Intermittent fasting: 14/10-16/8, 5:2, 24-hr fast, 20-hr fast

[AloeSvea]

Isn't that a great flow chart?! Looks wonderful on the fridge. I never did get appetite suppression, but I take it many do.

Herr Svea wants forum readers to know he fully supports we diabetics, and is doing so right now by preparing a hearty high fat low carb lunch for his own personal diabetic - he just wanted me to clean up the kitchen first for a change.

 

[AndBreathe]

Isn't that a great flow chart?! Looks wonderful on the fridge. I never did get appetite suppression, but I take it many do.

Herr Svea wants forum readers to know he fully supports we diabetics, and is doing so right now by preparing a hearty high fat low carb lunch for his own personal diabetic - he just wanted me to clean up the kitchen first for a change.

To be perfectly honest? I think the flow chart is fine for HCPs or other highly (if not hyper) motivated individuals. For an ordinary, lay person, there's too much info on one slide and too much jargon. I can completely understand how there could be a glazed look and a fast-track to change the subject.

If you wanted to use that concept with a lay persona, I'd "carve" the slide into probably 3 "layers" (rather than all the boxes and arrows). The layers would be demonstrating the effort required, functional impact and the result. At the highest, highest level, I'd be thinking aloing the lines of:

Effort = Adjust diet
Functional Impact: Altered digestive function and feeling of wellbeing
Result: Improved blood sugar scores, improved digestive function and weightloss, with overall increased feeling of wellbeing.

Now, to be fair to me, that's utterly from the hip, over under 5 minutes, but do you see what I mean? Of course, using the original with your doctor could be fine, if he has a decent understanding of the workings of our (diabetic) metabolisms. Obviously there are a 1000 potential steps of simplicity through to complexity in between my ultra simplified to the original.

 

[AloeSvea]

To be perfectly honest? I think the flow chart is fine for HCPs or other highly (if not hyper) motivated individuals. For an ordinary, lay person, there's too much info on one slide and too much jargon. I can completely understand how there could be a glazed look and a fast-track to change the subject.

If you wanted to use that concept with a lay persona, I'd "carve" the slide into probably 3 "layers" (rather than all the boxes and arrows). The layers would be demonstrating the effort required, functional impact and the result. At the highest, highest level, I'd be thinking aloing the lines of:

Effort = Adjust diet
Functional Impact: Altered digestive function and feeling of wellbeing
Result: Improved blood sugar scores, improved digestive function and weightloss, with overall increased feeling of wellbeing.

Now, to be fair to me, that's utterly from the hip, over under 5 minutes, but do you see what I mean? Of course, using the original with your doctor could be fine, if he has a decent understanding of the workings of our (diabetic) metabolisms. Obviously there are a 1000 potential steps of simplicity through to complexity in between my ultra simplified to the original.

Well, your reply got me chortling. I know exactly what you mean! I gave the chart to the layperson because I was super annoyed with them for questioning my VLCD as not actually having a solid basis in science. As that was the grounds that he was questioning my actions on. (I never cease to be amazed at the zeal and ignorance with which non-diabetic laypeople try and contribute to my lifestyle modifications! As well as methods of treatment.) It was actually meant to shut him up. (Which it did.) (Happily!)

Your chart adjustments look good! You should draw it up! I wouldn't, as a VLCD does not do it for me. (And I am not good at graphics, just downloading other people's.) But I absolutely understand that it does work for many.

I liked the chart for the great graphics. I liked the flow down to the happy purple oval of reduced blood glucose due to happier livers and pancreases. But I hear you on the words. If I ever use it for genuine communicative purposes outside of a HCP context, I would change the lingo, which agreed - actually refers to pretty basic things (like 'liver' and 'blood glucose') - yes indeed.

 

[AloeSvea]

Herr Svea, my resident scientist, says, "Since all three parts of the VLCD diet is interconnected, it doesn't really work to split them up. For instance in a flow chart you can see how the calorie and the carb restriction works together." So maybe just a 'translation' of the jargon words into everyday words for diabetics would do the trick? (For genuine communication purposes.)

 

[tuatara]

 

[Brunneria]

@tuatara

And i LOVE that you don't have medication on there - but maybe is should be. A bit.

I am, of course, talking in terms of non-insulin dependents!

 

[AloeSvea]

I would also add 'socialising' - that does wonders for my insulin sensitivity! Stick it between 'Sleep' and 'Exercise'?

 

[AndBreathe]

Well, your reply got me chortling. I know exactly what you mean! I gave the chart to the layperson because I was super annoyed with them for questioning my VLCD as not actually having a solid basis in science. As that was the grounds that he was questioning my actions on. (I never cease to be amazed at the zeal and ignorance with which non-diabetic laypeople try and contribute to my lifestyle modifications! As well as methods of treatment.) It was actually meant to shut him up. (Which it did.) (Happily!)

Your chart adjustments look good! You should draw it up! I wouldn't, as a VLCD does not do it for me. (And I am not good at graphics, just downloading other people's.) But I absolutely understand that it does work for many.

I liked the chart for the great graphics. I liked the flow down to the happy purple oval of reduced blood glucose due to happier livers and pancreases. But I hear you on the words. If I ever use it for genuine communicative purposes outside of a HCP context, I would change the lingo, which agreed - actually refers to pretty basic things (like 'liver' and 'blood glucose') - yes indeed.

My reassuringly stratospheric invoice is in the post.

 

[AndBreathe]

I like it.

If I were to use it, I would use the words, "Reduced Carb" as that is a true description, but less emotionally charged than "Low-Carb", in a similar way to "High-Fat". I might also be inclined to add something for the feelings of well-being some mention - particularly where frank symptoms have not been evident, but the reports are of just feeling "better than I've felt for years", or the like. Bit, I do like how uncluttered your slide is. If it's not simple to explain and execute, compliance goes down.

 

[AloeSvea]

I like it.

If I were to use it, I would use the words, "Reduced Carb" as that is a true description, but less emotionally charged than "Low-Carb", in a similar way to "High-Fat". I might also be inclined to add something for the feelings of well-being some mention - particularly where frank symptoms have not been evident, but the reports are of just feeling "better than I've felt for years", or the like. Bit, I do like how uncluttered your slide is. If it's not simple to explain and execute, compliance goes down.

I don't mind the 'low carb high fat' thingie. But you know - the Swedes are wonderfully straight talkers! No beating around the bush around here. And this is the land of LCHF food stores, LCHF options on cafe menus, and into dairy big time, as well as Dr Eenfeldt himself, after all. But I do get your point about 'reduced carb' - it just doesn't have the same ring to it, maybe?

I like that you want to include a feeling thing. One of the languages I speak, a bit of at least, uses 'well-being' in terms of contentment and 'being well' in the health sense rather closely or the same, as we know it is. And then makes 'Be well' the standard greeting, sign of agreement, and even parting words (like the lovely old 'fare thee well') rather freely. That's what is all about really, isn't it?

We want to be well, live well, feel good. (And reducing carbs is a good way for us to do it for sure.) As well as using the various kinds of fasting as a treatment method for us, if needs be.

Kia ora!

 

[tuatara]

I like it that sleep is recognised as so important.

 

[AndBreathe]

I don't mind the 'low carb high fat' thingie. But you know - the Swedes are wonderfully straight talkers! No beating around the bush around here. And this is the land of LCHF food stores, LCHF options on cafe menus, and into dairy big time, as well as Dr Eenfeldt himself, after all. But I do get your point about 'reduced carb' - it just doesn't have the same ring to it, maybe?

I like that you want to include a feeling thing. One of the languages I speak, a bit of at least, uses 'well-being' in terms of contentment and 'being well' in the health sense rather closely or the same, as we know it is. And then makes 'Be well' the standard greeting, sign of agreement, and even parting words (like the lovely old 'fare thee well') rather freely. That's what is all about really, isn't it?

We want to be well, live well, feel good. (And reducing carbs is a good way for us to do it for sure.) As well as using the various kinds of fasting as a treatment method for us, if needs be.

Kia ora!

My point about "high fat", "Low carb" or any of the other titles we use is that they are suggestive on a personal level. It's a bit like hot and cold. One man's high, low, hot is another's low, high and/or cold.

For example, I was shopping in our local supermarket yesterday morning. I didn't have a jacket on; only a lightweight shirt and very light cardigan, and I was chilled to the bone by the time I left the shop, especially as I was in the chilled dairy area for some of the time. Most folks were quite happy, and some with fewer layers on than me, but firstly, since I skinnied up, I do notice the chill a lot more, and secondly, I am acclimatised to warmer climates, due to my preference to avoid the worst of our weather by heading off to the Tropics. So my chilled is most people's just right. My "lovely and warm" has most people asking about aircon and fans.

Words like modified or reduced almost always generate a question back for clarification, but at that point you can engage in conversation rather than be facing a default setting of "I could never do low carb or high fat because it's bad for you". That blocking stance can take some teasing back from, whereas expressing it's up to the individual to set their own bar can be easier to swallow.

That's just my experience. I'd also say I feel it's even more important if it's in a presentation to a larger group not to lose a great chunk of the audience at the intro stage, or they can become disinterested and disruptive to the rest of the group, as they've already made their minds up before they have much chance of getting clarification.

That's my take anyway.

 

[AloeSvea]

My point about "high fat", "Low carb" or any of the other titles we use is that they are suggestive on a personal level. It's a bit like hot and cold. One man's high, low, hot is another's low, high and/or cold.

For example, I was shopping in our local supermarket yesterday morning. I didn't have a jacket on; only a lightweight shirt and very light cardigan, and I was chilled to the bone by the time I left the shop, especially as I was in the chilled dairy area for some of the time. Most folks were quite happy, and some with fewer layers on than me, but firstly, since I skinnied up, I do notice the chill a lot more, and secondly, I am acclimatised to warmer climates, due to my preference to avoid the worst of our weather by heading off to the Tropics. So my chilled is most people's just right. My "lovely and warm" has most people asking about aircon and fans.

Words like modified or reduced almost always generate a question back for clarification, but at that point you can engage in conversation rather than be facing a default setting of "I could never do low carb or high fat because it's bad for you". That blocking stance can take some teasing back from, whereas expressing it's up to the individual to set their own bar can be easier to swallow.

That's just my experience. I'd also say I feel it's even more important if it's in a presentation to a larger group not to lose a great chunk of the audience at the intro stage, or they can become disinterested and disruptive to the rest of the group, as they've already made their minds up before they have much chance of getting clarification.

That's my take anyway.

I hear you. Good points all.

 

[lizdeluz]

My point about "high fat", "Low carb" or any of the other titles we use is that they are suggestive on a personal level. It's a bit like hot and cold. One man's high, low, hot is another's low, high and/or cold.

For example, I was shopping in our local supermarket yesterday morning. I didn't have a jacket on; only a lightweight shirt and very light cardigan, and I was chilled to the bone by the time I left the shop, especially as I was in the chilled dairy area for some of the time. Most folks were quite happy, and some with fewer layers on than me, but firstly, since I skinnied up, I do notice the chill a lot more, and secondly, I am acclimatised to warmer climates, due to my preference to avoid the worst of our weather by heading off to the Tropics.

That's my take anyway.

(Off the point, but... .... by the way, why is there so much cold air in the chilled dairy areas of supermarkets? Where is all that cold air leaking away to? It's like not bothering to close the fridge door in the kitchen. Customers hurry away so it's not doing much for sales. Staff have to pile on gloves and woolly jumpers under their overalls. Barmy.)

 

[AloeSvea]

(Off the point, but... .... by the way, why is there so much cold air in the chilled dairy areas of supermarkets? Where is all that cold air leaking away to? It's like not bothering to close the fridge door in the kitchen. Customers hurry away so it's not doing much for sales. Staff have to pile on gloves and woolly jumpers under their overalls. Barmy.)

Lol. Quite right lizdeluz!

 

[AloeSvea]

Well, back to talk of fasting. . I have been intending to do a short water fast for a while now, being utterly convinced as I am that fasting in all its forms can be very good as a treatment technique for T2D. (I just find it very hard.)

Last night I got a bit down when I reading up on low-carb diets, in the lit finding out that not only the wonderful Ella Fitzgerald but the wonderful Johnny Cash died of diabetes complications. (I can't say Dr Bernstein is cruel - as he was 'supposed' to have died in 1976, and it was him saying it, very much alive as he is still.) But poor Ella was legless when she died. And Cash. was only in his early 70s. (At my age - that seems WAY too young! I want to play with my grandchildren one day. That as yet do not exist.) I include this, as this worked, along with my morning FB of 6.3 - even on only 30 g of carbs yesterday - to inspire me to fast today. Until Saturday late afternoon or early evening, is the plan. Just a 2 1/2-3 day one. With an 'out clause' tomorrow, if I am having dreadful complications of fasting.

I did get that during my second fast since diagnosis - the ghastly constipation that can plague the faster if one doesn't have enough fluids (apparently). I am working very hard to not have this happen this time!. The last fast I did, foreshortened, as well as by the 'stoppage' thing, was because I got freaked out by very low blood sugars. Which I now realise I didn't have to be (I'm just utterly unused since testing to seeing anything with a '3' in front! But my non-diabetic partner with absurdly healthy blood sugars has 3. -something regularly when he hasn't eaten for a while. I just didn't know that then.) I got such low readings I believe, as I had been on a Low Calorie Diet for almost two months at the time.

I've been 'proper low carbing', in the 25-50 g total carb groove since the second week of August (a bit less than two months then). For two or three weeks I had some good FBGs - ones that I am pretty happy with, in the low to mid 5s. And even an out of the blue post-lobster-and- champagne night FBG of 4.8, but since then - 19 days in the 6.0-6.5 range and only three 5.-somethings. Even on a low-carb way-of-eating. To say I feel frustrated with this is an understatement! So perfect time to deliberately not eat. (It only feels like 'starving' .) Then see what happens to my FBGs again.

Hopefully they will go down, reflecting better functionality with improved insulin sensitivity and improved liver function (ie for glycogen depletion generally, and less gluconeogenesis/dawn pheonomenon in my case), maybe even a bit body fat lowering - especially in the liver and pancreas target areas, and to top it off - giving my pancreas and digestive system a bit of a rest. Gee, that seems a lot for only three days! But theoretically, this is what fasting does when one has T2D. In whatever form you fast.

Weight loss per se is no longer a goal for me - just in as much as it affects my T2D. (So I should not have posted this thread in the weight loss category originally, but it seemed the right idea at the time.) Now I am working on building muscle instead, as I find that way more enjoyable, and I am much better at that by nature than by going hungry often. And using from-time-to-time water fasting as an extra 'treatment method'. See how that goes.

And calling it a 'water fast' reminds me to keep drinking it! I am also drinking green tea and herb teas. Keeps me on the no-eating path more happily.

 

[AloeSvea]

'Water' only fast moving along A-OK. (If you don't count complete sleeplessness through the night, dizziness yesterday afternoon, some irritability in the evening, and needing to be accompanied on my daily walk, to make sure I didn't walk in front of a bus!)

I dealt with hunger by organising a year's worth of recipe photocopies. Compiled a week's worth of food shopping matching the recipes I have decided to cook next week. (I have a very hearty appetite.)

And was interested to note I had what felt like a very heightened sense of smell. (On my daily walk I smelt food cooking everywhere, and spent some moments describing the food I smelt to the bemused Mr Svea.)

In other words - I was just like a hungry female mouse (or is it a rat?) in the lack-of-food-effect studies. (I'm not energetic enough to hunt for references online! Bear with me.) Apparently the female rodents became sleepless, in contrast to male rodents, who slept more if my memory is serving. (Female hunger enhanced sleeplessness In order to be able to get out there into the night and hunt for food for themselves and also for their young, it has been explained with - their young being within or out of their bodies!)

The heightened senses I haven't noticed before (hadn't experienced before I would add), but did enjoy the Joe Cross animation about this effect in his Fat, Sick, and Nearly Dead docos. Heightened perception of the senses could perhaps be a better way of putting it? (Again, explained in order for the poor over-hungry animal to seek out food more successfully.)

I did have plans for work and walking today, and some socialising tonight, but I can't really imagine getting out of my chair right now, let alone working on my computer. Let alone the walk! (Which is always how foodlessness affects me. Also food regimes that lower my calorie load under 900 or 1000 a day. This I know by pure hard experience.) But I did feel much better on the way home yesterday, and didn't need to be accompanied in order to stay alert enough and upright. And no being run over by a bus obviously. . (The idea being - no point in fasting from time to time for keeping my feet, eyesight, and living long enough to be Grandma - if I'm going to ruin it all by falling under oncoming traffic in a dizzy faint!)

Mr Svea and I discussing how 'do-able' and how often such periodic foodless fasting - he as well as I - can take! Still discussing. (Currently three days once every three months is on the table as the most likely possibility.)

That's me, for the day, contributing to the pool of knowledge on forms of fasting as a treatment method for T2D.

 

[AloeSvea]

Middle of the day, on Day 3 of the foodless fast, and planning the food I am going to eat.

Thank goodness, I got the lowered fasting blood glucose level I was looking for, this morning on Day 3 (which is what I have experienced in the past, on my first foodless - four days that time - fast at the beginning of this year, before doing a real food Newcastle diet, called a 'deviated Newcastle Diet by some folk on the forum).

This morning, FBG was 5.5 - no great shakes, but in the mid 5s or below, which is what I was hoping for after not introducing any food at all into my system. At the moment BG is 4.3, and from the ketostix - I am excreting a high level of ketones level 6 or 7 - so am definitely fat burning. Healthy low level of glucose in my bloodstream. My stores of glycogen must be depleted. All good.

On the downside, as I am not a good faster (in the sense of being easier on the system), Mr Svea had to pick me up off the kitchen floor this morning, where I had had to lie down due to dizziness and an oncoming fainting spell. (My fault - a too hot bath this morning, on top of the fasting. I love hot baths but I need to be strong to take them.) I am currently in bed even though it is a beautiful sunny day - and in the subarctic region where I am in October - this is something one should be IN, not out of (Vitamin D and health and all that). (The darkness is coming!) (I have my Vitamin D levels checked here, as it is on the socialised medicine bill - due to it being such an huge issue in the part of the world, and a contributing factor to my having worsened insulin resistance leading up to the dreaded D, I am quite sure.)

So, I was planning to stretch this foodlessness to late afternoon or evening, but I will break the fast with salad, and something bbqed a few hours earlier. (I may be in Sweden, but as a Kiwi - I love a good barbie! when the sun is out, and great LCHF without the bread.) (and as a diabetic - no ketchup natch. A very wee smidgeon of tomato paste from Italy. And more than a wee bit of dijon mustard paste.)

The idea is to keep my food load low today and tomorrow, dead animal or fish and veg only. No dairy, or high caloric nuts, at least for a couple of days. ie a typical I.F. eating day (under 800 cals of wholefoods I guess.) Then introduce the nuts and the cream on day 6 and see what happens to my BG levels.

My hope is to see healthier BG levels (ie reflecting heightened insulin sensitivity, perhaps better functioning liver, reflected in less gluconeogenesis if I am lucky) in the week ahead. But that is one of the things being tested - the effect on my health after a three day foodless fast, followed by two I.F.-type fasting days, on my BG levels following it.

And weight? Same as in the foodless past - 1kg each day, hugely due to water loss I gather. And a centimetre off both my hips and my waist. (This will come back I am quite sure of course.) (Easy go, easy comes back...) (as long as it isn't MORE I am fine with that.)

My appetite levels are a constant during all of this. I don't have that lowered appetite level with ketogenesis that some people report, and on I.F-ing.

But right now I need to get Mr Svea to help me out of bed without collapsing, and into the sun so I break this blasted fast!

BBQ!

 

[AloeSvea]

FBGs
During fast:
Day 1: 6.3
Day 2: 6.0
Day 3: 5.5 (fat burning)
Post fast:
Day 4: 5.3
Day 5: 4.7
Day 6: 6.0
Day 7: 6.5
Day 8: 5.0
Day 9: 5.9
Day 10: 6.7 (time to think about when I will try the fasting again!) (Glycogen build up, and Dawn Phenomenon/Liver glucose dump I guess. It obviously doesn't take much, in my liver!)

I'm not IFing for weight loss anymore, just its affect on my blood glucose, but I have not as yet regained all the kg I lost, but am sitting at one kg less than before, 7 days later. I am still on a 20-50 g of carbs, LCHF Way Of Eating.

Effect on BG in other times of the day post fast: A lower low BG point in the afternoons - ie 4. something and 5.0 to low 5s.
One day I ate a large mid afternoon meal and nothing else until the next morning, and it had a good effect on my BG, even though I began the day with 6.5. (5.0, 4.9, and bedtime 5.2). I thought this might mean the IF technique of eating in an 8-hour period might be very good for me, so I tried replicating it the next day, but I had different results (6.3, bedtime 6.0, and following day's FBG 5.9.)

I will endeavour to have 2-3 day complete fasting at least once a month, and see if it has a cumulative effect over time, in terms of improving my insulin sensitivity and/or liver and pancreas function, as expressed in improved blood glucose levels post fasting.

 

[AloeSvea]

Observations of a one and a half day fast: I'm not sure whether I will be able to fit in a two and a half day fast in November, so I tried for a two day fast last week, as a last fasting-hoorah for and before my October HBA1c.

I can't function normally while 'water-only' (I drink herb tea, black tea, and have a coffee a day as well as water) fasting, so when I got a last minute invite to a function on the evening of my second day, I cut the fast short so I could attend, so finished at one and a half days. It was interesting, as by using ketostix, I knew I was not in ketosis, just heading that way (between trace and low levels), and I did not get the drop in BG that a two and a half day fast gives me, that can show up for a few days afterwards. (As in previous post - of 5.3, and 4.7.) So it looks like - no ketosis, no drop in BG. Makes sense.

FBGs
Days before fast:
5.7
6.8
While Fasting:
6.5
6.0 (broke fast midday)
Non-fasting days after:
5.8
6.3
6.1 (no good evening BGs either)

I had a fabulous night out the following day, which was a very early dinner (4pm - great for a spontaneous IF time overnight, which happened) followed by great conversation and a glass or two of red wine and which as is common with me - fabulous effect on my blood glucose. 4.4 evening reading. 5.5 bedtime reading. 5.3 FBG the next day. But you know, perhaps relaxation and fun can have that positive effect because of the cumulative positive effect of various kinds of fasting on insulin sensitivity (as in improving it). Who knows? But I include it just in case.