It's the medication that's dangerous

[hanadr]

I really HATE to dispute with anyone, which is why, when challenged, I tend to drop the subject. It's not because I think I'm wrong. I never say anything I'm Not TOTALLY sure of unless I make that clear
Anyway I feel now is the time to make something clear.
ANYONE can have low blood sugar, not necessarily a diabetic. Diabetes causes HIGH blood sugars NOT low.
Thus if low blood sugar is caused by eating too little, it's not dangerous.Gluconeogenesis will deal with it. T2s in paricular have more active endogenous glucose production that non-diabetics.
If the low is caused by medication, which may be continuing its activity even when the Bg is already low and overcome the effect of gluconeogenesis, the situation is potentially dangerous, because the BG may continue to drop.
Non diabetic Bg ranges from about 3 to about 6 on any normal day. without anyone worrying about it.
The "4 is the floor" concept, only really matters when it's medication mediated.
I'm now going away to wait to be jumped on. If I don't get into a flaming contest. I'm still RIGHT

 

[phoenix]

Hana, I agree!
Having lived most of my life without diabetes there were lots of times when I had the same symptoms as a mild insulin induced hypo. Non diabetic OH often comes in from some hard manual work like chopping wood shaking and in desperate need of something to eat, I tested him once and he was in the 3s.
BUT I think this similarity to pre diagnosis feelings led me to trivialise my own insulin + exercise induced hypos with This was silly and potentially dangerous and lead to decreased hypo awareness for a while.
As many people are on medication of some sort so I think one has to be careful to make it clear that hypos caused by too much insulin/hypoglycaemic medication need to be treated appropriately.
edit to correct newly invented word!

 

[Debloubed]

As many people are on medication of some sort so I think one has to be careful to make it clear that hypos caused by too much insulin/hypoglycathemic medication need to be treated appropriately.

agreed, my own body has corrected itself from an insulin induced hypo/low blood sugar several times but the danger was in my hypo state I could have caused some kind of accident. I think we can all agree that taking insulin sucks! Low blood sugar in the body of an insulin using diabetic can be dangerous unless it's corrected. No argument from me!

 

[catherinecherub]

I don't think that enough studies have been done about hypoglycaemia in NIDDM so it is very difficult to be sure about this one.
Now that tighter blood glucose controls are accepted as part of the good management of non insulin/medication type 2's it would be interesting to see a result of a study.
My view is, and unlike Hana I do not claim to be right, whenever I am too low I feel unwell and that surely is not a good thing? As to what it is maybe doing to my body, I do not know and it would seem that others don't know either.

 

[hanadr]

I never said that hypos aren't dangerous, if operating machinery, just that slightly low BG Not Caused by medication, isn't dangerous to the person with it.

 

[cugila]

Whether we ike it or not and personal opinions aside the Medical Community here in the UK accepts that 4 mmol/l is the floor. Ask any Endocrinologist, any Diabetes Specialist Nurse. Check out virtually any of the main websites.

As far as this forum is concerned we give out the same information when someone asks a question about hypoglycaemia and low blood sugar levels. It has no bearing on who posts at the same time or what that person's opinions are. It will not change unless the Medical opinion changes.

It is also the measurement that would be quoted by both the DVLA and UK Police Forces.

Members are entitled to their own opinions of course, however as Moderators the information given is always factual unless stated otherwise. If you wish to pursue a course that is different that is entirely your own choice. It will not change what is posted.

I wouldn't presume to tell you that we were right, perhaps if you have other views you should take them up with the British Medical Association or the UK Society for Endocrinology I am sure they would be very interested to hear the views from other Diabetics.

 

[hanadr]

Setting a almost arbitrary number plucked out of thin air isn't very sensible. It's pretty common for non-diabetics to have Bgs in the 3s, Would the DVLA advise them not to drive? or the endocrinologists tell them to get the number up? This is why it's a nonsense unless caused by medication.
Hana
>>Hypoglycaemia or low blood glucose is a condition in which the level of glucose (sugar) in the blood, drops below a certain point (about 2.5mmol/l). The condition manifests itself by a number of symptoms that usually disappear 10 to 15 minutes after eating sugar.

People differ slightly in the exact level of blood glucose at which they begin to feel symptoms of low blood sugar.<< ref Dr. Patrick Davey; Cardiologist.
this was the FIRST reference to hypoglycaemia in non-diabetics that I googled

 

[cugila]

Hana.

We are Diabetics....not non Diabetics. This is a Diabetic Forum. As for Google, we prefer to go straight to the 'horses mouth' so to speak.

 

[hanadr]

As for horses mouths
Our local Endocrinologist, who runs the diabetes clinic( yes I know he's not well respected) refused to diagnose someone as having "reactive hypoglycaemia", because her Bg wasn't low enough. at 2.9!!
Yes I am a diabetic, but I can see no reason why I shouldn't keep my BG at the same levels as non-diabetics. Certainly those are my targets and I hit them MOST of the time.I just have to work at it.
I follow Bernstein. He doesn't give a blanket figure. He says 10 - 20((0.55 - 1.1) below target.Normal, he gives as between 80 and 100. (4.4 - 5.5) Hence high 3s are not strictly hypo
Only if someone is used to running on an elevated blood glucose, would they notice hypo symptoms in the high 3s
Before I learned better, I used to feel hypo at 4. One doctor told me that all I should be feeling was a little hungry. I think she was right.Now being used to the 4s and 5s, I don't feel hypo until below 3.5 and since I'm not supposed to test my own BG, I'd never know if I followed the medics( horses mouths). I only know, because I buy my own strips. However I'm no danger to anyone, not even myself at 3.5

 

[sugarless sue]

Hana, you are only on Metformin and diet. You will never have a life threatening hypo as medicated diabetics may have. They are the diabetics we usually aim the information at so that they can be aware of what to look for. Personally i feel terrible below 4 and would not wish to feel like that all the time!
I would, however, be worried if I was lower than that and did not feel unwell, that is hypo unawareness, a state I would not wish to be in.

 

[cugila]

Hana.

I have stated my position previously and I am not going to change that at all. You are able to follow who you like (Bernstein) again your choice. However this is not the Bernstein forum, so we do not post information from his book etc. Not exactly my 'cup of tea.' I prefer low GI/GL hints and tips. I don't follow some 'guru.' There are many other ways to obtain good blood glucose control and achieve a healthy lifestyle, lose weight. That's what we like to see.

As for Hypoglycaemia - there will always be people who have differing views as to what constitutes it. We here use the information I mentioned before. We also give out information regarding hypo unawareness, a serious condition if left unresolved. I have good hypo awareness. I, like Sue, feel awful at around 4.5 mmol/l. If I do nothing I get to feel worse and things definitely don't start feeling good. Shaking, sweating, tingling lips, anxiety, irritability and confusion, lack of concentration, change in personality......that's what a hypo is like. I have dropped as low as 2.9.....not a pleasant experience.

The last thing I want to be doing is encouraging ANYBODY to attain that sort of state - and I don't.

 

[kegstore]

It's pretty common for non-diabetics to have Bgs in the 3s, Would the DVLA advise them not to drive? or the endocrinologists tell them to get the number up? This is why it's a nonsense unless caused by medication.

I completely agree with this BUT, a non-diabetic has a MUCH tighter (and complete) range of blood sugar control, that doesn't include (for a T1) a large amount of injected insulin that will continue to work even if blood sugar drops below a certain level. Bring on the "intelligent" insulin somebody, please, it can't be that far off?!

 

[timo2]

SmartCells hope to have SmartInsulin available by 2014, if everything goes to plan, Kegstore.
I've read claims that human clinical trials are planned to begin sometime in 2010.

 

[Fujifilm]

I am a bit confused, maybe sugar levels are too low :lol:

But I would have thought that a hypo is dangerous for anyone, diabetics, non-diabetics and disilusionals.

At the hypo stage the body and mind are not functioning as they should, and therefore in certain circumstances could be a danger. Thats why "normal" peoples body's automatically correct the problem, its self preservation.

If we take driving a car as an example, it would not matter if you were diabetic or non-diabetic, a hypo causes many symptoms one of which is it reduces your brains performance, which is dangerous is it not :?:

The experts who arrived at the figure of 4 must have years and years of experience and knowledge at their disposal to be able arrive at such a number, I am sure that its not just a random number that was thought up over a pint and a packet of crisps. :lol:

 

[ham79]

agree it is the meds that can cause hypo's but I'd be dead without them. I start rattling at 4 went as low as 1.2 when sick hate being near 4 it's a horrible thing.

 

[wallycorker]

.........The experts who arrived at the figure of 4 must have years and years of experience and knowledge at their disposal to be able arrive at such a number, I am sure that its not just a random number that was thought up over a pint and a packet of crisps. :lol:........

Maybe so Fujifilm - but what a coincidence that the number they come up with is the nice and convenient whole number of 4!

Why should it be such a nice convenient whole number? Wouldn't you have expected something more precise like a number of 3.76 or 4.24?

Maybe you got it right and perhaps it was a number arrived at by some sort of a committee "over a pint and a packet of crisps"- and perhaps then someone wrote the number down on the back of a fag packet. :lol:

Best wishes - John

 

[cugila]

Very astute of you John. There was a concensus. The number was actually 3.88, which got rounded up to 3.9. This was then increased for safety's sake to 4, 'the floor.' A good catch phrase to remember easily. Quite a sensible move I would think. Keeps everybody happy.

 

[Fujifilm]

Very astute of you John. There was a concensus. The number was actually 3.88, which got rounded up to 3.9. This was then increased for safety's sake to 4, 'the floor.' A good catch phrase to remember easily. Quite a sensible move I would think. Keeps everybody happy.

Not quite everybody :lol:

 

[cugila]

Very astute of you John. There was a concensus. The number was actually 3.88, which got rounded up to 3.9. This was then increased for safety's sake to 4, 'the floor.' A good catch phrase to remember easily. Quite a sensible move I would think. Keeps everybody happy.

Not quite everybody :lol:

Ah well......such is life. You can please some of the people etc etc.......

 

[wallycorker]

..........The number was actually 3.88.........

Interesting that Ken - I thought that might have been the case!

.......and might 3.88 mmol/L been arrived at by converting from another well rounded whole and tidy looking number of 70 mg/dl?