Inflammation and Diet

[ButtterflyLady]

I'm quite happy to keep paying for Co-Q10 supplements as I've proved by a start/stop/start again experiment of n=1 that it controls my blood pressure. Since every BP medication tried gives me either upper GI issues or headaches, I'd rather take that and pay for it myself. I don't really care if it's placebo effect or not - it works.

I agree, as long as you yourself are funding it, it doesn't matter if it's a placebo effect or not, as long as it works. I take it you get regular BP checks and kidney function tests to make sure you don't have high BP that is doing damage.

 

[AndBreathe]

I agree with doing our own reading and investing in ourselves, and not delegating responsibility for our health. I'm not sure why you said that, as I wasn't implying differently.

I was referring to a process of thinking about the knowledge/information we access when we do our reading. What evidence did they base their claim on? Is there just anecdotal evidence? Have they done research? How was it designed? Was it independent? What sort of journal was it published in? How long ago? Has the research been replicated by others? Are there meta-reviews? Often there is no scientific evidence behind a website's recommendation for a supplement. What do we do then?

Likewise, for women of a certain age, with no CV disease, there is little, robust, empirical research, using a decent proportion of female participants to support the prescription of statins, but it doesn't stop it happening.

But, as they say in the Dragon's Den, "I'm out." It was never my purpose to derail this thread or go into battle this. I have important shredding to get on with today.

 

[ButtterflyLady]

This is my personal opinion so the only evidence I have is personal experience of which I have 57 years. I don't intend to quote everything I have experienced in that time to justify what is only my opinion, but here's a couple of reasons I say that.

My mum was offered Thalidomide whilst she was pregnant, the only reason she refused it was that she didn't suffer from sickness at all. If she had been sick I would have preferred her to take natural remedies such as ginger or peppermint. It was said at the time that the drug had been properly tested.

I suffered from atrial fibrillation for 2 periods of around 2 years each. I had 4 short stays in hospital for treatment and was on some very potent drugs. One of these has potential side effects of blindness and death. I agreed to take it because I was so breathless I couldn't bend to put shoes on or walk a very short distance without having to stop for breath. Since than I have discovered that when my heart goes out of rhythm all I need to do is take a dose of a magnesium supplement. This is a supplement of something my body needs and is lacking. If I'm lacking a nutrient then no amount of drugs will give me that so they won't cure me whilst a supplement may.

My supplements were recommended by a qualified naturopath.

No doubt you believe supplements to be better than drugs based on your personal experience, and that is fine. We're all entitled to our opinions and we don't have to justify them to anyone. However I was curious about such a strongly worded statement as "Supplements have to be better than drugs surely?".

Anyone can cite the case of Thalidomide, in which it is clear that the drug was unsafe, despite being approved for use in pregnancy. However, the systems in use today are far more reliable... of course there is no guarantee that it couldn't happen again, and indeed, every few years there seems to be a drug that causes severe harm or death in a small number of people and the drug is withdrawn. There are thousands of drugs used safely and effectively by millions of people. On the whole, the system works. Non-drug products can also maim and kill, but we don't hear much about that because anyone can sell these products without the same level of oversight as drugs have.

I know very little about cardiac care but does your doctor agree that all you need to stay healthy is to take magnesium, and that magnesium would have been enough during that earlier time, without any of those other drugs? I think if your belief about it is correct, then you are very lucky to have found something that works for you. I think if it was the case that all the people with that condition could be treated with magnesium alone and never needed the other drugs, then all the cardiologists would be testing and prescribing it as a first line treatment and the other drugs would no longer need to be prescribed for that condition.

I consider magnesium to be a pharmaceutical product anyway, because it is produced by drug companies, can be measured and quality assured like a drug, and is subsidised and provided in hospitals and (in NZ, the publicly funded pharmacy services). I don't treat it as a "supplement" like, for example, ginger, peppermint, chromium, or CoQ10. I'm pretty sure there is scientific research evidence about magnesium, as it affects a number of body systems.

"Supplements have to be better than drugs surely?" is not a statement that can be applied across the board. Many drugs are the only effective treatment for certain conditions. In some cases, supplements have a beneficial effect, but it is not as strong as a drug. In other cases, a supplement has a negative effect, especially if taken with a certain drug.

 

[Indy51]

I agree, as long as you yourself are funding it, it doesn't matter if it's a placebo effect or not, as long as it works. I take it you get regular BP checks and kidney function tests to make sure you don't have high BP that is doing damage.

I have my own BP machine and check at least once a day, sometimes more, but also checked regularly by GP. I also have regular kidney function tests as part of my diabetes review - kidney and liver tests are done at least once a year. I think we antipodeans are very lucky in our health care systems - don't know about NZ, but in Australia we have none of the hassles of getting testing strips that seem more and more prevalent in the UK.

 

[Jaylee]

I consider magnesium to be a pharmaceutical product anyway, because it is produced by drug companies, can be measured and quality assured like a drug, and is subsidised and provided in hospitals and (in NZ, the publicly funded pharmacy services). I don't treat it as a "supplement" like, for example, ginger, peppermint, chromium, or CoQ10. I'm pretty sure there is scientific research evidence about magnesium, as it affects a number of body systems.

Is it not a naturally occurring eliment then? which manifests in food, & should be part of a healthy dietary balance? Surely the pharma industry is just exploiting a natural resource concentrated in areas such as China, Russia, & Canada..? Are the pharma companies not just doing the same thing under licence & distributing through the health service as a "suplimental" treatment?
I had no idea there was a "copywrite" on magnesium..?

 

[ButtterflyLady]

Likewise, for women of a certain age, with no CV disease, there is little, robust, empirical research, using a decent proportion of female participants to support the prescription of statins, but it doesn't stop it happening.

But, as they say in the Dragon's Den, "I'm out." It was never my purpose to derail this thread or go into battle this. I have important shredding to get on with today.

I don't know much about statins because I dont need them, and fortunately I've read enough about them on this forum that if they were ever suggested, it would take a lot to convince me to use them. I don't think they're appropriate unless the benefits clearly outweigh the risks, and I hope I am never in that position. So, I'm not aware of what the evidence base is like for women vs men etc, and I'll take your word for it. It's well known that most drug research is carried out on men, and thankfully this is starting to change. I assume that doctors recommend statins for those women based on the evidence for men.

Anyway, I don't see how that point means we shouldn't try to find the best evidence about treatments before we agree to them.

I also don't see how a constructive, polite discussion is now seen as going "into battle". I just wanted to discuss the ways we can get the best information on treatments, but if that's not important to you, that's ok.

 

[zand]

@CatLadyNZ Let's turn the question around. Would you really prefer to take a drug when a supplement might help you instead?

Does my doctor agree that magnesium helps me with my heart condition? No. Doctors are generally trained in medicine and surgery not nutrition. No NHS doctor has wanted to listen. My naturopath originally prescribed it because she did a test which found I was deficient in it. I was already having heart problems back then which was what alerted her to the possibility of a magnesium deficiency. I know that magnesium works for me because within 5-10 minutes of taking the supplement my heart beat is back to normal again. This had happened maybe 40 - 50 times since my operation 2 years ago. Taking just one dose of magnesium each time the AF occurred has enabled me to stop taking warfarin and a beta blocker (with my GP's consent)

OK, my statement 'supplements have to be better than drugs' was aimed at the topic in this thread - inflammation and diet. I would personally not take drugs for inflammation problems rather than have a healthy diet with or without supplements. If diet, exercise, supplements didn't work then I would turn to drugs as a last resort.

I'm out of this thread now too as my only knowledge re inflammation is that since I started following LCHF my joint pains have greatly diminished. Anecdotal yes, but it's personal so it is worth so much more to me than any study conducted by a drugs company.

 

[ButtterflyLady]

Is it not a naturally occurring eliment then? which manifests in food, & should be part of a healthy dietary balance? Surely the pharma industry is just exploiting a natural resource concentrated in areas such as China, Russia, & Canada..? Are the pharma companies not just doing the same thing under licence & distributing through the health service as a "suplimental" treatment?
I had no idea there was a "copywrite" on magnesium..?

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. Lots of drugs are made from naturally occurring elements. These elements are also present in food but with some disorders the body requires much more than we can get from food.

Drug companies can hold a patent on the process by which they take the raw ingredient(s) and turn them into a pill that people can use. Many drugs are sold generically after a patent expires. Many drugs have been around for decades and didn't need to go through the expensive approval process, which puts companies off getting a drug approved if they can't patent the manufacturing process.

There are large and small drug companies, and large and small supplement companies, and a certain proportion of the supplements industry is owned by large drug companies. It is a myth that "Big Pharma" is only interested in profiting from patentable drugs and not generic ones. A myth that supplement sellers like to promulgate to enhance the acceptance of their products, as they are competing with drug companies that have to get a return on the cost of research needed to get approval. Supplement companies don't need to spend as much money on research, so their profit margins are greater than drug companies'. Which is why big drug companies like to buy up supplement companies.

 

[zand]

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. Lots of drugs are made from naturally occurring elements. These elements are also present in food but with some disorders the body requires much more than we can get from food.

Drug companies can hold a patent on the process by which they take the raw ingredient(s) and turn them into a pill that people can use. Many drugs are sold generically after a patent expires. Many drugs have been around for decades and didn't need to go through the expensive approval process, which puts companies off getting a drug approved if they can't patent the manufacturing process.

There are large and small drug companies, and large and small supplement companies, and a certain proportion of the supplements industry is owned by large drug companies. It is a myth that "Big Pharma" is only interested in profiting from patentable drugs and not generic ones. A myth that supplement sellers like to promulgate to enhance the acceptance of their products, as they are competing with drug companies that have to get a return on the cost of research needed to get approval. Supplement companies don't need to spend as much money on research, so their profit margins are greater than drug companies'. Which is why big drug companies like to buy up supplement companies.

Do you work for a drugs company?

 

[ButtterflyLady]

Do you work for a drugs company?

What a strange question. No, I'm just a person with T2 diabetes who enjoys learning new things about health.

People seem to have a lot of negative beliefs about drug companies, which I don't think are warranted. Like I said, millions of people benefit from drugs every day. We are lucky to live at a time in history when more diseases than ever can be treated with modern medicine. We live in free market economies where products are manufactured by companies and regulated by government. I don't fancy the alternatives.

It's late at night here so I will respond to your other post tomorrow.

 

[poshtotty]

With the greatest respect, @CatLadyNZ this thread is not and never has been about drugs or the affect of medicines on disease. It is about whether diet has an effect on inflammation, and whether there is any evidence to back it up.

I'm very surprised that it has been allowed to be derailed so frequently when the subject could have been a valuable resource for those who actually do want to be proactive and accept responsibility for managing and controlling their condition with a change of diet and lifestyle

 

[Jaylee]

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. Lots of drugs are made from naturally occurring elements. These elements are also present in food but with some disorders the body requires much more than we can get from food.

Drug companies can hold a patent on the process by which they take the raw ingredient(s) and turn them into a pill that people can use. Many drugs are sold generically after a patent expires. Many drugs have been around for decades and didn't need to go through the expensive approval process, which puts companies off getting a drug approved if they can't patent the manufacturing process.

There are large and small drug companies, and large and small supplement companies, and a certain proportion of the supplements industry is owned by large drug companies. It is a myth that "Big Pharma" is only interested in profiting from patentable drugs and not generic ones. A myth that supplement sellers like to promulgate to enhance the acceptance of their products, as they are competing with drug companies that have to get a return on the cost of research needed to get approval. Supplement companies don't need to spend as much money on research, so their profit margins are greater than drug companies'. Which is why big drug companies like to buy up supplement companies.

Thanks for your reply! My questions were just seeking a reaffirmation of my comment which was most eloquently put in your reply..
I prefer your balanced summary better!

 

[donnellysdogs]

My consultant was willing for me to give lipoic and evening primrose for pains in legs... Not peripheral neuropathy, no tablets such as gabapentin, amitrp, dulox etc got rid of the pain....all they did was send me off my head.

The miracle cure in my case was stopping artificial anything... But I also still take the evening primrose and lipoic.... I started all at the same time so will carry on being artificial food/drink free and taking the supplements.

I see my consultant tomorrow. She will not believe the difference this has made.

I really feel as I did 20 years ago. I only wish they had told me about the intolerance in 2003...

Yes... Diet (and supplements) have a huge affect...

 

[Brunneria]

@CatLadyNZ

I am very amused by your constant challenging of others to back their personal experiences with evidence that you will accept. Then you reject their personal experiences because they have no scientific backing.

Yet you do not present evidence of your own - only opinions and judgements on the unreliability of other posters' experiences..

It seems a pity. I would love to hear your positive experiences of how your reliance on science has benefited your health - especially if it fits the thread theme of inflammation.

 

[Gravity-Carb]

@Bunneria

Thank you for your experience of weighy and apathy or IR due to decreased exercise and/or increased trigger carbs.
Since cutting out gluten, and really limiting my overall carb load, and being aware of my everyday activity load, I am starting to notice the lack of pain and swelling in my finger joints in the morning (after x-rays and blood tests I was assured no RA), and the painful clicking from my sternum n ribs on the left side I've had for years has just stopped. Thoracic spine stiffness n dull ache has also gone. Also the hyper-pigmentation on the lower half of my face is starting to fade.

However I still have intermittent hip pain.
I am going to look at 'inflammation' even more now....

As for the medicine vs naturopath/antidotal evidence, it is not as simple as 1 size fits all. In an ideal world, our GP's would have more time per patient and as an individual we would have an ideal central locus of control. Working together with pharmacists, nutritionists et al we would have such tailored medical care it would be beautiful. Although unless we win a lottery, this is not accessible for most people.

I am quite an over thinker, also a carer for a parent with multiple progressive illness, I also have a son. I want to do all I can to be as healthy for as long as possible. That includes taking the medication if that will enable me to achieve my aim, however I am fully aware that I need to be willing to change my lifestyle to attain my goal as living as I was got me to this point. That is harder, for me, than sole reliance on my GP practice to keep me healthy.

In this day in age I do think I have to keep questioning my priorities. My health has to be the top otherwise I will be **** at all the other roles I have.

So my budget and living circumstances at present do not allow for organic only, but it does allow for decent ingredients and time to make my own food, and monitor my own health choices. Long term stress in this day in age is such a normal occurrence that I didn't recognise the havoc it plays in my body. High cortisol levels attack our bodies in a unique individual way...

Well I could go on and on like ariston, but I think we have to be flexible in our own healthy approach and be respectful of other's choices as what may work for another, may not work for you n vice versa.

Just my 2 pence worth....

 

[Winnie53]

I suffered from atrial fibrillation for 2 periods of around 2 years each. I had 4 short stays in hospital for treatment and was on some very potent drugs. One of these has potential side effects of blindness and death. I agreed to take it because I was so breathless I couldn't bend to put shoes on or walk a very short distance without having to stop for breath. Since than I have discovered that when my heart goes out of rhythm all I need to do is take a dose of a magnesium supplement. This is a supplement of something my body needs and is lacking. If I'm lacking a nutrient then no amount of drugs will give me that so they won't cure me whilst a supplement may.

My supplements were recommended by a qualified naturopath.

Zand, my husband has been living with atrial fibrillation since 2000. The medication helped, of course, but, in 2005, after quite a few cardioversions, he had a Catheter ablation which didn't work, because the problem area was too close to one of the heart nodes. In 2006, he was started on the medication Tikosyn, which requires a three day hospital stay because eventually it stops the heart and they have to have a crash cart available in case the heart doesn't restart on it's own. That medication helped too, but he continued to have intermittent episodes. In 2010, he began searching for additional options. He came across a website founded by a retired gentleman who has atrial fibrillation, and a Ph.D. in chemical engineering, http://www.afibbers.org/. There he learned how to use magnesium, and, like you, has benefitted greatly.

My husband's cardiologist has always been supportive of his use of magnesium.

 

[andcol]

I agree, as long as you yourself are funding it, it doesn't matter if it's a placebo effect or not, as long as it works. I take it you get regular BP checks and kidney function tests to make sure you don't have high BP that is doing damage.

Actually who cares who is funding it if it is having the desired effect!

 

[zand]

Zand, my husband has been living with atrial fibrillation since 2000. The medication helped, of course, but, in 2005, after quite a few cardioversions, he had a Catheter ablation which didn't work, because the problem area was too close to one of the heart nodes. In 2006, he was started on the medication Tikosyn, which requires a three day hospital stay because eventually it stops the heart and they have to have a crash cart available in case the heart doesn't restart on it's own. That medication helped too, but he continued to have intermittent episodes. In 2010, he began searching for additional options. He came across a website founded by a retired gentleman who has atrial fibrillation, and a Ph.D. in chemical engineering, http://www.afibbers.org/. There he learned how to use magnesium, and, like you, has benefitted greatly.

My husband's cardiologist has always been supportive of his use of magnesium.

Well I said I was out of this thread, but I hope @Brunneria doesn't mind me coming back into it to answer your post. Thanks so much for that link. I will look at it again when I am more awake, it's not the easiest site to read, but it is very informative.

I had 3 cardioversions (one worked for a while) then a catheter ablation in 2012. I'm sorry your husband's one didn't work. Mine did and they used a new 'pin point' type of catheter on me (the old type was like a lasso) It took 6 hours and I took 5 months to fully recover from it.

 

[Indy51]

@Winnie53 Adding another Terry Wahls lecture here that may interest you:

It's one I hadn't seen before so got very excited when I ran across it in Youtube

 

[Winnie53]

Thanks Indy51. Will take a look at it today.

In my wanderings, I came across some information I'd not heard before that likely applies to me, perhaps you too, because we both have non-celiac gluten sensitivity. It's on "cross reactive compounds". For those like myself who continue to have chronic inflammation despite giving up gluten, this blog post by Nora Gedgaudas, "Cracking your food sensitivity code" is extremely interesting, to me at least... http://www.primalbody-primalmind.com/blog/page/2/

I was familiar with the term “molecular mimicry” but hadn't taken the time needed to learn about it more in depth. It was this presentation by Nora Gedgaudas in Australia in January 2013, that sparked my interest, as I hadn't heard the term "cross reactive compounds" before - (1st video is presentation, 2nd video is Q&A)... http://soulsessions.org/free/singleVid.php?id=34