Keeping On Track - after the Newcastle/Mosely Diet

[muzza3]

I'd love to have seen his face!

It was a good moment. Don't get me wrong he is a good MP and I have been seeing him for years but he is very old style and was quite unsettled by the level of the improvements not just in the HbA1c but also the cholesterol and kidneys function.

 

[Pipp]

@muzza3
This could be your ideal opportunity to re-educate the doc and the dietitian. Occasionally we encounter medical professionals who are open to new ideas. If you can maintain your good progress for a while, why not consider going for next check up armed with evidence of your good BG levels, a diary of what you have eaten, how you are maintaining etc, and print outs of the academic research from the Newcastle diet team. Other useful material is that provided by @Southport GP , a valued member here.

 

[muzza3]

Hi @Pipp

You are spot on. I took all of my weekly records in with me. To be fair he spent a lot of time asking me questions and took many notes. Even with the HbA1c I suggested i would like to put it off for a month so that the 3 months was from just after I started the ND. He actually pushed to do it straight away as I think he was very keen to see the results himself. As it turned out Professor Taylor and Dr Mosley were on Australian TV on that same night and I suggested he should watch it.

I will continue to work on him as I will be pushing for an further HbA1c and possibly a GTT. There was no doubt he was very surprised by the results

 

[AndBreathe]

Hi @Pipp

You are spot on. I took all of my weekly records in with me. To be fair he spent a lot of time asking me questions and took many notes. Even with the HbA1c I suggested i would like to put it off for a month so that the 3 months was from just after I started the ND. He actually pushed to do it straight away as I think he was very keen to see the results himself. As it turned out Professor Taylor and Dr Mosley were on Australian TV on that same night and I suggested he should watch it.

I will continue to work on him as I will be pushing for an further HbA1c and possibly a GTT. There was no doubt he was very surprised by the results

You probably got the truest reflection of the ND effort by testing now. The 3 months quoted for the HbA1c is approximate - depending on how long the individuals' Hb survives ( a bit like any cell, we each "refresh" at differing rates), and also the impact of time on the HbA1c is sort of wedge shaped, with the biggest impact from the near recent time, so your furthest month will really have a disproportionately small impact on that score.

Had you waited, although you are hoping to sustain the improvements you have made some of the frank impact of the ND, as opposed to ND + then LCHF could have been tailing off.

 

[Pipp]

Hi @Pipp

You are spot on. I took all of my weekly records in with me. To be fair he spent a lot of time asking me questions and took many notes. Even with the HbA1c I suggested i would like to put it off for a month so that the 3 months was from just after I started the ND. He actually pushed to do it straight away as I think he was very keen to see the results himself. As it turned out Professor Taylor and Dr Mosley were on Australian TV on that same night and I suggested he should watch it.

I will continue to work on him as I will be pushing for an further HbA1c and possibly a GTT. There was no doubt he was very surprised by the results

I think we have to tread softly, and gently with the health care professionals. They have for a long time now been taught the low fat complex carbs mantra. They are cautious about deviating from that. To be pioneers for the alternative management methods we have to be organised, as you have @muzza3 by keeping accurate records, have available copies of respected research, but most importantly sustain the weight loss and good blood glucose levels over a long period of time. (That last bit is the most difficult). Unfortunately, many health care professionals I have seen, are reluctant to acknowledge the progress, and very keen to be proved right, should I start to gain weight or slightly increase HbA1c.

 

[muzza3]

@Pipp
I agree and it is really important for me right now to follow thru and loose the additional 9 kilos that will achieve my weight goal and get my HbA1c into the 30's before I can clam job done. I will keep working away at my Doctor with my further results and supporting information.

 

[Pipp]

@Pipp
I agree and it is really important for me right now to follow thru and loose the additional 9 kilos that will achieve my weight goal and get my HbA1c into the 30's before I can clam job done. I will keep working away at my Doctor with my further results and supporting information.

Good luck with it all @muzza3
An important observation, even with HbA1c in 30s and weight loss complete, although it feels like 'job done', which is a brilliant achievement, it is possible if one does not remain vigilant, for job to become undone again.
Not trying to take anything from your achievement, just a reminder that at this stage the euphoria of that achievement can make one vulnerable to missing out on the forever maintenence phase. I refer to the advice on maintenence from the Newcastle diet advice pages. Not aimed at you, personally, @muzza3, but for anyone contemplating Very Low Calorie Diet as a method of managing diabetes. It is often overlooked. This is what the Newcastle research says:-



After achieving your target weight - how do you keep your weight down in the long term?

1. Once you are at your personal target weight, the critical thing now is to become accustomed to eating approximately 2/3 of the total amount you used to eat. There need be no restriction upon any particular food stuffs, although naturally foods that are very calorie-dense are best avoided. The goal is keeping the weight down [you may find your weight increases 1 – 2 kg over a few days on returning to a higher calorie intake; this is because your glycogen stores return to normal and glycogen is stored in the water inside your body].
   
   
2. If you are increasing your exercise, do not adjust your calorie intake, as it is so easy to over- compensate for exercise.
   
   
3. Most people maintain a consistent healthy weight; most successfully by:
   
   a) Weigh weekly - and write it down
   b) Walk, cycle, stairs. Maintain a high level of everyday physical activity
   c) Party but payback. Enjoy life and especially occasions to celebrate, but there is a price.
   
   You must eat only about half your current intake for a few days
   

 

[muzza3]

You probably got the truest reflection of the ND effort by testing now. The 3 months quoted for the HbA1c is approximate - depending on how long the individuals' Hb survives ( a bit like any cell, we each "refresh" at differing rates), and also the impact of time on the HbA1c is sort of wedge shaped, with the biggest impact from the near recent time, so your furthest month will really have a disproportionately small impact on that score.

Had you waited, although you are hoping to sustain the improvements you have made some of the frank impact of the ND, as opposed to ND + then LCHF could have been tailing off.

Thanks for the feedback @AndBreathe. The experience of people like yourself and @Pipp who have achieved these great results and maintained them over time is what makes this such a great Forum. I suppose my thinking is that my drop in Avg Weekly BG's really kicked in in week 4 so I would think that the first 2 weeks of ND would have had less impact. Also the four weeks prior included Xmas and New year and two weeks of holidays and some of the eating and celebrations that took place in that period. Given that is 6 weeks it would be half of the testing period.

Either way I need to kick on with the LCHF and continue to my weight goals and lock in the results of the ND to achieve long-term results as you have so that one HbA1c test really becomes just part of the pattern

 

[AndBreathe]

Thanks for the feedback @AndBreathe. The experience of people like yourself and @Pipp who have achieved these great results and maintained them over time is what makes this such a great Forum. I suppose my thinking is that my drop in Avg Weekly BG's really kicked in in week 4 so I would think that the first 2 weeks of ND would have had less impact. Also the four weeks prior included Xmas and New year and two weeks of holidays and some of the eating and celebrations that took place in that period. Given that is 6 weeks it would be half of the testing period.

Either way I need to kick on with the LCHF and continue to my weight goals and lock in the results of the ND to achieve long-term results as you have so that one HbA1c test really becomes just part of the pattern

Of course, I'm going to sound unsympathetic, but if you're going to discount two weeks of the ND because you didn't think they were so effective, then you are trying to skew the results. The results are what the results are.

The thing about Christmas, New Year, holidays and celebrations is they have a habit of coming back after a while, so why count them out.

I had a protracted period of stress, initially mainly mental, then the physical stress of surgery and recovery to contend with, but I couldn't justify deferring my HbA1c just because of it. I really do hope I don't have to repeat the investigations, surgery or complication and recovery again, but that was my life from May until January. Sure, my HbA1c rose by a couple of points, but with this thing, like it or not, even in a remission/resolved/reversed/cured situation, over the years our scores are likely to vary, within our own personal range; whatever that is.

There's a lot to get our heads around, and I still sometimes have round and round arguments with myself over certain aspects the thing.

 

[muzza3]

Good luck with it all @muzza3
An important observation, even with HbA1c in 30s and weight loss complete, although it feels like 'job done', which is a brilliant achievement, it is possible if one does not remain vigilant, for job to become undone again.
Not trying to take anything from your achievement, just a reminder that at this stage the euphoria of that achievement can make one vulnerable to missing out on the forever maintenence phase. I refer to the advice on maintenence from the Newcastle diet advice pages. Not aimed at you, personally, @muzza3, but for anyone contemplating Very Low Calorie Diet as a method of managing diabetes. It is often overlooked. This is what the Newcastle research says:-



After achieving your target weight - how do you keep your weight down in the long term?

1. Once you are at your personal target weight, the critical thing now is to become accustomed to eating approximately 2/3 of the total amount you used to eat. There need be no restriction upon any particular food stuffs, although naturally foods that are very calorie-dense are best avoided. The goal is keeping the weight down [you may find your weight increases 1 – 2 kg over a few days on returning to a higher calorie intake; this is because your glycogen stores return to normal and glycogen is stored in the water inside your body].
   
   
2. If you are increasing your exercise, do not adjust your calorie intake, as it is so easy to over- compensate for exercise.
   
   
3. Most people maintain a consistent healthy weight; most successfully by:
   
   a) Weigh weekly - and write it down
   b) Walk, cycle, stairs. Maintain a high level of everyday physical activity
   c) Party but payback. Enjoy life and especially occasions to celebrate, but there is a price.
   
   You must eat only about half your current intake for a few days

@Pipp

Thanks @Pipp

Sensational post and succinctly sums up exactly where I need to go from here. I have put that into my journal. Its amazing that when I started the ND I had no idea how in the end it would impact my thoughts about diet and food. I am almost scared of Carbs now but I think perhaps at 57 years of age I am finally taking responsibility for my diet rather than outsourcing it to my wife, restaurants, TV Commercials and fast food outlets

 

[muzza3]

Of course, I'm going to sound unsympathetic, but if you're going to discount two weeks of the ND because you didn't think they were so effective, then you are trying to skew the results. The results are what the results are.

The thing about Christmas, New Year, holidays and celebrations is they have a habit of coming back after a while, so why count them out.

I had a protracted period of stress, initially mainly mental, then the physical stress of surgery and recovery to contend with, but I couldn't justify deferring my HbA1c just because of it. I really do hope I don't have to repeat the investigations, surgery or complication and recovery again, but that was my life from May until January. Sure, my HbA1c rose by a couple of points, but with this thing, like it or not, even in a remission/resolved/reversed/cured situation, over the years our scores are likely to vary, within our own personal range; whatever that is.

There's a lot to get our heads around, and I still sometimes have round and round arguments with myself over certain aspects the thing.

Fair Cop! I appreciate the feedback and particularly the straight shooting. Yes I am moving forward ND done and more work to do
Thanks

 

[Pipp]

I agree with all AndBreathe is saying. It is sort of deception if we wait to time our HbA1c test to a time we believe will show the most favourable results. By having the test, regardless of what sort of foodie celebrations or deviating from chosen eating regime, we get a true picture of what is going on.

As for the advice about post calorie reduction period, I only wish I had thought this out before I embarked on ND. One reason I advise caution is that I remember that feeling of elation immediately after completing the very low calorie phase, with huge weightloss, and well controlled BG. My downfall came some 2 years later. I had been very ill, and had 2 major operations in a short timescale. Depending for a few months on hospital food, gained some of the weight back, and took on a challenge to try high carb food to test whether my BG would spike. It didn't, but I started to crave and eat high carb junk food. An addiction, I believe. It took several months to get that under control, and although I have managed to stay under the diabetic range, my BG has seen increases. I am concerned that I could now be close to breaching my personal fat threshold, some four and a half years after sorting it.

Reason I am documenting this here, and now? I have seen so many posts where member is of the opinion that all they need to do is the 8 week very low calorie phase, and they will have a miracle cure. It is not that simple. Not many people understand that. You, @muzza3 seem to be taking that on board. I applaud you, and hope others will follow your example.

 

[tatchick]

Hi there muzza3-from a fellow Aussie,
On Tuesday I was diagnosed as type 2 so I went straight out to buy the book and also by chance I saw the insight segment on diabetes with Dr Newcastle & Mosley
I have bought the Newcastle Mosley diet book and I was just wondering what you mainly ate to keep to the 800 cals per day. It seems really hard to stick to 800 cals for example what I have eaten today thus far
60 gms chicken breast left over from last nights dinner
1.5 eggs scrambled (what was left over from yesterdays breakfast)
2 glasses of water
1 cup of coffee with 1.5 teaspoons cream in it
According to myfitnesspal the total calories for today thus far is 354. Based on the 800 cal theory that doesn't leave many cals for the rest of the day!
Feeling a bit overwhelmed at the moment any advice offered would be appreciated.

 

[muzza3]

Hi @tatchick

Great to meet another Aussie on here (there are a few). Its always a shock when you get diagnosed and it is great to see you have already been proactive. I heard today that in Canberra the books had sold out. Given that you are prediabetic there is a really good chance that you can nip it in the bud. I am more than happy to tell you what worked for me and to encourage you to get on top of this. Can I suggest that you put a post in the Newly Diagnosed forum as well. It will get you access to a number of opinions and a lot of experience who may have solutions that will work better for you.

Do you have a meter yet? What levels or information have you been given by your Doctor?

 

[muzza3]

Hi All
Midweek update 2nd week on LCHF
FBG have all been under 5 this week.
While I won't officially weigh in till Sunday I am on track to lose weight this week(Phew)

I am quite satisfied with the diet I am getting together at this stage the template for Mornings and Dinner is

MORNINGS 723 Calories 47g Carbs

Snack after BFG and Weight Check - Berry Yoghurt and Oatbran - 123 Cal and 18 Carb
Exercise 45 minutes Interval Walking and Strength
Breakfast Beef Sausage or Bacon with 1 egg and slice of toast with butter - 380-400 Cal and 13 carb
Snack FullCreamMilk Coffee 206 Cal 16 carb

Comment - I really enjoy all of this. 47g carbs is quite high in the morning but I need most of my energy here

DINNER/TEA

I now eat with the family and whatever meal they are having - less White Carbs or Sugar eg: Stir Fry extra Vegetables no rice

Calories vary from 290 - 500 Carbs from 8g to 11g

This is really working for me and I enjoy the meals

I still have to work on lunches and afternoon snack and possibly pre- bed snack

At the moment Daily Calories 1300 - 1500 and Daily Carbs 64g to 86g

 

[JenniferW]

I appreciate the discussion of how people cope long term with the diet change this all demands. I've not even tried the ND because I have a lifetime history of yoyo dieting, with the overall weight just going up over my life. The times I was successful in losing weight were with calorie-counting, and I was never able to keep it up long, long term. For some of us, that's the real problem - living with permanent change.

I'm now on a low-carb diet, and see a similar pattern - I manage to keep it low (below 100g) for many weeks, then it creeps up (though never to what it must have been before). The meter and daily weighing help to keep me on track. And long-term I'm fairly optimistic. I was diagnosed just under a year ago, and I've already made significant change and learnt a lot about myself. I think many of us need to do a lot of the latter as part of all this.

 

[muzza3]

I appreciate the discussion of how people cope long term with the diet change this all demands. I've not even tried the ND because I have a lifetime history of yoyo dieting, with the overall weight just going up over my life. The times I was successful in losing weight were with calorie-counting, and I was never able to keep it up long, long term. For some of us, that's the real problem - living with permanent change.

I'm now on a low-carb diet, and see a similar pattern - I manage to keep it low (below 100g) for many weeks, then it creeps up (though never to what it must have been before). The meter and daily weighing help to keep me on track. And long-term I'm fairly optimistic. I was diagnosed just under a year ago, and I've already made significant change and learnt a lot about myself. I think many of us need to do a lot of the latter as part of all this.

You are right and as has been pointed out to me if I lose the plot then all I have achieved just becomes another YO YO Diet. There are many skeptics on here regarding the long-term value of the Newcastle Diet and they have been around long enough to have seen this happen and to some degree are justified. Thankfully there are also some here that have gone thru this process and kept their control/reversal and I have received great advice from them as you can see above

 

[AtkinsMo]

With the exception of tinned fish, tomatoes and olive oil, I just don't stray into those supermarket aisles where the stuff with labels are! Ooh, I almost forgot 85% chocolate, makes shopping a whole lot quicker, basically zipping around the vegetables, fresh meat and fish and dairy!

I just went strict LCHF (20g) to lose the first 35 lbs or so, then increased it to where I am now, about 40-50g including a glass or two of red wine every night, and I lose about 3-4lbs a year (now 43lbs in total). And I also try to do 10,000 steps a day. Now getting to the lower end of overweight BMI, but according to research, this may be the best place to be for lowest mortality. I am sure you are going to enjoy your LCHF food and that is the secret, to find an eating plan where you actually enjoy the food.

 

[Brunneria]

You are right and as has been pointed out to me if I lose the plot then all I have achieved just becomes another YO YO Diet. There are many skeptics on here regarding the long-term value of the Newcastle Diet and they have been around long enough to have seen this happen and to some degree are justified. Thankfully there are also some here that have gone thru this process and kept their control/reversal and I have received great advice from them as you can see above

I think the presence of 'we skeptics' and the fact that self testing on bg is becoming more and more popular may help people to maintain their weight loss and overall control.

Which is brilliant.

There is also so much more understanding of how carbs (and their addictive qualities) affect us.

People are now in a better situation than they have ever been to handle the post-diet issues that may occur - so I see that as a hugely positive thing.

It is as though we are finally getting somewhere with bg, diet, carb and weight comprehension after decades of the LF Dark Ages.

 

[muzza3]

With the exception of tinned fish, tomatoes and olive oil, I just don't stray into those supermarket aisles where the stuff with labels are! Ooh, I almost forgot 85% chocolate, makes shopping a whole lot quicker, basically zipping around the vegetables, fresh meat and fish and dairy!

I just went strict LCHF (20g) to lose the first 35 lbs or so, then increased it to where I am now, about 40-50g including a glass or two of red wine every night, and I lose about 3-4lbs a year (now 43lbs in total). And I also try to do 10,000 steps a day. Now getting to the lower end of overweight BMI, but according to research, this may be the best place to be for lowest mortality. I am sure you are going to enjoy your LCHF food and that is the secret, to find an eating plan where you actually enjoy the food.

Thanks for your support AtkinsMo
They are tremulous results you have achieved and they encourage me even more. I totally agree with you re weight goal. Mine at 79kg will also have me at the bottom end of overweight BMI but that seems healthy to me as well. Still 9kg to go