starving eating as a vegetarian so I began eating meat. I can't say I've lost weight or seen my sugars reduce but I'm not hungry.
I was put on jardiance a month ago, haven't told my dn yet, but after reading Jenny Ruhl I've stopped taking it. Its not been tested enough and they aren't testing on me.

Very interesting that you were vegetarian when diagnosed with diabetes. (This goes against Dr. Neal Barnard's teaching.)

I agree with you about Jardiance. I certainly would never consider taking it again.

nolly53

 

[Flora123]

Very interesting that you were vegetarian when diagnosed with diabetes. (This goes against Dr. Neal Barnard's teaching.)

I agree with you about Jardiance. I certainly would never consider taking it again.

nolly53

I was also vegetarian when diagnosed.

 

[Guzzler]

Just to muddy the waters further, you have not mentioned ND (Newcastle Diet).

How about the 'Eat to your Meter' method? If you like what you just ate and get good readings on your meter then job's a goodun. My LCHF lifestyle suits me and has served to help me lower my A1c, lose weight and so far avoid complications. The Diet/Heart hypothesis has been debunked, healthy fats are a better source of fuel than carbohydrates especially for those of us with Pre Diabetes and Type 2 Diabetes. Eating red meat will not make you explode next Wednesday. My diet is varied and filling and sustainable. I take no supplements and take just one Diabetes medication (Metformin).

The fact that we are all individual means that though our stories may be very similar some of us have different hurdles to jump. A stalling of weight loss or reduction in medications or change of dietary regime needed are the differences between us. I probably havn't helped you in your quest to find your own personal optimal regime but I will just add that that LCHF has done me no harm.

 

[Krystyna23040]

Hi Krystyna23040,
Thanks for the reply. Perhaps I misled you slightly... whilst I could follow the Diabetes UK Healthy eating sheet, I have no intention to. Like you, my diabetes progressed simply because I did follow it. In fact the only time my diabetes has improved is when I read Dr David Cavan’s book “Reversing your Diabetes” and dumped the NHS advice given. I was citing the Diabetes UK Healthy eating sheet as one of the conflicting pieces of advice that I have come across.

I am delighted for you and particularly interested to hear that your and feet symptoms reversed. Whilst I have no eye problems, I do suffer from diabetic neuropathy and am encouraged that it may reverse when my diabetes improves.

Thanks for your input.

nolly53

Am so.pleased to hear that you had no intention of following the NHS advice. I am quite cross with myself that I followed it for so long. It is interesting that the diabetic neuropathy can be reversed. I was very surprised when it happened because everything I have read says that it can't be reversed.