Jason Fung confused

Mbaker said:

I must say it tastes how it looks. My extra fine almond versions look the same but are much more neutral, which I think would be further acceptable to more, as these are more like shop bought white bread in so far as not having an underlying flavour.

Today I had salmon, cheddar cheese slices in muffin buns made with extra fine almond flour. The saltiness of the salmon, with the cheese and the neutral muffins was / is as good as anything I had in my carb days for taste. The richness is so satisfying and made me struggle with dinner:

View attachment 32125

Click to expand...

Please would you post the recipe? It sounds and looks amazing!

Oldvatr said:

I think of it this way. I have actually just got myself into reversal as a T2D on orals by using a low carb way of life and weight loss. I have proven to myself and the A&E doctors that I m hyperinsulinemic as insulin drips do nothing for my blood sugars. So now when I eat carbs, the insulin resistance I had has gone, and my body stores the excess glucose away in my body as it is meant to. My body is like a battery, so if I do not use that stored energy up by exercise or low carb diet, then it will charge up again until it is full, and then I lay down visceral fat instead. This brings the diabetes back again. So I will keep LC diets going

One other thing I discovered during my reseach is that adipose fat cells get created by switcheng on unprogrammed stem cells. Once programmed it seems these cells cannot be readily re programmed as muscle, especially in the visceral area.so this is why we get love handles that are difficult to shift. We have to empty out the fat then keep them from refilling again Fat cells once created do not go away, just deflate, but are always ready to fill again given the chance. Hence the yo-yo diet syndrome, and wattles.

Click to expand...

There are also people who don’t have many adipocytes and thus can’t become obese (me). In these individuals the body quickly runs out of space in which to store the fat, and so the liver begins rejecting circulating glucose quite quickly. We become diabetic relatively easily, as we have a far smaller safety buffer than those who are able to get fat.

This may also explain why larger diabetics seem to reduce their glucose burden and increase insulin sensitivity quicker than the TOFI individuals, because as they burn away the stored fat, their body immediately has more space into which the glucose can be siphoned off into new fat - whereas those with insufficient adipose tissue still have no buffer to play with, and thus will likely find that insulin resistance is more difficult to overcome. First to get it, last to lose it, if you will.

One problem I have with many reversal theories, even Jason Fung, is that it seems they use a very simple model of Insulin Resistance. My research into what the endocrinologists say in their gobbledegook way is that there is at least two seperate forms of Insulin Resistamce. Mitochondrial (or muscle cell) and adipose (adipocytes) These tissues store energy in different ways. Muscle cells store glucose and water as glycogen. The liver also stores it as glycogen, but also stores triglycerides created by lipids from fat or created by the body from recycled glucose. The chemical locks that insulin controls in the storage process has different chemical markers, and so the two types of storage require slightly different keys to open them and allow storage. So it is possible to have different forms or IR that affects one or the other, or both.

It seems that T2D has an early start with the muscle form of IR. This reduces glucose storage in muscles. Over time, this seems to lead on to adipose IR as fat deposits grow around the liver and pancreas. This then leads to the familiar Metabolic Syndrome of T2D. So TOFU T2D seem to be mainly muscle IR but still diabetic. I was this for about 10 years, then ballooned in the midriff area and got much worse.

True remission (IMO) requires removal of both adipose fat from liver and pancreas, but also reduction of muscle IR too. I think Newcastle Diet and Fung tackle the adipose psrt, but may not remove muscle IR. I think this is why I must continue to use LC diets.

Jim Lahey said:

There are also people who don’t have many adipocytes and thus can’t become obese (me). In these individuals the body quickly runs out of space in which to store the fat, and so the liver begins rejecting circulating glucose quite quickly. We become diabetic relatively easily, as we have a far smaller safety buffer than those who are able to get fat.

This may also explain why larger diabetics seem to reduce their glucose burden and increase insulin sensitivity quicker than the TOFI individuals, because as they burn away the stored fat, their body immediately has more space into which the glucose can be siphoned off into new fat - whereas those with insufficient adipose tissue still have no buffer to play with, and thus will likely find that insulin resistance is more difficult to overcome. First to get it, last to lose it, if you will.

Click to expand...

Yup, after almost two years of LCHF (and latterly keto) I have recovered exactly zero in terms of insulin sensitivity. Sigh...

Guzzler said:

Yup, after almost two years of LCHF (and latterly keto) I have recovered exactly zero in terms of insulin sensitivity. Sigh...

Click to expand...

Still a winner!

jpscloud said:

Still a winner!

Click to expand...

In the end, the diet that is necessary to reverse diabetes in the individual is the same one that would have prevented them from ever getting it. This is why I personally don’t subscribe to the notion that once you’ve had type 2 diabetes then you will always have it - because if this is true then you had it from birth but didn’t know it. Probably a matter of perspective. Maybe even a philosophical one. I like to say that life isn’t a carbohydrate-eating competition, so I consider that if diabetes cannot be clinically diagnosed by hyperglycaemia and hyperinsulinemia, then it is not there.

mazza 2 said:

Also, I notice if I don't eat in the mornings my levels just keep on rising so I panic and eat. How long should you wait to eat if your levels keep rising?

Click to expand...

What/how are you eating normally? It could be that you are constantly topping up your glucose stores so never letting the stored sugar run down. Thus when you fast your body takes the opportunity to dump the glucose out into your blood.
As Jim says in post number 42 it could be that you are a TOFI. But just because you don't eat many times per day doesn't mean you are losing weight. Just have big meals less frequently i.e. eat twice per day lunch and dinner or maybe early morning and lunchtime and try skipping one meal a day but eat very low carb to see if that helps bring your sugars down.

mazza 2 said:

I've read the book more than once and listened to him on Youtube. To me what he says sounds logical regarding insulin being the cause and sugar levels being the symptom. I can totally relate to that. It was only the idea about beta cells which I struggled with. He states the more you use a muscle e.g. heart, the stronger it gets, so on that premise, the more insulin you make the more beta cells are used which should make them stronger ( I think that's correct). But my logic says that sometimes the more you use something, e.g. joggers who constantly run can get bad knees and like my super fit brother-in-law, needed an operation as his knees were very worn from all the wear and tear over the years. So, the other thought about over-working the beta cells also makes sense to me, hence why we will always be diabetic. But, that's only my way of thinking, hence why I started this thread. Have a good day.

Click to expand...

There are instances being reported on this forum from T2D who were on insulin long term who have managed through diet to be able to stop the insulin treatment. Now this may be a honeymoon effect and short term, but then again there may be some who have a different issue with the pancreas where it cannot be reversed, such as pancreatitis [sp] or bloodclots or other damage.

I know my pancreas is still pumping insulin after some 15 years as a T2D.

Oldvatr said:

....but then again there may be some who have a different issue with the pancreas where it cannot be reversed, such as pancreatitis [sp] or bloodclots or other damage.
.

Click to expand...

Indeed. Not all the fine detail is posted in people’s signatures. I have good reason to believe my pancreas has been damaged. I would need to get that verified.

bulkbiker said:

Yes when ill my sugars go up but I would imagine that may be the case for "normals" although as they don't for the most part monitor its hard to say for sure. Stress to can cause elevation although I don't have much these days. Can't say I have noticed peaks through over excitement but I may have just missed them by not testing so often as I used to.
10 however is pretty high I don't think I have been over 6 all year.. Have you though of trying some fasting to lower your levels if you are worried?
I never eat before noon and just get by with tea and coffee (with milk or cream). I found that a very good therapy for lowering blood sugars.

Click to expand...

I think I'll have to give IF a go, I was diagnosed 12 years ago, started on low carb diet (from 20 to 50 gms carbs/day) 18 months ago, my HBA1c has come down from 66 to 46 and I am off all medication, but my early morning BG figures often as high as 9 !!
During the day my levels drop to around 5.5 or a bit lower so I don't worry too much about fasting figures, although I would obviuosly like them to be lower. I have never been overweight BMI 21, had an ultra sound recently and have an enlarged fatty liver, don't drink much so diagnosed as NAFLD, currently average 60% fat 25% protein and 15% carbs per day, in the hope of getting rid of excess fat in liver

Fasting glucose, despite being the reading that many choose to pay less attention to, is in my opinion the greatest easily measurable marker of systemic and hepatic insulin resistance. This is the number that I believe must be completely normal without medication before the individual can truly claim good insulin sensitivity, and IF is possibly the most powerful tool in achieving this.

mazza 2 said:

Jason Fung confused

Click to expand...

I thought a statement like that wasn't allowed on this forum

Jim Lahey said:

Fasting glucose, despite being the reading that many choose to pay less attention to, is in my opinion the greatest easily measurable marker of systemic and hepatic insulin resistance. This is the number that I believe must be completely normal without medication before the individual can truly claim good insulin sensitivity, and IF is possibly the most powerful tool in achieving this.

Click to expand...

Thanks Jim I'm trying to persuade myself to give it a go, thing is I enjoy my breakfast and dinner so missing lunch gives me probably 9 hrs fasting at most and then 13 hrs between dinner and breakfast at most.

Listlad said:

Indeed. Not all the fine detail is posted in people’s signatures. I have good reason to believe my pancreas has been damaged. I would need to get that verified.

Click to expand...

The only way we have to determine actual insulin levels being produced is the C-peptide test that can be used to check for T1D Apparently we produce an almost equal amount of the hormone c-peptide in parallel with the insulin, It is apparently easier to measure than insulin,

Oldvatr said:

The only way we have to determine actual insulin levels being produced is the C-peptide test that can be used to check for T1D Apparently we produce an almost equal amount of the hormone c-peptide in parallel with the insulin, It is apparently easier to measure than insulin,

Click to expand...

How about a “fasting insulin test” ? Would that do the same?

Listlad said:

How about a “fasting insulin test” ? Would that do the same?

Click to expand...

I believe it is similar to the C=Peptide test and needs a specialist lab to measure it, I know C-Peptide can be done in UK, but the fasting Insulin seems to be only available privately. Think NHS will cover C-Peptide but it is not a common test now.

There is also a technique called an insulin clamp test, again used mainly in a lab, that can give a rough idea, and it is commonly used during research experiments, not in vivo.

I believe it is similar to the C=Peptide test and needs a specialist lab to measure it, I know C-Peptide can be done in UK, but the fasting Insulin seems to be only available privately. Think NHS will cover C-Peptide but it is not a common test now.

There is also a technique called an insulin clamp test, again used mainly in a lab, that can give a rough idea, and it is commonly used during research experiments, not in vivo.
Previously discussed in
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/fasting-insulin-tests-nhs-says-no.147742/

@jpscloud, @mazza 2, below are both the macros and the recipe with both Coconut and Almond Flour Alternatives, this makes 2 (but maybe halve the mixture for 1 serving). I have mentioned brands as I went for low carb versions of the ingredients that my family have tested. The Salmon amount could be cut in half, I was stuffed on 225 grams, which impacted dinner later:




Again I can't taste almond with that version of flour, the extra fine is expensive, but in my view worth it, as almond meal can be a bit grainy. These are great for burgers and the like and can be toasted, and last at least 24 hours.