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is it your own fault

I think these are two separate issues: do we feel we are to blame? And do other people feel we are to blame?

I've covered the first of those in previous posts, but the second one is interesting. Fuelled with the ignorance of not having diabetes or obesity, people (and the press) often put both down to bad lifestyle choices. It's only when you experience either condition and look into them in a bit more depth that you realise obesity isn't necessarily "who ate all the pies and did none of the exercise?" and diabetes isn't necessarily "who ate all the sugar?"

As a (funnily enough, normal weight) friend pointed out to me: eating disorders are the most difficult addiction to get over, because you can't simply quit food. Tobacco? Alcohol? Illegal drugs? It might be safest to wean yourself off them, but ultimately, going completely without is a realistic goal. Trying to get a food addict to regulate their eating is like telling an alcoholic "You must have two double whiskys every day. But no more, and no less." Yet smokers and alcoholics (and even other drug users) get so much better treated, because they aren't so offensive on the eye.

So society fat shames on the basis that it can get away with passing off "You're disgusting, and I don't think I should have to look at you" as "I'm only concerned for your health" (or for the burden on the NHS, if they're not feeling so benevolent.) Society has created a health hierarchy, and in many people, a system of envy towards the younger, fitter and more beautiful, counterbalanced by contempt for the older, less fit and not so attractive.

I believe there's a hereditary/genetic element to both obesity and diabetes, and often the people criticising aren't dealing with the rubbish DNA that makes it more difficult to maintain an ideal weight and non-diabetic blood sugar. I don't believe either is a simple on/off gene, either. It seems quite clear from an HbA1c of 76, after 3 months of pigging out on chocolate during lockdown, that I don't have Type 2 to the same degree as someone who's getting higher figures while taking meds and sticking to a low carb diet.

There's definitely a cost to going down the carnivorous low carb route. Of course you can bulk up with cheaper non-carby vegetables and eggs. And some cases, the cost excess is minimal. I can make 8 'naked' Scotch eggs for around £3 (though I prefer to make 6 and give them a thicker meat layer) whereas regular ones from the supermarket shelf would cost me £1 for 4, and are nowhere near as nice.
 
sno0opy said:
I ate my fair share of junk food, I didn't excersise enough and took in more calories then I used
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As did many many others who have never developed diabetes and probably never will it's the luck of the draw.
 
We ate a fab diet as kids.
Everything much lower carb than is typical today. Butter, no marge. Minimal sugar. No sweets unless we were with out grandparents, once a month or so. Green beans and raspberries from the garden. One ice-cream per summer holiday. No takeaways or snacks. 2 or 3 veg alongside small carb portions. Bread disappeared from the house when I was 7yrs old when my mother realised she (and my sis and I) were intolerant. Home made packed lunches for school. The most processed thing in our diet was yogurt.

Pretty ideal childhood nutrition, and far better than 99% of kids today.

Yet by 4 years old I had raging reactive hypoglycaemia
By 15 yrs old Polycystic ovary syndrome was making my life hell
And by 18 I had a benign tumour of the pituitary gland which was ******* up all sorts of things throughout my endocrine system.
none of those were diagnosed for another 25 years.

I learned - decades before it became ‘fashionable’ and ‘the new best thing’ - that low carb was the only way to maintain any semblance of normal life, and was necessary to hold down a job. Nobody believed me, and nobody supported me, but I kept on going because there was no choice.

So I am understandably irritated when people bang on about ‘Blame’ and ‘Responsibility’.
We only get to debate these ideas after we realise how cause and effect are affecting us personally.
This is retrofitting Blame to a time in their lives when they had absolutely no understanding of what was going on, So it is inappropriate.

Many of us with underlying health conditions have always been tarred by Blame and castigated for weak willed failure and greed and so on.

and oh look, nothing has changed. We still get people on this board announcing that they were themselves to Blame, and therefore proud/successful/heroic/triumphant of their success in Beating and Dominating their health, through Will Power and Abstinence, and all those High Moral Values. The implication is, of course, that if they caused it, they get to cure it too.

Nope.

You get the hand you are dealt.
Then, depending on that hand, and the info you encounter, and your degree of misery and motivation, you do the best you can.
For some, that means total reversal and joyous declarations of ‘I’m cured!’
For others, it is extreme measures and hanging on by the fingernails, to hopefully slow down the progression.

I have problems with people apportioning Blame, but I have bigger problems with those who claim kudos for ‘curing’ or achieving ‘remission’ when others put in the same, or more effort, for longer, and don’t get the huge, headline results. Effort should not be judged by results.

Every effort should be joyously celebrated, but not with any sense of personal superiority or blame. Our successes and triumphs are limited to the potential boundaries of our unique, personal circumstances, and Blame should be discarded along with racism, sexism and fatism.
 
I completely agree with @Brunneria , I could not express it better. Every effort should be supported and celebrated. It is too easy to compare ourselves with others and either feel like a failure or feel superior. We know how complex our bodies are let alone our personal circumstances. We are all a complex mesh of things that even we don't necessarily fully realise.

I am very grateful for this site and the help I have received from it. But the thing I have been most grateful for is the support. I have posted a number of times about the fact that I do struggle sometimes with low carb and the responses have been so supportive not judgemental. I know some people thrive on very low carb and I think that is great. Some people can have significant lt more carbs than myself and still get great blood sugar levels and I am very glad for them. I hope that by educating my children that that will be the result for them.

I did follow the advice generally given about a healthy diet- yes I did sometimes slip up and have chocolate etc but m mostly that was because I could follow the advice and still put on weight. It was very disheartening and yes I was judged a lot. particularly by medical professionals.

So I am no longer willing to sit and blame myself- and I really suggest that people don't. I think that it is possible to take responsibility for our choices while still recognising that the advice most of us received wasn't what we now know. For example it is a lot easier to eat less if you don't feel really really hungry from carbs- less carbs less hunger- no they don't fill me up and keep me from getting hungry.

Anyway enough of my rant- let us look forward to improving our health and spreading the word to help others.
 
I am not to blame for having a faulty body, mental health issues, and following the eatwell diet to the letter for years. I am not to blame for becoming diabetic. I am not to blame for believing the medical profession.

However, now that I know how to try to control my type 2 diabetes, taking care of myself is my responsibility and, if I don't do what I need to do to be as healthy as possible, that is my fault.

With the caveat that PTSD and other mental health issues can trip my efforts up sometimes.

However, getting back on the wagon as soon as possible is also my responsibilities, as is getting mental health support to do so.
 
I don't think people can be blamed to the degree that the public believes because of the constant "blame the patient" attitude of the media and some HCP's. The dietary advice is aweful. It's all about money, not public health. Keep the food companies happy and they'll keep donating money to various health orgs, like diabetes associations, dietitians associations and heart associations etc to keep the low fat, eat your wholegrains and seed oils message rolling.

I believed low fat was right and eating starch sugar was healthy. I was originally diagnosed T2, based on a very high blood glucose level. Now days I don't make enough insulin. I was never told that taking corticosteroids was a problem, continue with your normal diet. I received no dietary advice, (Possibly a good thing) I was prescribed insulin and told to use a sliding scale. That was it/ Off you go!

It wasn't till I started researching about 10 or so years ago and took charge of my health that I was able to turn my health around from a declining state. Blood marker improvement continues to this day/ Overall health is far better. Responsibility was what I learned. The past is what it is, the future is what I make of it.
 
Nope not my fault I have PCOS and for years did not know how to treat it and the insulin resistance that came with it.
Now I know. When you know, a person can do better. Knowledge is power.
 
To those of you who are, please don’t tell me how to think.

I have never and will never tell anyone else that they are to blame for the state of their health. I have seen too many people close to me die early. Most had conditions / illnesses for which they were definitely NOT to blame.

What I do do if someone comes to me complaining about a health issue is point them to where I feel they may be able get some help. Some of them know I’m T2, that’s why they have approached me in the first place. I tell them how I am tackling it. Though I may be predisposed to T2, its me who ate wrong and basically chucked away my health. I don’t tell them they are to blame. They may well not be but I do tell my side if they want to hear it. I’ve written it all down and they can read it or not.

I tell them I got frightened, frightened enough that if I didn’t lose weight I may lose my sight instead. Then I tell them there is a huge amount we can do for ourselves. I direct them to this site, it helped me I tell them. There is some wonderful information I tell them, but make up their own minds. I tell them to learn about their health, something they probably have never done before. Research and learn, Ancel Keys onwards.

People can see I’ve lost weight. I was not quite obese but pretty close. Why did I change? Because I was frightened, I tell them.

Mine situation got worse - because of me. Smoking basically messed up my arteries. My aorta is blocked and every time I look down I see my blue legs and know that sometime in the future I’ll probably lose them. Although I may also be predisposed to atherosclerosis I know that smoking has, at the very least, exacerbated my problems. Yes, I blame myself. So I try and eat well and exercise as much as I can. I never believed I’d walk 60 miles a week, but I’m just about managing it.

When I see people smoking outside a hospital, perhaps they go in to have a lung removed, I don’t rush over and blame them. My first thought is, well, unprintable. What I DON’T think is, poor lambs, perhaps they have addictive personality, they need a psychologist.

My friend recently went ballistic because the new freezer she’d bought wasn’t big enough to fit an extra large pizza without taking it out of the box. I laughed but didn’t point out the obvious.

Lifestyle through education, long term, is what’s needed. Not me blaming individuals.

Other people live with all sorts of conditions and I do not blame them for their ills, I sympathize and try and help.

I’ll listen to advice and I’ll give advice but what I won’t do is have someone else tell me what to think.
 
Jo_the_boat said:
What I DON’T think is, poor lambs, perhaps they have addictive personality, they need a psychologist.
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Why not? Why not consider mental health issues, of any sort?

What about those, including many on here, who can't and don't lose weight, even though they are successfully controlling their blood sugar levels through diet?

You are, of course, free to believe what you want to. However, there is more to obesity and type 2 diabetes than the obvious black and white thinking often seen by some.
 

You’re putting words into my mouth.

I do consider mental health. As I said, I don’t say anything. Even when people are smoking outside the hospital entrance. I’m thinking probably what I suspect the majority of people are thinking, probably along the lines of, how stupid can you get? A percentage. A small percentage probably may have mental health issues.

People come on here because they have pre-existing conditions, whether genetically predisposed or not. Some of us a number of conditions. I do not and have not EVER berated anybody on here for not losing weight. Nor for failing to bring their sugar-count down. Nor anyone who has ‘relapsed’ and had a sugar-fest over the weekend and wants to talk about it and needs some support the ‘get back on the wagon’. People ask for help and get it. I know some people are simply unable to lose weight, I have never said or believed otherwise. People are trying to tell me what I should think about how to deal with my condition, that’s what I don’t like.

The zealous anti-statin brigade make me feel uncomfortable when they advocatee a statin-free world for everyone. I take statins for another reason. Should I allow these people to treat me like a pariah when they’ve no idea of my circumstances. Of course not. I’m lucky that I understand their reasoning but their vehemence feels like bullying.

Obesity is a massively complicated problem. A proportion of those of us overweight will have mental health issues. Overall, if beleived, some of the figures are startling, for example I read, ‘In 2019, an estimated 38.2 million children under the age of 5 years were overweight or obese’.

How many of those nippers have mental health problems? Not many I’ll wager. How many will go on to have mental health issues because of their obesity? Quite a number possibly. What I’m uncertain about is tarring everyone with the same brush. Nowadays we don’t tell anyone who is overweight to look after themselves when clearly, when I see the shopping trolleys of those in the supermarket, many problems are of their own making whether we like it or not. The trick will be for us to find and help those who genuinely need help and those who just have an overactive knife and fork.

The problems are deep-seated and I know first hand the problems mental health issues can cause. My brother-in-law was schizophrenic, type 1, lost both his legs and died a foul death. Did I berate him, of course not, same as I don’t berate anybody else. So yes, I do know there is more to diabetes and obesity than meets the eye.
 
Jo_the_boat said:
Nowadays we don’t tell anyone who is overweight to look after themselves
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Unfortunately many people do take it upon themselves to berate, ridicule and insult obese strangers, in loud voices, in public. I am pleased you have not experienced this. I have, on many occasions.

Why do they do this? In part, because the public narrative that obesity and/or type 2 diabetes is the fat persons sole fault, and because they think the way you said you think, in the part of your post #29 I quoted previously. People accept the media and medical narrative and see it as giving them permission to judge strangers.
 
JohnEGreen said:
As did many many others who have never developed diabetes and probably never will it's the luck of the draw.
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I don't disagree, by in my opinion that does not mean I feel blameless. Many people speed on the motorway without wrecking their cars and loosing their legs, but if you are the unlucky one and you were speeding at the time it's no less your fault my view.
 
I put on a bit of extra jelly belly in lockdown. Coupled with some stressful times, someone who on paper is low risk turned into someone with type 2. I have no excuse, I have seen the Michael Mosley documentary, I know about visceral fat and that being extra inches around the middle are the problem. I just didn't expect to have visceral fat and a relatively low threshold for developing diabetes. I am doing amazingly on the low carb diet and will eat myself better. I went to the supermarket today and tried not to mourn all of the foods I used to enjoy!
 
These are good points. I think the issue started with the food pyramid that came about in the 1970s. We were all taught that carbs were good and meat and fat were bad. Then we were taught that fat was bad as it caused cholesterol. And we were taught that orange juice was good. Then there was a deluge of processed food, and at a society wide level, as women were liberated and joined the workforce in huge numbers over that period, everyone got materially richer and families bought more and more processed food (as there was no-one home to prepare what are always better home cooked meals) and families could afford to eat out more and more.

Obesity and T2 exploded and it turns out fat probably does not cause high cholesterol.

The same is happening in SE China (the richest part of China) where Western "lifestyle" diseases like obesity, T2 and IBD are skyrocketing (this is the special area of research of an old school friend of mine). I think the link is less with Western food per se but more with being rich and being able to afford denser food.

Humans are still cavemen and programmed to eat when we can as we never knew when the next meal would come from, and so temptation is very hard to resist. A quick scan of the majority of forums here will attest to the sincere and honest difficulties people have with sticking to a harsh and at times quite unfair diet.

So I would disagree that it is any individual's fault, as these are cause and effect phenomena on a society wide basis. There is no obvious solution either, sadly, given the magnitude of the phenomena involved. At the individual level, this does not mean that we cannot strive to at least understand the forces pushing us in this direction, and we just have to keep trying, and accept that we are not perfect and will sometimes not live up to our expectations.
 
In the process of reading Ben Bikman's book, 'Why We Get Sick' - the book's an eye-opener and I've only read 35% of it so far:



I believe Bikman has pulled together the biggest cache of scientific evidence regarding insulin resistance.... the causes are everywhere, from chemicals in plastics, third-hand cigarette smoke (smoking residue that hangs around in our hair, curtains etc).

How many of us thought we were doing the 'right thing' over the years by using artificial sweeteners, swallowing gallons of sugar-free drinks - aparently around 65% sugar-free drinkers go on to be type 2 diabetic.

I've now discovered we are holding these environmental poisons in our fat stores..... so what chance do those of us who are sensitive to such 'pollutants' have?

Fructose, the sugar in fruit looks to be particularly damaging to our bodies, yet we've got it into our heads that fruit is very healthy. It might have been very healthy several decades ago, except the fruit nowadays have been cultivated to be sweeter, juicier, and bigger which equates to doubling/tripling fructose intake.

The reasons why we become fat is complex, and I'm not sure science is settled on the multitude of causes - it's not all about gluttony.
 
I mentioned above my school friend who is an international authority on IBD/IBS. He says that aspartame is very problematic as it causes stomach etc irritation and destroys gut bacteria and avoids it completely. Interesting that the explosion of diet drinks seems to have had no effect on obesity/T2/IBD rates which suggests that they are not the magic cure we all thought they were.
 

True, I've had about half a century of taking sweeteners, glad I saw 'the light' a few years ago.

As a podgy child in the 50s, the hospital doctor who used to inspect us school kids every year, sent my mother a letter telling her to swap sugar for honey in my food. Wouldn't mind but the doctor was very large, the stature of the now shamed Cyril Smith. I wondered why that doctor didn't take his own 'medicine'?
 
Honey is probably better for you than aspartame (what isn't?!) but the problem with honey is that cavemen found it rarely and with danger, we can buy industrial quantities at the shops...

I was always skinny and however much I ate could not put on weight - but what parent took their child to the doctor about that? Plus my gene was only discovered in 1992 so no-one would have known anyway
 
The 'fat abuse' kind of prepared me for being heckled for being trans. Something which happens rather more frequently, these days. I've been this body shape since around 5 years old (stayed with grandparents for a while, and my grandmother didn't think I was happy unless I was eating.) So yes, I've grown up with the ridicule of my peers, rather than just strangers, and like to think I have a thicker skin as a result. One memory of primary school is regularly 'forgetting' my swimwear on swimming days, so that I didn't have to change in front of others. Children are, of course, pack animals (and schools allowed them to be, back then.) They pick on the different, be it body shape, race, or anything else that makes someone stand out from the crowd.

I now find myself in a situation where I've always considered myself massively overweight, and yet (based on the 2018 UK stats) if I were 2 inches taller, I'd be average BMI for my age group. (We are, of course, overweight as a nation.) School reunions are an eye opener, because I'm far from the fattest one there. I've also aged better than most.

People who haven't suffered from a serious addiction underestimate what a crutch these substances become. When you've watched a chronic alcoholic, who's been hospitalised with liver failure twice, respond to the news that they've mashed their liver up so badly that continuing to drink will kill them, by going on a drinking binge, you start to understand the smokers outside of the hospital. Whatever's put them in there (which might not even be smoking related) is likely causing them stress, and they need their crutch right now. And like Steve McCroskey in Airplane, that probably isn't the right time to quit anything (mentally, at least.)

There is, of course, nothing wrong with encouraging people to live healthier lifestyles, and applauding them when they do. It's just that Joe Public doesn't seem to know the difference between encouragement and shaming, and tends to use negativity as an enforcement tool. Yet when you make someone who comfort eats miserable, what do they do? Generally speaking, they go straight to the fridge. Fat shaming is actively counterproductive.
 
Andy_Warlow said:
Me and My Partner,
If you buys fresh veg, salad, Fresh meat from a butcher.
Sixty pounds is easily spent.
That's only 8.50 a day.
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I have been widowed since last October but when my husband was still alive I never spent more than £50 a week for food, and now as a widow I rarely spend more than £20 per week. Probably helps that I eat very little meat
 
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