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LCHF sabotage factors

mojo_101

mojo_101

Well-Known Member
Messages
126
Location
Sussex
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Pump
Hi - I need to lose weight and like other posters, seem to have plateau-ed... (after 6 or so weeks) 3 kg lost so far, lately nothing for 3 weeks
so I would welcome a summary of what might sabotage ketosis and some physiology to help me understand.
- For example, perhaps too many carbs in a single meal, or an alcoholic drink - for me red wine (the odd beer), or perhaps not enough fat would reduce the effects... ?
I do stick to low carb, (20 to 40g) but during the week may have the odd meal with 25g carbs - often breakfast - and perhaps I should cut down to the 20g total which is often mentioned.
Perhaps a prioritised list of must do, and desirable dos/donts to maintain ketosis would help me and others trying to learn this by trial and error.

Thanks for your help...
 
You need to put up sample menus of various meals that means people can see and comment. But as this is for life the fact you didn't loose a zillion kg straight off is also normal. You do not want a huge fast weight loss. It could be not enough fat it could be not enough exercise it could just be the body taking a break.

However l would say is you can not have your cake and eat it. 1 beer is many carbs do you want to loose weight or enjoy life at times we can not do perfectly each one and if it means several months kicking things like alcohol (beer wine etc) and "one high carb meal" into touch to get the weight down then what's the problem? you got other times to enjoy a drink and high carb meal. You may think you are fooling your brain but your body knows better.

I suggest if you dont do it already you start a food diary for several weeks l found it a huge help at the start, you need to an exact measure of food so you know what's going in. In time when you have a visual idea of what is on your plate weight wise then fine kick weighing food into touch but at the start use tools.that are out there (food diary blood glucose monitor weighing scales). Record time of day, food, amount of food, carbs and if you want protein and fat but thats optional also if you are doing your bloods put down what your pre and post were on each meal so that you have again an idea of how you are affected.

If you are not doing bloods then start cause all foods affect differently and if you don't know how you are affected then carb counting is pretty useless.
 
Or it could just be your are consuming too many calories from your fats and protein. If you eat more calories than you burn, you will not lose weight. Do you keep an eye on calories as well as carbs?
 
Don't know if this helps, but I have virtually zero carbs for breakfast as I usually wake up a bit high (cheers, liver), a few for lunch, more for dinner as I may not eat again for 12 hours. If you have 25g for breakfast, it is not a very even distribution throughout the day. I agree with the other, post a food diary.
 
There we differ Bluetit as the way of sorting calories was done over 100 yrs ago and new advice is showing that it is an outdated way of doing things the measures are to unreliable but like low fat and statins has become part of the mantra that is repeated at us.
 
Comment from one site .....
Researchers say much of the nutritional data on labels is based on outdated 19th century science.
The way food is cooked — as well as an individual’s metabolism — can make a dramatic difference to how many calories are absorbed.

Here is one of a lot of studies to back up the comments lots more studies out there
 
Mud Island Dweller said:
Comment from one site .....
Researchers say much of the nutritional data on labels is based on outdated 19th century science.
The way food is cooked — as well as an individual’s metabolism — can make a dramatic difference to how many calories are absorbed.

Here is one of a lot of studies to back up the comments lots more studies out there
Click to expand...
Do you know if the outdated data applies to carb values as well as calories?
 
Pass on that it depends when they started to check carb values. Possibly some does based on same reasons not something l looked into though.
 
All I know is I stuck to my personally recommended 1200 calories and 60 to 70g carbs. I lost 3 stone, never once plateaued, am now at goal weight and maintaining it with an extra 240 calories and no extra carbs. It obviously works for me. I am getting my extra calories mostly from cheese as I didn't have any before in the belief I didn't like it. I now like it. Lol.
 
Atkins induction diet gives meal plans free on net not on Atkins site so much

I also stopped for a month then dropped some more. That's how I seem to go. Fits and starts
 
Mud Island Dweller said:
There we differ Bluetit as the way of sorting calories was done over 100 yrs ago and new advice is showing that it is an outdated way of doing things the measures are to unreliable but like low fat and statins has become part of the mantra that is repeated at us.
Click to expand...
There has been a lot of research in the last 100 years .
Are there discrepancies? Yes, not all carbs and proteins yield 4 cal of energy and not all fats 9cal.
Does it make a great deal of difference?
Not according to a US committee that looked into it.One member said ' In most cases the error incurred will be about 5 per cent which is within the usually accepted limits of measurement error or biological variation'
Marion Nestle and Malden Nesheim's version
' Atwater factors are good enough for most practical-if not research- purposes. The size of the errors in Atwater Values hardly matters when compared to the much larger errors involved in estimating the nutrient content of food or the number of calories people consume and eat in each day/4
Why Calories Count , Nestle and Nesheim, Univ of California: 2012.
( a book well worth reading I'm not a low carbing fan but ketogenic 'Borofergie' felt the same, one of only 2 books I would agree with him on; correction 3, I also hated Atkins diabetes revolution ) http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/books-that-help-so-much.28911/#post-269220
Marion Nestles blog is here http://www.foodpolitics.com/
 
Thanks mud island, bluetit, yes i log everything, previously carbs n cals now my fitness pal. I will summarise tomorrow, but 97kg and 1700cals average. type 1 for decades, and always do bg.and I also use.a cgm. But lchf is new to me and has taken some adjustment (ongoing) to keep in range. I find that I need to use multiwave bolus carefully to stop rising after an hour or two, but it is not consistent yet and i am still adjusting... thanks again, zebedee time
 
Mud Island Dweller said:
Comment from one site .....
Researchers say much of the nutritional data on labels is based on outdated 19th century science.
The way food is cooked — as well as an individual’s metabolism — can make a dramatic difference to how many calories are absorbed.

Here is one of a lot of studies to back up the comments lots more studies out there
Click to expand...
@Mud Island Dweller
You might find this recent Time article of interest as it supports the point you're making:
http://time.com/2988142/you-asked-are-all-calories-created-equal/
 
mojo_101 said:
Thanks mud island, bluetit, yes i log everything, previously carbs n cals now my fitness pal. I will summarise tomorrow, but 97kg and 1700cals average. type 1 for decades, and always do bg.and I also use.a cgm. But lchf is new to me and has taken some adjustment (ongoing) to keep in range. I find that I need to use multiwave bolus carefully to stop rising after an hour or two, but it is not consistent yet and i am still adjusting... thanks again, zebedee
time
Click to expand...

Don't understand why you are multiwaving if you are finding an increase after 1.5-2hours? That to me would be indicating NOT to multiwave but to do a standard bolus.

I have cheese (brie) with a very tiny slither of quince jelly about 1hour after my main meal, (no biscuits) I actually bolus 22g for this, as an extended bolus for one hour. This keeps my levels absolutely level.

For example last night I had salmon and salad with oil at 17.55. My bm waa 5.5. I bolused 15g standard.
The salad had a large pointy pepper with philadelphia cheese on it as well.
At 18.41 I had a homemade lemon bar 22g. Standard bolus.
At 20.03 I was 5.8.
At 20.04 I had my brie and slither of quince jelly.
At 22.01 I was 5.9.
Went to bed.
Got up at 4.41am and my level was 5.7.

The homemade lemon bar was flaxseed, coconut ingredients and lemon juice..I do not use normal flour.

That meal last night had quite a lot of fat in it and moderate carb. My only carb other than that was 12g for berries, greek yogurt n flax seed for the day. My day levels yesteday ran from 5.0, 4.9, 5.8, 6.3, 5.5 and then figures just given to you.

No multiwave, just one extended bolus for cheese. Then before bed I have some walnuts.

I added fat in to my diet as I wasn't getting enough of it, so have also had to adjust for this. It is possible. I was also working out in my garden all day yesterday, so this included a lot of physical activity and also disconnecting for an hour in the bath.
I do not have a cgm anymore as it was not the best thing for me.

I don't know what foods you are eating to be needing multiwaves, but only time I would use a MW is a takeaway...

Sorry no advice on anything else....







Loving life
 
There was also a glass of red wine-no bolus....and no change in levels.
I do ieat this sort of food everyday though.. With a bit of variety on our sweet snacks and main meal may be salmon n chilli fishcake or quiche, chicken etc...

My hubby since having this food (extra fat) has lost over 3stone and is perfect bmi now and says he is never hungry.. He certainly doesn't sneak food like he used to..


Loving life
 
I multi-wave when having protein and fat with small amount of carbs. so depending on BG I would use the immediate part to cover any correction necessary to bring me back to between 5 and 6 (UK), plus the proportion I think I need to cover any fast acting carbs, with the remaining extended amount to cover protein spread over perhaps 2 to 3 hours. I have been experimenting with this approach, and use around 1 unit for 10g protein, and it seems to work so far.

But I am willing to take guidance on this, for example do type ones on lchf just calculate carbs, or "total carb equivalent" methods - using carb calculation, plus an amount for protein and fat?

Regarding my food diary and only specifying carbs
Breakfast
20g of bread with cheese, butter, and some marmite for salt
Note at the weekend i have time for bacon and scrambled egg with butter
Lunch
100g wafer thin ham - no marinade or anything else on it
feta cheese salad - lettuce cucumber small tomato, olive oil - total marked on packet at 7g carbs
no snacks if i can avoid it - ie unless low BG - rarely perhaps once per week.
Dinner
homemade chicken in vegetable sauce - approx 10 g carbs
broccoli or sprouts - nothing else
red wine 2 glasses

Over the past few weeks, I have averaged around 1800 cals, and my nutritional breakdown from my fitness pal weekly has been

Carbs - Fat - Protein
22 52 26
21 48 30
13 56 30
22 48 30

Thoughts welcome..... Thanks

For anybody else experimenting, please don't use my method without getting medical advice as I am not qualified to give advice.
 
Regarding the specific question I asked, requesting what can sabotage low carb ketogenic fat burning, I don't think that I received any real responses.

So again, I would like to know whether once you have got into ketogenic metabolism, whether a single meal with "too many" carbs can knock you out of this, and how long it then takes to re-establish ketosis.
And whether there are any other factors which limit fat burning and change the liver's or other metabolic responses.

If I understand some more about possible No-Nos I can then make sure I am not doing anything unconsciously which is limiting my success.
 
I am probably not getting into ketosis because I eat too much protein.
This can sabotage any ketogenic effects of low carb.

I think the fat:protein:carb ratio should be something like 80:15:5.
I think protein should be not more than 1g per pound of body weight per day.
From your figures it looks as though you are eating around 50% fat so you may need to up the fat quite a lot.
It is counter intuitive, but if you try and live on mayo and double cream you may go into ketosis :-)

Allegedly, having one carb boost can reverse the ketosis for a few days but I get very confused when I read about ketogenic athletes who use carbs during races.

The only real way to know if you are in ketosis is if you test your blood with a meter.
I am trying to decide if I should get one.

Cheers

LGC
 
Sabotage factors
Yes to much carbs or protein can knock you out of ketosis
Wine (and definitely beer) can do the same
To little fat as well
Depending how deep your ketosis are it can take a day or much longer
To be sure you need to either measure blood ketones (fasting) or use a Ketonix http://www.ketonix.com/
Exercise can help you get back faster into ketosis
 
I think we all differ with where our body moves into ketosis.

The more I low carb, and the lower my carbs, the more I get 'the feel' for my body when in and out of ketosis.

For me, under around 35 g carbs a day, I'm comfortable and confident of being in K.
40-80 ish g and I'm in the middle ground.
90+ and I'm back to carb misery.

For me, it doesn't matter if the carbs are concentrated to one meal or spread across 3.
However, the more spread out my carb intake is, the lower my carb cravings the day after...
 
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