Ketosis

[Guzzler]

@Grateful

Check out http://www.tuitnutrition.com/ for some excellent myth busting on ketosis. Also useful info on gluconeogenesis and a few other topics.

I always feel like tearing my hair out when ppl declare they are ‘kicked out of ketosis’ or ‘a diet must be below 20g carbs to be ketogenic’ or a whole host of other stuff. Basically, if your calorie intake from carbs (and some protein) is too low to fuel your body, then you are running on a sliding scale of ketones - whether they come from dietary fat or bodily fat. It will vary through the day, and depending on what you eat, but the on/off switch is a nonsensical concept. So many myths...

I hope you enjoy Tuit. I think she is great.

That blog entry puts the tin hat on it for me, can't believe I wasted twelve quid on keto sticks when, as Amy says, my scales and tape measure were telling me everything I needed to know. I live and learn. Thanks for the link.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

If a "keto diet" is one of permanent ketosis, then I think it is likely that relatively few of us are doing this, even on a very-low-carb diet.

I eat about 40 gms of carb a day, found in all the veg that I eat. I have had blood tests that show I am in a state of ketosis, although the fat isn't really melting away. Have a look at Keto sticks/strips, they're not too expensive, not as accurate as blood tests but OK..

https://www.ruled.me/measuring-ketosis-keto-sticks-keto-strips/

 

[bulkbiker]

If anyone has a lot of questions about ketosis I would seriously suggest joining the www.ketogenicforums.com
Similar to this forum it has a wealth of information (as well as some of the disagreements!) and a few of the same characters..
Carl and Richard the two "keto dudes" who founded it are usually around and provide a huge amount of illumination on the science of the ketogenic diet (Richard especially). Its slightly more focussed than here and probably more US styled but its a great place to be.

 

[kokhongw]

Marty Kendall's blog also has some very good discussion on Therapeutic Ketosis...
https://optimisingnutrition.com/category/therapeutic-ketosis/

Depending on the severity of the conditions that we want to treat, there may be the need to maintain a prolong state of ketosis to have the therapeutic effects desired. For the rest of us, simply having Intermittent Fasting or Time Restricted Feeding to extend the daily fasting state may be adequate to restore some metabolic balance.

 

[ringi]

Remember that most research on ketosis has been done in people who don’t have Type2 diabetes.

But I recall it being said by one of the researchers that most people can switch into and out of ketosis many times a day, maybe many times an hour. But that some people (and these tended to be people with very high insulin resistance) found it hard to switch into and out of ketosis.

It’s not something I care about as a normal low carb worked for me, therefore I have had no need to go very low carb. As I have lost a lot of fat, hence I must have been using ketenes for a lot of the time.

But virtahealth is pushing VERY low carb for their clients, they are run by the top low carb researchers and dealing with people with long-term Type2. They talk about the risk of someone coming out of the ketosis state. Therefore they must think there is some sort of switch, at least in some people.

It could be that some of their clients are producing so little insulin of their own that their body can’t control BG if there is any glycogen in their liver, and that by remaining in a high state of ketosis at all times, glycogen is unable to build up in the liver.

 

[Guzzler]

Remember that most research on ketosis has been done in people who don’t have Type2 diabetes.

But I recall it being said by one of the researchers that most people can switch into and out of ketosis many times a day, maybe many times an hour. But that some people (and these tended to be people with very high insulin resistance) found it hard to switch into and out of ketosis.

It’s not something I care about as a normal low carb worked for me, therefore I have had no need to go very low carb. As I have lost a lot of fat, hence I must have been using ketenes for a lot of the time.

But virtahealth is pushing VERY low carb for their clients, they are run by the top low carb researchers and dealing with people with long-term Type2. They talk about the risk of someone coming out of the ketosis state. Therefore they must think there is some sort of switch, at least in some people.

It could be that some of their clients are producing so little insulin of their own that their body can’t control BG if there is any glycogen in their liver, and that by remaining in a high state of ketosis at all times, glycogen is unable to build up in the liver.

I remember one boffin saying that the carbs themselves could switch off the fat releasing mechanism that would allow ketosis to set in. Can't remember who said it but I wondered at the time if that could possibly explain why some people see such poor weight loss on LCHF. Interesting stuff.

 

[seadragon]

It seems once again a case of every body is different. I went very low carb at the start, lost weight effortlessly, was almost certainly ketogenic, had boundless energy - didn't really have leto-flu or maybe I was just quick to adapt but either way the effects seem to have been long lasting. My body now seems to be a fat burning machine with occasional bits of carb burning. rather than the other way round which would seem to be normal for people on a higher carb diet. It seems I had to teach my body to use fat preferentially but once it got in the habit it's stuck even when I eat a few more carbs than normal (though i do try to burn those off quick with some exercise.
When it was a carb burner though I had a terrible blood sugar roller coaster ride every day with gnawing hunger and irritability if I didn't get my regular carb 'fix'. Becomign a 'fat burner' even if not ketogenic for all or even much of the time has made me a much nicer person!

 

[Guzzler]

I watched a good video last night by Dr. Eades who went into some detail about ketogenesis. A lot of it went over my head and I was tired so I will have to watch again but the crux of what I remember is that the brain can and does use ketones quite happily and that the liver can indeed make glucose from fatty acids if the brain needs it.

 

[Grateful]

I think I'll go ahead and order a small supply of ketone test sticks. Before I do though: @Guzzler, am I right that you found them a waste of money? Why? (Thanks in advance.)

 

[bulkbiker]

I think I'll go ahead and order a small supply of ketone test sticks. Before I do though: @Guzzler, am I right that you found them a waste of money? Why? (Thanks in advance.)

In case @Guzzler isn;t around.. keto pee sticks are notoriously inaccurate as once your body starts to run on fat and ketones you stop excreting them in your pee as they are all being used in the body. So whilst your pee sticks change colour in the early days after a while there are fewer ketones in the urine. Blood ketones are a better measure (as well as being more accurate).
I think you can get a meter in the states called the Keto Mojo? Jimmy Moore sells them... which so far as I know costs about $1 for a blood ketone test (it also doubles up as a blood glucose meter if ever you get the urge....)
https://keto-mojo.com/collections/shop-now

 

[Guzzler]

Aye, for me they were a waste because I knew that I was losing weight and I was concerned about trying to stabilise rather than lose more. I used a dozen sticks which all said I was not in ketosis but I knew I must be because my scales and tape measure and my diet told me that logically I must be. Then, after reading about it more I decided that it really didn't matter if I was in ketosis at all just as long as I was fat burning and not carb burning. I am sure that measuring ketones is vitally important to those with T1 Diabetes but the only non T1s who seem obsessed with ketone levels are body builder type people.

 

[Grateful]

Wow, an instantaneous panel response! Thankyou Bulkbiker and Guzzler. I will save my dollars for something else.