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IF or TRF?

Discussion in 'Fasting' started by Larissima, Jul 12, 2019.

  1. Larissima

    Larissima Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Thanks to @Winnie53 for linking to a podcast by Peter Attia - I'd heard of and from him through Tim Ferris, but never saw his website before. In this short video, he explains his viewpoint about IF - that it's only fasting if it's longer than 24 hours, and any shorter stints (16/8, etc.) are Time Restricted Feeding. Now, TRF as such is very healthy, as explained by Satchin Panda in his book Circadian Code, but for people with metabolic diseases (eg. T2D), fasting (or general caloric restriction, which Attia doesn't rate, but many adherents of Fast800 do) is also necessary to regain health.

    Do you practice TRF or IF, or both? Currently, I am just back to TRF (alternate days OMAD/2MAD), but hope to add some IF into the mix soon.

    Vimeo:
    https://peterattiamd.com/framework-for-nutrition-and-fasting/
     
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  2. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    It's semantics really but I'd say that IF and TRF are the same thing and that Extended Fasting (EF) is longer than 24 hours.
    I intermittent fast daily (never eat before 1 pm at the earliest) which is exactly the same as a 18:6 TRF pattern Eating between 1 and 7 pm.
    That is how it is viewed by almost everybody else in the world of fasting.
    As you say Attia isn't a fan so why listen to his specifications.. ?
     
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  3. Larissima

    Larissima Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    He's a big fan of IF and longer fasting, but not of regular Calorie Restriction, a la Taylor, as he thinks it's difficult to sustain.

    I agree, it's just semantics, but it somehow feels clearer in my mind.
     
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  4. bulkbiker

    bulkbiker Type 2 · Oracle

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    Sorry misunderstood your statement that he doesn't agree with caloric restriction and thought you meant he didn't agree with extended fasting.. mea culpa. I haven't listened to his stuff much.
     
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  5. chrestomanci

    chrestomanci Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Since adopting a LCHF diet I have been amazed how effective it has been in regulating my appetite. In the last 2 months I have done one 9 day fast, two 3 day fasts and the rest of the time, OMAD. It feels so very different to caloric restriction: sometimes I feel mildly peckish but never hungry. (I drink plenty of water throughout the day and take a multivitamin.)
     
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  6. Winnie53

    Winnie53 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I think time restricted feeding (TRF) is a better description. I'm not sure what I'm doing yet.

    I'm in ketosis most of the time and I started TRF in March - alternating between eating 2 times a day or 3, sometimes 1. I did a 40 hour fast a few weeks ago, but with the warmer weather and higher humidity, which really slows me down, I'm not as enthusiastic at the moment. Donating blood 5 weeks ago didn't help. Will not do that again when I'm in the middle of an inflammatory bowel disease flare and bleeding already. Had a CBC done a few days ago, and my results are slightly lower but similar to what they were a month or so prior to the beginning of my IBD flare.

    So far I've lost 10 of the 18 pounds I regained after losing 26 pounds in 2015 on the keto diet. Happy about that. Continuing to walk 1 to 2 times a day to keep my glucose levels down. I'm continuing to eat a variety of nutritionally dense proteins, fats, and non-starchy carbs which are rich in fiber, and taking my nutritional supplements. It's slow, but working. Most of my lab results are in the optimal range. Liver and kidneys are all fabulously happy. A1c is bouncing around between 6 and 5.8 (40 and 42) though. Definitely would like to see that lower. I'll get there. :)

    @chesteromanci am impressed by your 9 day fast. Wow.

    I'd like to go longer next time, but not sure if I can do it without taking time off from work. When you did your long fast, were you staying close to home or were you out and about and working? Curious too as to why you're fasting? Do you have health goals?
     
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  7. AloeSvea

    AloeSvea Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Hi @Winnie53. My longest fast was 10 days. I can't imagine working, period, and certainly not with other human beings :), whilst on an extended fast. But folks are different. I'm quite expressive, and can be grumpy, and irritable, but more likely these days to - at the very least - lament diabetes and my hunger during such treatments. And who else wants to listen to that?!

    So it really depends on your personality and how you interact with others, how expressive you are, how much energy you need for your work, and getting to and fro work, and how much brain power and/or physical power you need to use, imho.

    Also how solid your contract is? :). I do a lot of temp work, so absolutely - I must be sweet tempered to be asked to do the work again, let alone come in the next day. Herr Svea often jokes about how everyone in his office knew when the fasting days were of an IFer at his work, due to his, ah, tetchier moods and responses. (Hungry people can be irritable people.) The IFing co-worker said he made sure he IFed on work days, in order to save his family and friends from him during the weekend. Well, you can see where I am going with these musings...
     
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  8. Winnie53

    Winnie53 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    That's good to know AloeSvea. When I did my 40 hour fast, I didn't go for a walk, or drive, but I do have 4 days off each week, so perhaps I could do a 3 day fast. Not sure. I need to gain more experience. I don't work with the public but fear I might become light headed and create a scene. Not the type of attention I'd want at work. ;)
     
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  9. AloeSvea

    AloeSvea Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I'm pleased we are discussing this @Winnie53, and yes having wee chuckles over it, to boot :).

    I do seriously believe it is an important part of the fasting discussion - how it can affect one's mood, one's interpersonal relationships (personal and work). It's good to get it out there. If you plan for it, then you can minimise its negative impact on your relationships with fellow humans :).

    And to be noted - I am not talking about making a scene - just showing irritability, or, even, which has happened to me in an office situation as a temp - having a 'resting b**** face' (thanks to my 20s daughter to help me label it correctly) when focusing on computer work - to an extent that I was called into a private tete a tete in order to talk about how happy I was in that workspace! As in if you are not happy - p*** off! Yes, I was surprised. (And I really liked that workplace.) I hadn't known up to that point that I had a resting b**** face! Probably made more b****y when fasting - but I didn't tell them that of course.

    Dr Fung has said it is best to keep word of IFing and periods of non-eating to yourself in the workplace (sorry I can't reference it due to time restraints - I am pulling it out of my memory right now, but I think it was in one of his excellent blog entries, or maybe his excellent book on fasting? Quite likely) - as many of your coworkers will not understand it. And I will say especially in relation to metabolic disorders, which many do not understand. I agree with him. I mentioned, on another temp job in a school, with someone who was a nutritional expert, as in trained and teaching it etc, that I was carbohydrate intolerant, and eating Keto. She then asked me if I had problems with my bowel movements due to lack of fibre (her theory, not mine), as this was, according to her, a major problem with Keto. She went into shock when I said I had been eating this way for at least three years.

    And, no, I was not happy about talking to her about my bowel movements. (I mean - I am an open person - but really!!!) (I just said it was absolutely not a problem, and that was as far as I went.) (It isn't! Can't understand why it would be.)

    When it comes to ideas around ways of eating, and with ways of not eating, we are living in interesting times. To put it mildly. Workplaces are often a platform where this becomes obvious. So best to keep as much as you can that is not about medication, which everyone understands, to yourself? Probably - yes. Especially if you do not have a secure contract and/or are relying on goodwill for continued work.



     
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  10. Winnie53

    Winnie53 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I'm still hoping to hear back from @chrestomanci I'm curious as to how fasting for 9 days affected her ability to function on a daily basis.

    Very impressed you were able to do a 10 day fast AloeSvea. I think if I did a long fast I'd schedule time off from work because while most of my work is done sitting at my desk, I'm up and moving around part of the day, sometime moving boxes. My co-workers are very fun and upbeat. I don't think I'd be pleasant to be around while fasting. On my bad days, I can be a bit of a grump.

    I'm really not sure how to build a relationship with our local nutritionists. They seem more focused on managing their diabetes clients' insulin and medication use, which is good if you need that support - (I think the nutritionists are much better at it than the physicians). I just wish they were more knowledgeable about LCHF, keto, and perhaps time restricted feeding. Diabetes is a game changer when it comes to eating. It would be so good to have their support and guidance, but they've got to rethink their recommendations regarding starches and sugar.

    Three days a week, I eat two meals a day. On the other four days, I try to eat two meals with a snack in between to up my calorie and fiber intake. All in an 8 hour window. A favorite snack is steamed artichokes with butter and a side of raw nuts this time of year.

    A challenge for me is eating a varied diet. 4 days a week I eat a breakfast of eggs, vegetables, and cheese. The other 3 days, I eat a lunch that includes some type of animal based protein with a soup or salad, a carrot or another raw vegetable, sometime a small amount of beet salad, fruit or berries, and raw nuts. I have dinner 7 days a week, almost always animal based protein with vegetables, and a small amount of fruit or berries afterward. A favorite this time of year is heavy cream, shaved chocolate, berries, and raw nuts (which is not helping my weight loss efforts this month).

    AloeSvea, how has intermittent fasting or TRF affected your glucose levels? And how long have you been doing it?

    Larissima my husband would love it if I read the Circadian Code book. I just checked and it's getting good reviews. Did you make any changes after reading it? Have they been helpful? My husband is so determined to avoid blue light at night he wears glasses with red lenses to bed. I drive him a bit crazy because if I wake up and can't fall back asleep, I'll find a lecture on YouTube to listen to via my phone which exposes me briefly to blue light.
     
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  11. kokhongw

    kokhongw I reversed my Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    That is probably why the success of carbs lite, fats friendly, insulin lowering lifestyle is not down to will power.

    Solutions that is dependent on will power are not sustainable for many people....
     
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  12. chrestomanci

    chrestomanci Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Sorry about my delay in getting back to you guys!
    I was diagnosed type 2 in early May and my goal in fasting is to get my blood sugar levels to behave! (Long term).
    I have been reading Dr Jason Fung's books on fasting and doing my own research also on how to do it safely.

    My fasting came out of the keto way of eating's amazing ability to regulate hunger and adapt your body to burn fat for energy. I started with IF and progressed to longer fasts. My 9 day fast was a good experience, so much energy, mental clarity, no desire for food. My work improved because of this and people commented on how well I looked. I had moments of elation.

    Around mealtimes I psychologically felt I wanted to eat but it was just habit, I wasn't actually hungry.
    My partner was very supportive and says I wasn't at all grumpy! I took electrolytes throughout the day and was very careful with refeeding after the fast ended. I stopped because we were going to a friend's wedding in a few days and I didn't want to be the wierdo in the corner sipping water while everyone else tucked into the wedding breakfast.

    I do IF all the time now when I'm not doing extended fasts. My Hba1c is one week away now so will let you know how it's affected my blood sugar levels.

    Hope you're all doing well :D
     
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  13. chrestomanci

    chrestomanci Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree. I've been insulin resistant for at least 20 years and trying to lose weight on low fat diets never worked for me for long. Keto is the only thing that has worked for me (I know it doesn't suit everyone though). I think it's so powerful for many people with blood sugar/ high insulin problems.
     
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  14. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    well, from the many posters on here, including me, we know that bit isnt accurate.
     
  15. Larissima

    Larissima Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I haven't acquired blue-light blocking glasses as yet, but my bedside light is red LED (ooh-aah missus!). Also, I've moved my first coffee of the day to 10am, therefore reducing the window of ingesting anything except water to 10 hours max. I was surprised to read that even black coffee/tea count, because they still stimulate gastric juices, hormones etc. and wake up the digestive system. My actual feeding window is more commonly 4-6 hours.
    BTW, I leave my phone outside the bedroom, and have no problem falling back asleep if I wake up at night, unlike my OH...
     
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  16. Larissima

    Larissima Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, do you mean that neither fasting nor daily caloric restriction (I myself put it a bit clumsily in the OP) are necessary for regaining health? Or one, but not the other?
     
  17. lucylocket61

    lucylocket61 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    both. some on here regain and maintain normal blood glucose levels and have not fasted, some on here have regained normal blood glucose levels without calorie restriction. Neither are necessary to regain our health.

    Others have fasted, others have restricted calories, and that has worked for them.

    I am highlighting that we are all different and suggesting that certain things are necessary for regaining health. So basically, I am disagreeing with Satchin Panda that fasting etc is necessary for all, which is what I am assuming is implied by the quote below.

     
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  18. Winnie53

    Winnie53 Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    lucylocket61, I agree, our needs are individual. What works well for me might not for you.

    I've been on the low carb/ketogenic diet for 4 years now. It's worked very well for me, but experimenting with TRF and fasting has been additionally helpful.

    Did you try or have a bad experience with time restricted feeding or fasting? Or are you taking medications that would make it more challenging for you to try it?
     
  19. Larissima

    Larissima Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I see. I suppose he (Peter Attia) means for all who still exhibit signs of continuing metabolic derangement. I'll have to rewatch the video clip. But you make a good point that we are all different, and not everyone will need to push as far. I'm afraid I'm not in that group!
     
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  20. AloeSvea

    AloeSvea Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    @Winnie53, your question "AloeSvea, how has intermittent fasting or TRF affected your glucose levels? And how long have you been doing it?"

    Answering (currently wearing my blue-light block-out reading glasses for computer work - they do feel easier on the eyes actually) - all kinds of not-eating and periods of time eating, and smaller amounts eating, affect my insulin level, as in lowering it to a healthier or healthy level, (as a 'SIRD' I get my C-peptide tested along with my HBA1c), and my blood glucose levels lower to a healthier or a healthy level.

    The healthy levels are not sustained for any length of time, much to my intense disappointment. But I am pleased to have been in 'at prediabetic levels' remission for four and a half years.


    In context - I have been some kind of low-carb eating for four and a half years (diagnosis five years ago). I am normal weighted, instigated almost immediately on even the moderate carbing I began with, let alone the low-carbing I have been eating for four years.

    But, and it's a big but, in order to have insulin and glucose levels at a normal healthy level I would have to be skinny, or at least - very lean indeed, and I just cannot do that. I have given it a decent try a couple of times, so it is not from want of trying.

    If only I didn't have to eat! If I could just not eat my diabetes would be resolved. But then, alas, so would my life. Now there is a catch! :arghh::). (I actually love eating, and love the socialising of eating with others. It's just the type two I don't love :inpain::).)
     
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