Intermittent fasting: 14/10-16/8, 5:2, 24-hr fast, 20-hr fast

Brunneria said:

The hunger thing is my biggest issue with fasting.

It isnt really about whether i can endure the discomfort - of course i can - for a while.
But historically, every attempt i have made to use hunger as a diet-tool (in 30+ years of dieting) has ended with disaster, and falling into a feeding frenzy.

I've experienced every stage - the buoyant fasting high, the slight spaciness, the fervent enthusiasm, the sense of revulsion at the sight of an egg yoke... But months or days later, my appetite ALWAYS slips out of control, with a vengeance. Rebound. End up bigger than the start.

So i have eventually learned that slower, gentler, and sustainably is the only thing that my body actually responds to in a positive way (unfortunately, this revelation was AFTER i had messed up my metabolism and switched on my thrifty gene)

So I'm still checking out whether intermittent fasting works for my current body.

I have a theory, you see, that all those years that i 'skipped breakfast and feel fine' are what trained my body to create a silly-high dawn phenomenon.

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I like the sound of 'slower, gentler, and sustainably'.

And your words on the dawn phenomenon (DP) have been very helpful for me for sure as a fellow DPer - what a great thread going there!

So my challenge is, here, is it possible for me to be slow, gentle, and weight loss sustainable?- on an IF. I hope so.

Alas, for me, hunger is never gentle. Even when it just involves getting through most of the morning without eating. (I am sitting here dreaming of my boysenberry paleo muffin, which I will pop in the microwave and smear in butter, and eat with a lovely strong cup of coffee. I will have to wait another 2 and a half hours.) (And and but, I won't still be sitting here.)

Also, at the end of the week I am going to have to swap day for night again, cold and wet season for summer, switching global hemispheres, so that will be interesting to see how that affects my BG, my DP - and the IF! (Yes - it always does. Our rhythms are circadian rhythms - it links up with our exposure to light, which links up with hormones and so on, and in my experience, takes about a week for BG levels, including the DP. The only time when I have delightfully normal looking fasting blood glucose is after a VLCD, or when my body still thinks it's pre-dinner ie 5pm, at 6am, having the done the swap. ) This will be my first swapping day for night on an IF.

And I won't even try sticking to it whilst actually traversing the globe! Crossing all time zones is hard enough as a budget traveller like I am, without turning down the airplane food . That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!

buckley8219 said:

I fast regularly.

Just come off a 72 hour water only fast, my pump basal kept me between 4-5.5mmol right up until three hours ago, sugar dropped to 2.8mmol so I broke the fast with three glucose tabs, was a shame as I was hoping for five days.

I fast because it clears my head and keeps my relationship with food simpler.

Just made a bowl of salad, tomatoes, avocado, spinach, cucumber, peppers. Tasted like heaven on earth, usually I'd find it bland, boring and would be drowning it in dressing.

I think I'll be doing eat, stop eat long term. Eating within my macros five days a week and for two days a week eating nothing.

Find this is a really good way of dropping body fat and curbing over eating, carb munchies etc.

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Wow! Two days complete fasting a week? Cor! Yeah, now I am in summer again I know what you mean about a yummy bowl of salad.

And a double wow on the 2.8.

In terms of my own FBGs I am afraid I have too many variables going on to look at myself as a good IF experiment at the mo' - having just switched day for night. My experience with that is it takes about three days to a week for my liver to re-adjust to do that switcheroo - and the adjustment is not in a good way - as I have a liver that misreads (or whatever it is doing) my BG levels re the Dawn Phenon, so the pre-adaptation readings are comparatively quite good ones. Post-switcheroo I have had 2 FBGs in the low to mid 6% range, which is good for me, sadly, these days - having clocked up truly alarming FBGs. Also post-switcheroo it is easier to eat dinner earlier, and not be too hungry in the morning, at least it has for the past couple of days. I just let the airlines feed me during the 30 hours in and out of planes it took to cross the globe. I got a rather high post-meal reading in the mid 9s, while sitting there in a cramped long-haul flight, so I stopped taking my blood! (But gee, that tiramisu dessert was rather lovely...) Yeah, I'm not a paleo gal on long-haul flights, let alone an IF 15/9 one - I have a dream that one day there will be truly diet-and-exercise-diabetic friendly no added sugar with no wheat options onboard airplanes, not to mention restaurants and cafes! Sigh. I did flirt with the idea of totally fasting, as in just drinking water and tea and coffee for the nearly two day journey - but Mr Svea vetoed that one when I suggested it, lol, for obvious reasons. (Mood! As in mine, as in being a bad one. Affected by hunger, prompted by discomfort and lack of motion, and he having to be beside me all that way.)

Now that I am back home, as opposed to my transitory one, I also have my tape measure and my scales, and see that my long trip and one month on the road has me at 71 kg (5kg increase from April when I departed). (I wasn't sure if I should have trusted the scales I bought on the trip only a week or so ago) (turns out I could!) and I haven't got my old journals out for comparing my waist and hip measurement (as I measured those for the first time since the 5kg increase.) So now I know what all those post diet magazine articles and online are on about when they talk about how easy it is to regain weight lost on an extreme diet! Certainly is the case for me. Now I am normal weight again and not lean. (And HBA1c of around 44, and not 40.)

But did my crunch-less ab exercises, back doing the squats. Enjoying the salad and the fruit (as always). Hope my liver just finds it too difficult to dump a lot of BG overnight now it's switcherooed! Finds it easier to just stabilise instead....

And give my body a week to be a good IF experiment subject again...

buckley8219 said:

Not meaning to sound pious but I firmly believe that us westerners consume far too much food, we're conditioned to eat three, four meals a day, snacks, drinks. I don't think our biology has caught up with the abundance of food and calories we have available and choose to process on a daily basis. I also feel the obesity epidemic we face is evidence of this. We're socialised to "consume" constantly, for whose benefit I am not entirely sure.

I also think most do not know what real hunger is and often confuse hunger with being thirsty, stressed and emotional.

E.g "I'm starving I didn't have time for breakfast" often shouted in real distress in the office at 10 am or a non-diabetic complaining of "low blood sugar" when they've not had time for lunch.

I'm not aware if there are meta-studies available on the positive effects of long-term calorie restriction/intermittent fasting and I know we aren't rats or monkeys, or yeast... but "Calorie restriction without malnutrition has been shown to work in a variety of species, among them yeast, fish, rodents and dogs to decelerate the biological ageing process, resulting in longer maintenance of youthful health and an increase in both median and maximum lifespan.[1]"

My empirical sample of one has shown that I have, clearer skin, less brain fog, better blood glucose levels, greater energy, and carry less body fat when I fast regularly.

I'm also a bit of a masochist, so enjoy the challenge of fasting for 24 hours/48 hours and preparing meals for others whilst resisting the temptation of slyly popping ingredients in my gob when stood over the chopping board

As for the 2,8mmol, don't think that's that special for a Type 1 on insulin who tries to keep their BG between 4.0-5.5mol, it only takes a small slip up. Been walking around chatting and "feeling a bit low" at 1.2mmol and "LO". Whilst I've seen a Type 1 family member unconscious and unresponsive at 1.4mmol. I think this has more to do with how much insulin you have on board and how quick the drop is. In my MDI days, I once (or twice) used the wrong insulin and basal'd my bolus insulin. The drop and resulting low from that was a world away from being 2.8mmol with no insulin on board.

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You don't sound pious! But yes, different folk have different ways of looking at food, and fasting and so on. Certainly different experiences of hunger and so on. And yeah - low BG is just a long ago memory for me of a state I never even knew I was experiencing! I hear you re the type 1 experience and how it is different.

For me it is not about how much food, but the quality of food. (And I personally do feel hunger rather keenly. But I live with someone who absolutely doesn't - so see up close and personal differences like that.)

And I am really into the 'gut biome' thing that functional medical practitioners, researchers, writers and so on are talking a lot about these days. Fascinating stuff.

And of course - our hugely compromised food environment (added sugar, trans fats, toxins and so on).

buckley8219 said:

Yes,

I'm getting there with the organic stuff slowly.

I spent a while in the Czech Republic recently and ate my first truly organic meals, prepared by a chef who grew and raised all the ingredients organically on his family farm behind the restaurant.

Was amazed in the difference in flavours and quality of the raw ingredients. It was like I was tasting some of the vegetables for the first time ha.

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Ah yes. I've been discovering the delights of a greater variety of vegetables post diagnosis too, and especially since going paleo/Low carb. During my D-ND I even ate brussell sprouts - and I hate brussell sprouts, normally. (I woke up with a strong craving for them one day, and peaches, after seeing recipes including both a little before. I was blown away by the nutritents in brussel sprouts, when I looked them up online. Very high in Vitamin D, E, K, A, the B complex and that is just the beginning.)

As for the organics, I try to buy organic produce of the 'dirty dozen' - the fruits and vegetables that are particularly doused in pesticides and so on, but it all depends on the state of the bank account. But I am very into high quality meat and poultry, and eggs, and that includes animals that had as decent a life as possible - ie free range. Apart from ethical concerns, and health concerns - the taste difference is huge! I agree.

OK. Began experimenting with IFing routines in early June. Began a 15/9 in mid June. It's now late July. What has happened to my BGs?

The last three days have seen a return to the FBGs in the 5s and the low 6s I started to see post D-ND. I feel much relieved not to see the high 6s up to high 7s of just 10 days ago and previously for the last two months. I can only hope it stabilises. (I've never had the 4s and consistent low 5s that some T2s get on and post the Newcastle Program.)

I don't really know about real weight loss on the IF,due to the earlier lack of scales issue, and too many variables. But in the last 9 days since having my bathroom and scales back I have seen a 1kg drop. But again - could be due to any number of things.

I have been wondering about changing the fasting regimen. I really miss my first little breakfast! So I want to experiment with a couple of different regimens and see if I like them better than the current one.

1st experiment - 6:1. Yesterday I decided to try the not eating for a 24 hour period just once a week, so from Saturday 6pm (after an early dinner) to Sunday dinner at 6. I wondered if it would be easier to confine the hunger and difficulties I have with it to one day, rather than every morning.

Argh!

I broke the fast two hours early, and I probably ate not much less than what I normally would on a Sunday! just in a very confined period, due to the hunger. (Ate maybe 1,000 calories in a four hour period.) And for some of the day it was like being a sick person.

But, nice on the blood glucose levels. (Perhaps it was the four hour period thing, rather than the amount of food.) (And it was 'clean food' just very nutrient dense.) If I can get the BG improvement without weight loss I will be very happy! Will have to wait and see, once variables have been cut.

Really, I won't be a good test subject for another month - due to the earlier lack of scales on the 3 months away, changing hemispheres, rapidly changing seasons and eating patterns again. Changing global hemispheres and day for night can muck up FBGs - not in a bad way - it's good to off-put the liver from sugar dumps! - but not good for collecting data purposes.

Some great IF reading:

Experiments With Intermittent Fasting, BY DR. JOHN M. BERARDI WITH DR. KRISTA SCOTT-DIXON AND NATE GREEN
Nate Green is the 'test subject' (I believe!)
great tips:
http://www.precisionnutrition.com/intermittent-fasting/appendix-b

but all the chapters of this online book are really good. Full of info and really interesting reading of his own experiences with various IF.
http://www.precisionnutrition.com/intermittent-fasting/summary

And this particularly marvellous account of insulin raising food and IFing from this partner of a T1 diabetic, another one of these fabulous engineers (like Dr Bernstein) who gets into BG, also refers to Jason Fung who is hot on this trail for improving health outcomes/reversing T2D:
Optimising nutrition, managing insulin, by Marty Kendall
https://optimisingnutrition.wordpress.com

I haven't lost weight, after the initial 1kg loss, since being back in my own bathroom with the tried and truly scales.

But I am getting some abs from a new crunchless ab routine I am doing about two or three times a week, with a Jackie Warner dvd, and, my waist and hips have been shaved of a centimetre each. I was surprised by this! Even though I am consciously attempting to bring my BGs down with muscle gain, as well as weight loss for the now elusive 'personal fat threshold' re my liver and pancreas function.

My BGs seem to be going in waves - a few days of FBGs (which affect the whole day) in the high 6s and 7s, to a few days in mid to high 5s, to mid to high 6s.

The neuropathy in my feet is noticeable when my BGs are in the higher wave. As is a feeling of despondency!

But at least now I am having breakfast again, which I really like. And thinking ahead to my one day of fasting. Yes with a bit of trepidation. So I did some squats and felt better. (A walk also does the same thing. But the weather is grotty.)

Doing the 15/9, and now the 6:1 - I think about its sustainability for the rest of my life - so I am very keen to find a 'eat stop eat' rhythm that suits me.

Had my first FBG back in the low 5s, this morning (since it all went haywire from early May). I am super relieved to see my BG can be that low again, after sleep and my liver meet. (I hope I don't get too disappointed if this was a once-off.)

But I realise I am a terrible 'test subject', because I try out so many things at once, especially if I am very concerned about rising BG, as I am. Because I try all sorts of things at once, looking for the right thing for me. Which I guess is why I am not really a test subject, but a T2 diabetic using diet and exercise as her treatment method, and going for 'tight control'. I try anything that makes sense and might work! And even all in the same time frame.

But, after reading a current thread on fat fasting, I came to understand I had no idea what LCHF really was! (I thought I even ate like that sometimes, in a paleo-LCHF mix.) But I had no idea! I even realise that I had no idea what real low-carbing was! Because I am adverse to numbers and calorie and nutrient counting unless pressed, I didn't know the numbers, so didn't really get the carb differences between different foods. (And I love fruit, as a T2D with a sweet tooth who no longer eats lollies and ice cream - no wonder I didn't want to read the numbers on things like my beloved banana.) Now I realise I wasn't very low carb, but eat something between low and moderate carbs. And the 'high fat' in the HF was as high as 75%. (I thought Nora, the author of the book I am reading in my profile pic there, was just being a one-off interesting extremist.) Well, you live and learn!

So now I am reading up about LCHF for real this time, and during my discovery-day yesterday, watching docos and youtube and reading the keto diet blog amongst others, started upping my fat intake, lowering my carbs (only a half a baked apple with the two tablespoons of greek yoghurt), and I bought ketostix (they are relatively inexpensive), so I guess I am kinda serious about giving it a bash, along with IFing. Watching my protein intake (as it can be utilised as glucose by the bod), lowering the carbs, and upping the fat. Me and Mr Svea had a LOT of butter in our fish last night. And I cut just a bit of pear up for the salad, with generous amounts of olive oil. Even more than before.

Who knows if that is related to the lovely 5.3 FBG. (I never get 4s unless I am water fasting, after a couple of days. My metabolism is well bung.) Was it a freak incident? Is it after a couple of months of IF? Or all of the above? I'll keep on testing!

This morning I decided to give 5:2 a bash.

Why not try a bit of every IF regime? I am thinking. To truly figure out which one, if any , will be long-term sustainable. (OK, it is also because I don't want to not eat anything for the day, because I am looking forward to the chicken wings and salad for lunch!) (Yesterday's wonderful FBG not repeated :-(.)

My IFing is a gentle regime - so slower weight loss is in order, due to me wanting to keep active, and not be fainting and woozy all over the place. (That happens for me on no-food fasting for sure, and on a 500-600 calorie daily intake.) Means a higher calorie count - Low Calorie, as opposed to Very Low Calorie for me. I know what works better for me.

The good news is - I have lost a kilo in the last couple of weeks, and believe it was a kilo the month before (lack of reliable scale readings). And that is with some nice new ab muscles. (Thank you Jackie Warner! I think you are just fab!)

So, the goal of 1 kg a month on as gentle an IF regime as I can get and stand ;-) , seems to be working. And a goal for my HBAIc to be back down again to 40 (I can only dream of lower than that!) by January or February next year. It took one to two months to gain 5 kg (or more - who knows?) on holiday, and it might take six months to lose it again. Hmm. What a bore!

Talking about boring - I realise why I avoided the 5:2 regime. It involves calorie counting! And now, that I am getting really interested in real low-carbing and high fatting with LCHF, I am counting carbs. Groan! "I forgot how boring calorie counting WAS," I complained to Herr Svea this morning, as we started calculating, and turning American calorie king measurements into metric measurements we can understand, remembering how tedious and time consuming it was, back in the D-ND days. But a tiny tiny breakfast and I have consumed 260 cals, already and a whopping 22 gs of that was carbs. Cor!

I am deeply respectful of constant low-carbers. How hard is that?! (hard!) But good prep if I am going to do this soon - a 2 week-number of very low carbing to get into a ketogenic state, (the 'induction period' according to the Atkins folk) in prep for a future of winding the fat burning (as opposed to sugar burning) dial up and down (as Brunneria talked about it in a thread). I think I can handle that. Who knows?

bumblebee95 said:

I am fasting in line with Ramadan, over time my blood sugars have stabilised

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I would really like to hear more about this,Bumblebee, if you could share more details?

In terms of how long the fasting was/is (ie what 'in line with Ramadan' is and so on). What it entailed for you. How you felt etc -bodily and emotionally. And if you were able to keep your blood sugars stabilised after the fasting/Ramadan? ie was the effect longer term, if so, how longer term,etc...

That sounds like 'the warrior diet' IF for sure! And the eating heartily very healthy indeed. How long did you/do you you daylight fast for?

And I am very jealous of your not experiencing hunger . (My tummy is currently rumbling, and I am beginning to get a bit light-headed as I key - the usual story for me when Fing in the IFing, and it's afternoon tea time.)

My 'mother stuff' is being activated by the mention of previously stalled periods! Re your overall health. it's very good that it came back. I recently came across a gynaecologist writing about food and body composition (ok - dieting!) geared towards hormonal profiling for health, and I really liked it. I liked her too, which helps, so much I thought she was a diabetic! . (But I realise now she is just an ordinary holistic health type, which is still good.) But I recommend it to the young women in my life, as I wish I had come across something like that when I was young, even if it was just to understand the relationship between the different hormones, and nutrition and so on.
Anyway - this is the link for Dr Sara Gottfried's 'The Hormone cure' (sorry about the title). You might find it interesting?

http://www.amazon.com/The-Hormone-Cure-Energized-Naturally/dp/1451666950/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_y
and
http://www.amazon.com/The-Hormone-Reset-Diet-Metabolism/dp/0062316249 (this is the one I have actually read).

After yesterday's tryout of a 5:2 regime, I am pondering the different kinds of hungry-nesses, and which one is better than the other.

I didn't go Very Low Calorie (VLC), because I need to be moderately active, and for that I need at least 800 calories, preferably 1000. (I know this from my 2 months on a Deviated Newcastle Diet, as well as last weeks all day no food fast.) On 500-600 cals and no-food fasting I need to go to bed in the afternoon! and watch nutrition and health docos as support and inspiration. .

I'm out of practice with moderating my calorie intake, so I made a mistake with a paleo almond-cocoa ball, and went 140 calories over in total. And I wasn't willing to go lower-cal in my dinner. (Herr Svea roasted pork.) I will be more careful on the 2nd LC (low calorie) day. And get more bottles of carbonated water. And more herb tea! But I did walk for an hour during the day, and have a post-meal short walk (20 mins). Post evening meal exercise/walk I think is good for my FBG. (There is some science to back that idea up, and my experience last year going from HBAIc of 93 to 53 - I think it was - in 4 months supports that.) (But you know - too many variables as usual to really say.)

Indeed, my FBG was good this morning - in the low 5s. (Good for me.) I had a liver dump after, alas, which is what happened a couple of days ago too, but one step at a time. Gradual weight loss, and a couple of instances of good FBG - is a real positive for me. to spur me on. Enough to give me the push to go hungry another day this week, at least - and horrors - count calories.

The hunger? Argh. Mid afternoon is the worst. All the way up to dinner. I can cope with a very small dinner OK.

Today I am hoping that I.F. will not be a permanent aspect of my life, but the way to tweak if/when BGs go up, once if/when I can bring my HBA1c down again. (And for me, it looks like, in line with the 'Personal Fat Threshold' theory, these two things are closely related, ie weight increase=BG increase, along with a positive effect of low calorie or low or no digestive action on the malfunctioning hormones, organs and cells in T2D.) See it as intensive treatment. (Or part of an intensive treatment possibly including LCHF.) I guess 'we shall see' covers that hope!

It's very good to hear indeed Indy!

And 25g of carbs and under per meal sounds very reasonable. (now I know what that means. I think?!)

Me too re the personal fat threshold at lower end of normal. Lean is definitely the word. A shame because it is more of a challenge to get it down and keep it there, for me too. I guess so much of this sort of 'treatment' is about adaptation? And finding the regime that you can adapt to the easiest. Keeping non-diabetic BG levels most of the time, as you say, sounds real good to me too!

A sigh from me for now, as non-diabetic BG levels are still just a memory, and still just a goal, but very inspiring to read of your very successful IF regime.