Is this some kind of diabetes or not?

[YvonneV]

I’m looking for some input. It’s going to be a long story, but I would appreciate any insight anyone has on the subject.

I’ve been reacting strongly to sugary food for years now. Whenever there was a birthday at work, and cake to celebrate it, I would feel very hyper and like I have clouds in my head instead of brains about an hour after eating the cake. Also, an apple as an afternoon snack would leave me more hungry than before eating it. And I could not skip a meal at all, or just be a little late, because the hunger pangs would be horrible. If I was in a meeting at work just before lunch time and it ran late, that would be hell for me just because I was feeling like I was starving. I’ve always just thought my response to sugar was a bit of an overreaction, but nothing serious. Just cut out most of the sugar and then I should be fine.

A year and a half ago I went to the doctor because I was feeling so tired. She had blood tests done, nothing was amiss. Bloodsuger was in the normal range (after food, not on an empty stomach, see above). She sent me home again, nothing she could do for me. I went on a diet to eat as much low carb/slow carb as possible. My partner started doing keto, so dinners for us would be meat and vegetables, no starchy foods. I was hoping this would change my energy levels, but it hasn’t.

During the last year some carbs have snuck back into my food habits. Bread for lunch, a piece of chocolate in the evening, chocolate fluffy bits added to the morning muesli. Stuff like that. Small bits here and there. Nothing seriously sugary like cakes etc. About a month ago on a Monday morning I was feeding the dog (dog eats first, so that the humans can eat stress free), and I felt sick with hunger. I was getting shaky, feeling weak, fuzzy in my head and nauseous. I felt almost too sick to eat, but I did anyways. It took a few hours before that subsided. I googled myself silly that day and found it most likely to be low blood sugar. The next morning the same thing happened. So I ordered one of those little blood sugar measuring things, because I’m the type who likes to measure and be sure. And something is definitely wrong. Normal people don't react to sugar/carbs the way I do.

In the afternoon the little device arrived and I started measuring. Before food, after food, on an empty stomach in the morning, just to get measurements and see what happened after which food. I followed the guidelines of measuring 1,5 to 2 hours after meals. With the changes I made (no more normal bread for lunch, only low carb bread and crackers, lots of eggs, vegetables etc.) things were looking a lot better. My values were pretty normal. One day I accidentally measured my values sooner after the meal and the results were awful. I measured 45 minutes after my breakfast of low sugar muesli with blueberries and oatmilk, and it went up to 11. Other meals were spiking similarly after around 45 minutes. For most foods, the value would drop back to within the 5-7 range an hour or two after eating. Only the muesli was very slow to drop again. After eating mostly low carb/slow carb for a year or more, I would not expect these high values, and the timing of them seems off as well. I would hate to see what happens with my bloodsugar if I do eat the really bad sugary foods, I’m not sure I would dare try it.

After reading everywhere that you should measure after 1,5-2 hours because that’s when your bloodsugar would be highest I was confused. What does it mean when the spike is much earlier? What is going on? After more google searches I learnt about the first phase response and the second phase for insuline release and I concluded that my first phase release must not be very good. When researching this I was surprised to find there are more than just two types of diabetes and that a high spike so soon after a meal could possibly indicate one of the more unknown types being the case. I’ve found your online community, and there seems to be a lot of knowledge about all the variations here.

So now we come to my question. Does anyone reading this feel like they understand what is going on? Is there a direction you feel I should look into for more information or possibly a diagnosis? I’m well aware that nobody on this forum is a doctor, and any suggestions will be taken as that, suggestions. When I know more I will see my doctor about this of course, I just want to make sure I’ve approached this the right way.

Thanks to anyone who had the patience to read this long story and taking the time to comment on it.

Yvonne

 

[OB87]

It's normal for blood sugar to rise after eating sugary or carb heavy food within a short time. They normally return to normal within an hour or two in people without diabetes. My daughter has another issue (not diabetes) but requires me to test her blood sugar sometimes and I have noticed she goes above the 7.8 limit you see sometimes. But it always returns to normal. She's a toddler and it's not diabetes.

Some of your symptoms such as feeling hungry again shortly after eating could be related to some insulin resistance but I thought it wasn't that uncommon to feel like that anyway, as blood sugar will rise and fall quickly.

It's good your blood sugar levels seem normal so probably unlikely to be diabetes. But you could always keep eye on it or speak to doc again .

 

[coby]

I’m looking for some input. It’s going to be a long story, but I would appreciate any insight anyone has on the subject.

I’ve been reacting strongly to sugary food for years now. Whenever there was a birthday at work, and cake to celebrate it, I would feel very hyper and like I have clouds in my head instead of brains about an hour after eating the cake. Also, an apple as an afternoon snack would leave me more hungry than before eating it. And I could not skip a meal at all, or just be a little late, because the hunger pangs would be horrible. If I was in a meeting at work just before lunch time and it ran late, that would be hell for me just because I was feeling like I was starving. I’ve always just thought my response to sugar was a bit of an overreaction, but nothing serious. Just cut out most of the sugar and then I should be fine.

A year and a half ago I went to the doctor because I was feeling so tired. She had blood tests done, nothing was amiss. Bloodsuger was in the normal range (after food, not on an empty stomach, see above). She sent me home again, nothing she could do for me. I went on a diet to eat as much low carb/slow carb as possible. My partner started doing keto, so dinners for us would be meat and vegetables, no starchy foods. I was hoping this would change my energy levels, but it hasn’t.

During the last year some carbs have snuck back into my food habits. Bread for lunch, a piece of chocolate in the evening, chocolate fluffy bits added to the morning muesli. Stuff like that. Small bits here and there. Nothing seriously sugary like cakes etc. About a month ago on a Monday morning I was feeding the dog (dog eats first, so that the humans can eat stress free), and I felt sick with hunger. I was getting shaky, feeling weak, fuzzy in my head and nauseous. I felt almost too sick to eat, but I did anyways. It took a few hours before that subsided. I googled myself silly that day and found it most likely to be low blood sugar. The next morning the same thing happened. So I ordered one of those little blood sugar measuring things, because I’m the type who likes to measure and be sure. And something is definitely wrong. Normal people don't react to sugar/carbs the way I do.

In the afternoon the little device arrived and I started measuring. Before food, after food, on an empty stomach in the morning, just to get measurements and see what happened after which food. I followed the guidelines of measuring 1,5 to 2 hours after meals. With the changes I made (no more normal bread for lunch, only low carb bread and crackers, lots of eggs, vegetables etc.) things were looking a lot better. My values were pretty normal. One day I accidentally measured my values sooner after the meal and the results were awful. I measured 45 minutes after my breakfast of low sugar muesli with blueberries and oatmilk, and it went up to 11. Other meals were spiking similarly after around 45 minutes. For most foods, the value would drop back to within the 5-7 range an hour or two after eating. Only the muesli was very slow to drop again. After eating mostly low carb/slow carb for a year or more, I would not expect these high values, and the timing of them seems off as well. I would hate to see what happens with my bloodsugar if I do eat the really bad sugary foods, I’m not sure I would dare try it.

After reading everywhere that you should measure after 1,5-2 hours because that’s when your bloodsugar would be highest I was confused. What does it mean when the spike is much earlier? What is going on? After more google searches I learnt about the first phase response and the second phase for insuline release and I concluded that my first phase release must not be very good. When researching this I was surprised to find there are more than just two types of diabetes and that a high spike so soon after a meal could possibly indicate one of the more unknown types being the case. I’ve found your online community, and there seems to be a lot of knowledge about all the variations here.

So now we come to my question. Does anyone reading this feel like they understand what is going on? Is there a direction you feel I should look into for more information or possibly a diagnosis? I’m well aware that nobody on this forum is a doctor, and any suggestions will be taken as that, suggestions. When I know more I will see my doctor about this of course, I just want to make sure I’ve approached this the right way.

Thanks to anyone who had the patience to read this long story and taking the time to comment on it.

Yvonne

Hi Yvonne
I have read your story, although I'm not in a position to advise. However, I think it's quite usual for the blood glucose to go up within the hour following a meal. If it's coming back to acceptable levels by the two hours it seems okay to me? My friend who isn't diabetic did a test with me once. We both had ham, egg and chips (I only had four but he had a normal serving. His bgl was 11 after an hour and then normal levels by the two hours. Obviously you have something going on, but that could be some allergy even? I don't know. Hopefully someone else on here can help you more. Good luck

 

[Lamont D]

Hi, Yvonne and welcome to the forum.
Obviously I cannot diagnose you, more importantly you require tests to get a definitive diagnosis. Am I kinda right in saying your latest tests were in normal range?
What you are experiencing is rightly a first phase insulin response that cannot cope with the glucose derived from a normal diet. Wether this is T2 or not.
These symptoms when your blood sugar levels are coming back to normal could be false hypos, but if you're having Hypoglycaemia episodes. That is not T2, That is Hypoglycaemia, which one can only be sorted the only way is to get tested.

One of the reasons behind the first phase insulin response in my case is my background insulin levels are low when eating carbs or sugars.
So, as you describe your blood sugar levels go up very quickly, even a fairly low carb meal has sent you to double figures mmols. And for example, if I had porridge for breakfast, my spike would be in the mid teens (this was recommended by quite a few doctors, dsns, dieticians and a nutritionist.)
What would happen next is a secondary insulin response and this drove my blood sugar levels into Hypoglycaemia. This medically is called an overshoot. Too much insulin is not good! At one time my levels went haywire and because my insulin couldn't cope my blood sugar levels were going higher. And because I started eating in the early morning, I would be on a rollercoaster ride of blood sugar highs and lows.
Most days at that time my craving for food was extreme. So I would be grazing on junk food and I didn't know why I was getting all the symptoms.

Anyway, we have a sub forum on Hypoglycaemia. It's called Reactive Hypoglycaemia.
I have the rare condition of ' Late Reactive Hypoglycaemia.'
Have a look and see if you can recognise the symptoms.

 

[Resurgam]

Although it took until I was 65 to be diagnosed as diabetic, for decades before that I ate low carb (NOT low sugar) to feel right.

 

[YvonneV]

Thanks for the replies so far. Being unwell from eating a piece of cake should not happen. And getting such a high reading from some low sugar muesli also shouldn't happen. The early morning lows where I felt like I would faint are also off. So there is definitely something going on. I think I might be in the pre-diabetic range, or maybe some late onset something or other. My dad had diabetes 2 and was diagnosed after he collapsed in a store. I just don't feel like I should wait until that happens to me.

I think that maybe I should just ditch the healty eating for a week or so and eat what normal people eat, and measure my bloodsugar during that time. It would give me some base levels and see what happens when I don't compensate for what I feel is a discrepancy in how my body treats sugar/fast carbs.

I will look into the reactive hypoglycemia, but when researching earlier I've found that the doctors in my country don't really believe this is an actual illness. Not that that will stop me getting more information though. ;-)

 

[jonathan183]

One day I accidentally measured my values sooner after the meal and the results were awful. I measured 45 minutes after my breakfast of low sugar muesli with blueberries and oatmilk, and it went up to 11. Other meals were spiking similarly after around 45 minutes. For most foods, the value would drop back to within the 5-7 range an hour or two after eating. Only the muesli was very slow to drop again. After eating mostly low carb/slow carb for a year or more, I would not expect these high values, and the timing of them seems off as well. I would hate to see what happens with my bloodsugar if I do eat the really bad sugary foods, I’m not sure I would dare try it.

The muesli will have lots of carbs which your body quickly breaks down to glucose and dumps into your blood stream. If you have a genuine low carb meal then you can expect very little blood glucose rise as you can see from trends using a CGM (see low carb downunder on Youtube for examples).
If you go to see your doctor then an HbA1c test will help determine if you have high blood glucose. Unfortunately the HbA1c tells you about average blood glucose value but not if there is lots of variation in blood glucose value - variations can give hypo symptoms as the blood glucose drops (as well as hypos when blood glucose falls much below 4mmol/l.

Ed: you can test your own blood glucose levels before and after a genuine low carb meal to confirm small blood glucose rise.

 

[Andydragon]

Thanks for the replies so far. Being unwell from eating a piece of cake should not happen. And getting such a high reading from some low sugar muesli also shouldn't happen. The early morning lows where I felt like I would faint are also off. So there is definitely something going on. I think I might be in the pre-diabetic range, or maybe some late onset something or other. My dad had diabetes 2 and was diagnosed after he collapsed in a store. I just don't feel like I should wait until that happens to me.

I think that maybe I should just ditch the healty eating for a week or so and eat what normal people eat, and measure my bloodsugar during that time. It would give me some base levels and see what happens when I don't compensate for what I feel is a discrepancy in how my body treats sugar/fast carbs.

I will look into the reactive hypoglycemia, but when researching earlier I've found that the doctors in my country don't really believe this is an actual illness. Not that that will stop me getting more information though. ;-)

What are the carbs in the muesli, not the sugar, the total carbs. Same for the oatmilk. I believe oat milk is one of the higher carbs of the milk substitutes so not sure it's as low carb as you might think it is

Cereals and milk (granted not a substitute) are known to have high impact even in non diabetics. The 11 spike to be fair might be high but I don't know a lot about that

Higher carbs do impact non diabetics as well as diabetics but 2 hours after food it appears your responses aren't typical T2 responses so might be something else but as others have said, this needs testing

 

[Lamont D]

Thanks for the replies so far. Being unwell from eating a piece of cake should not happen. And getting such a high reading from some low sugar muesli also shouldn't happen. The early morning lows where I felt like I would faint are also off. So there is definitely something going on. I think I might be in the pre-diabetic range, or maybe some late onset something or other. My dad had diabetes 2 and was diagnosed after he collapsed in a store. I just don't feel like I should wait until that happens to me.

I think that maybe I should just ditch the healty eating for a week or so and eat what normal people eat, and measure my bloodsugar during that time. It would give me some base levels and see what happens when I don't compensate for what I feel is a discrepancy in how my body treats sugar/fast carbs.

I will look into the reactive hypoglycemia, but when researching earlier I've found that the doctors in my country don't really believe this is an actual illness. Not that that will stop me getting more information though. ;-)

Hi again, Reactive Hypoglycaemia or post prandial Hypoglycaemia is definitely a condition. Not a symptom, an specialist endocrinologist who diagnosed me Is a professor of Endocrinology at a big city university in UK.
I have taken part in trials for a drug that should help but it doesn't stop the hypoglycaemia. The trials were written and acknowledged by the Lancet.
If I ate a piece of cake, I would go through the roof and crash even harder.
What is a normal diet to someone who is susceptible to spikes and hypos?
When a person has no problem with diabetes or similar conditions, a healthy diet is very good.
My biggest problem is carbs, which most dietary specialist or nutritionist would advise. But they are definitely not healthy for me.
What is healthy for me is no carb.
I have for the majority of time since 2013, been on a Keto diet. And my physical health is apart from wear and tear really good for a pensioner. My last Hba1c was 37.
My weight is around twelve stone (85 kilo ish).

My weight before diagnosis was over 130kilos. And my symptoms were terrible. He saved my life because of the organs were in trouble and for over a decade I had a battle with my doctors who kept telling me it was T2. And eat healthy carbs.

I produce too much insulin on my secondary insulin response and this means that I had too much insulin circulating around my blood. Which was redundant and once the glucose went, the brain gave symptoms that you needed to eat.
That is the craving. It is called hyperinsulinaemia in English. (Too much insulin)

You are talking about taking a break from normal food, why don't you try to do without carbs, or reduce your carbs even more. Keep testing. If you have normal blood sugar levels and you go hypo after, muesli, cake, flour, potatoes, bread, rice, pasta, grains including oats and wheat. Most alcohol drinks contain many carbs.
Do keep a food diary, and write what you have eaten, reading pre meal and two hours, one hour if you like and record everything. This will give your doctor's something to work with.

Let us know how you are getting on.

Best wishes.


What country are you from?

Wikipedia has a good read on the science part of it all.
Knowledge is key to understanding what you are going through.

My best wishes.
Stay safe.

 

[YvonneV]

Thanks for all the info about Reactive Hypoglycaemia. I'm not sure I fit into this category, my lows usually tend to be before breakfast (this morning again), and not so much after food. But, as I said, I've been eating quite low carb for a while now, so that could mitigate any strong responses.
I will try to eat a normal western diet with lots of carbs, bread, fries, sweets etc. for a week to see what the results are if I do that. It's possible that that will trigger higher highs and lower lows. And will give me results that would be in the diabetic or hypoglycemic range, which I can then show my doctor and get sent to a specialist for.

Keto is not for me. I've tried it years back, but I don't feel well doing it. Also, I have some genetic markers that indicate that it's not a good idea for me. My body will not be able to process the fat and use it for energy as much as you would want to. It would increase my chances of heart disease significantly. My partner is on keto and she is doing really well on it.

I'm from the Netherlands. Just across the pond from you I guess.

Before I forget. I do have a fructose intolerance. I've seen some mention of it in the RH forum, but can't really find what the connection is between the two. Do you know?

Thanks, Yvonne

 

[Lamont D]

Thanks for all the info about Reactive Hypoglycaemia. I'm not sure I fit into this category, my lows usually tend to be before breakfast (this morning again), and not so much after food. But, as I said, I've been eating quite low carb for a while now, so that could mitigate any strong responses.
I will try to eat a normal western diet with lots of carbs, bread, fries, sweets etc. for a week to see what the results are if I do that. It's possible that that will trigger higher highs and lower lows. And will give me results that would be in the diabetic or hypoglycemic range, which I can then show my doctor and get sent to a specialist for.

Keto is not for me. I've tried it years back, but I don't feel well doing it. Also, I have some genetic markers that indicate that it's not a good idea for me. My body will not be able to process the fat and use it for energy as much as you would want to. It would increase my chances of heart disease significantly. My partner is on keto and she is doing really well on it.

I'm from the Netherlands. Just across the pond from you I guess.

Before I forget. I do have a fructose intolerance. I've seen some mention of it in the RH forum, but can't really find what the connection is between the two. Do you know?

Thanks, Yvonne

That is similar to my lactose intolerance.
Your body can't cope with fruit. I can't have cows milk products.
The strange thing for me is I can tolerate Greek full fat natural yoghurt without having a reaction, The fat in the yoghurt hasn't been touched and this doesn't raise blood sugar levels as much as any dairy I have found. It does not contain fruit, so you could have that for breakfast and it does fill you.
Is your fructose intolerance hereditary?
The intolerance is due to a deficiency of the enzyme aldolase B. Due to this, if you eat cake, there will be some form of sugar because cane sugar or sugar from beet is a sucrose it is not good for me and certainly not you.

I have been to the Netherlands and had a great time with a football group, we stayed in the beautiful village of Brummen near Arnhem. I have also travelled through your very flat geographical area. I had a fortnight in Antwerp working at a huge car plant close to the docks. I have been to Germany quite a few times on holiday and work and football. Arnhem zoo and the stadium that Vitesse play in have good memories for me.

I think this is giving you all your symptoms.
You have to be careful about what production sugars are hidden in manufacturing food. What other ingredients are there in the food process?
It became clear to me just to eat fresh food as much as possible.

Just that one line about fructose, has changed the answer to your original question.

You have a rare form of Hypoglycaemia that is triggered by fructose. Maybe sucrose as well.
Have another word with your health care providers.

Take care. Stay safe.

 

[YvonneV]

That is similar to my lactose intolerance.
Your body can't cope with fruit. I can't have cows milk products.
The strange thing for me is I can tolerate Greek full fat natural yoghurt without having a reaction, The fat in the yoghurt hasn't been touched and this doesn't raise blood sugar levels as much as any dairy I have found. It does not contain fruit, so you could have that for breakfast and it does fill you.
Is your fructose intolerance hereditary?
The intolerance is due to a deficiency of the enzyme aldolase B. Due to this, if you eat cake, there will be some form of sugar because cane sugar or sugar from beet is a sucrose it is not good for me and certainly not you.

I have been to the Netherlands and had a great time with a football group, we stayed in the beautiful village of Brummen near Arnhem. I have also travelled through your very flat geographical area. I had a fortnight in Antwerp working at a huge car plant close to the docks. I have been to Germany quite a few times on holiday and work and football. Arnhem zoo and the stadium that Vitesse play in have good memories for me.

I think this is giving you all your symptoms.
You have to be careful about what production sugars are hidden in manufacturing food. What other ingredients are there in the food process?
It became clear to me just to eat fresh food as much as possible.

Just that one line about fructose, has changed the answer to your original question.

You have a rare form of Hypoglycaemia that is triggered by fructose. Maybe sucrose as well.
Have another word with your health care providers.

Take care. Stay safe.

Hi Lamont, the last few days I've managed to keep my blood sugars quite low, between 4.5 and 7. But now I'm hungry all day long! Does that fit with the hypoglycaemia pattern?

And I will try and investigate and test more concerning fruit and fructose. I never knew this was possibly linked to blood sugars.

Thanks, Yvonne

 

[Lamont D]

Hi again.....

Hi Lamont, the last few days I've managed to keep my blood sugars quite low, between 4.5 and 7. But now I'm hungry all day long! Does that fit with the hypoglycaemia pattern?

And I will try and investigate and test more concerning fruit and fructose. I never knew this was possibly linked to blood sugars.

Thanks, Yvonne

As you have already tried to go Keto, you may be aware of going into Keto that there will be times when your brain and body are telling you to eat and have more carbs.
We all go through this and for some it's bad, for some it's great, but all these symptoms disappear when you are fat adapted, in Keto. This can take up to two to three weeks and you need a lot of will power. You will need some salt and plenty of water every day to help. The salt every day sounds daft but you will not have enough salt because you should be eating fresh food. Instead of a lot of salt in a typical diet.
This is known as carb flu.
Once you are in Keto, you will feel different, you will feel better, you will feel healthier, your energy levels will increase and the ever present brain fog will clear up.
Because of many things, the hunger, the craving, the reason why you want to eat the fridge and food cupboards, it is an actual symptom of wanting more carbs. Your body and brain are giving you signals that you should eat carbs. Because it is so used to having carbs and sugar, it does mirror T2, because of a Hba1c test after eating. That is what happened to me, with any type of Hypoglycaemia, if you have blood panel test or Hba1c always do it fasting. And drink plenty of water.

I can't believe that a modern enlightened country thinks that RH doesn't exist!

I have had conversations with similar hypoglycaemia sufferers around the world. I have had posts from U.A.E., from India, one from Africa and a couple from Australia and of course the U.K., where medical science is discovering things especially about the gut and good or bad bacteria in the digestive system.
The reason for my Hypoglycaemia has developed from the bacterium called heliocobacter pylori. I don't believe I have it now, but I struggle with my intestinal tract and of course stomach. I am currently on tablets for it and so far so good.
The thinking behind this is commonly known as the gut brain trigger. All digestive systems need a balance of hormones such as insulin, there are many and all kinds of cells and microbial chemistry going on. If that balance is not there such a thing as a weak first phase insulin response will alter the balance. And because of the signal from and to the brain and gut, this is a brain's answer to supply more insulin from the pancreas.
It's not easy to be like this and I'm sure that you are experiencing difficulties with what you eat to maintain good blood sugar levels.
But the realisation of what is happening to you, will give you the push you need.


After all that, I only followed the clues you gave. And I could be totally wrong! (Ha!)

If you have read the RH forum, other than the fructose tests, you should get an extended oral glucose tolerance test or even a mixed meal test, just to see what happens. The glucose test should be over three to four hours, not the usual two hour OGTT for T2.
They should also test for GAD and c-peptide. And if your doctor is interested, a insulin test to include how much insulin is circulating.


That is it.
Sorry for the long post, but you started it!!!!!!!