Low carb and Muscle loss

gooner10 said:

Good afternoon folks

Has anyone doing low carb experienced any degree of muscle loss ?

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I have been low carbing for 10 years with no muscle loss. Is something happening to you to lead you to ask about this?

No but it’s conceivable you could begin catabolising muscle mass if your overall energy intake is too low. Not 100% sure but it’s perhaps also possible you could find it hard to build lean mass if your insulin levels have dropped off a cliff due to low carb or testosterone is very low. Too many ifs and buts. Pretty sure body builders would say you need heaps of carbs and insulin to build muscle but they are an extreme end of the scale, so who knows.

Jim Lahey said:

catabolising muscle

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What is this?

I can’t show the proof but I know for a fact I shed muscle low carbing, I was very extreme LC and went crazy with exercise also, I found myself weak if I tried to build muscle in the gym, I had always been big and strong, thick forearm type of strong, I did a very physical job but found muscle exercises very hard, cardio got easier and easier as the weight fell off, I did a lot of running and my legs became pure muscle, I had something ridiculous like 2% body fat but upper body remained(s) weaker, I’m getting older now so doesn’t bother me, I can ask for help with the heavy lifting without embarrassment now lol

edit, for me weak and thin trumps fat and strong so had no regrets.

edit again, now I’m fat and weak, not sure how that happened

I have experienced a lack of muscle gain.
It turned out the main reason for that wasn't less insulin production, but rather the use of herbal remedies like turmeric and berberine. After I stopped these I finally gained some muscle.
Metformine is another common cause of muscle loss among people on a LC diet.

Bubbleblower said:

I have experienced a lack of muscle gain.
It turned out the main reason for that wasn't less insulin production, but rather the use of herbal remedies like turmeric and berberine. After I stopped these I finally gained some muscle.
Metformine is another common cause of muscle loss among people on a LC diet.

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Do you have some evidence to these claims please?

lucylocket61 said:

What is this?

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Broadly speaking catabolism is the breaking down of mass into fuel. Essentially the body eating itself. It’s the opposite of anabolism which is building mass. Anabolism and catabolism are two sides of the metabolism coin.

Andydragon said:

Do you have some evidence to these claims please?

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Atrogin-1 Affects Muscle Protein Synthesis and Degradation When Energy Metabolism Is Impaired by the Antidiabetes Drug Berberine

Iron Deficiency Anemia Due to High-dose Turmeric

Metformin blunts muscle hypertrophy in response to progressive resistance exercise training in older adults: A randomized, double‐blind, placebo‐controlled, multicenter trial: The MASTERS trial

Metformin inhibits mitochondrial adaptations to aerobic exercise training in older adults

gooner10 said:

Good afternoon folks

Has anyone doing low carb experienced any degree of muscle loss ?

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Unless you are an unusual case, there is (on average) no muscle loss for people on a Low Carb way of eating as opposed to a low carb low calorie diet!
Just cut the carbs, not the calories and make sure you eat plenty of proteins and fats.
Several forum members train with weights and follow a Keto (extreme low carb) way of eating because muscle is a good store for glucose.

Bubbleblower said:

Atrogin-1 Affects Muscle Protein Synthesis and Degradation When Energy Metabolism Is Impaired by the Antidiabetes Drug Berberine

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Since when has berberine been a drug? - Its a health supplement!

ianf0ster said:

Since when has berberine been a drug? - Its a health supplement!

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Whether something is a drug or a health supplement is a classification by regulatory authorities.
This article calls berberine a drug for example....
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5839379/

ianf0ster said:

Since when has berberine been a drug? - Its a health supplement!

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looking at the second paper as shown above, I note that his iron was already falling before the turmeric was apparently started, and it starts to rise before the turmeric apparently ends. Either the graphs are lying, or something else is going on at the same time. This guy has so much medical prodding going on it is difficult to extract a clear and clean association between turmeric and his iron anemia. He was already apparently falling anemic way before the turmeric.

Edit to add: anemia is often associated with inflammation, which the patient was also suffering from
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/anemia/2012/563251/
Maybe berberine or turmeric did what it is often claimed to do which is reduce inflammation and that it was coincidental that stopping it occurred at a time when it had reduced the other condition to the point that the effect of inflammation no longer affected the blood response.

Oldvatr said:

looking at the second paper as shown above, I note that his iron was already falling before the turmeric was apparently started, and it starts to rise before the turmeric apparently ends. Either the graphs are lying, or something else is going on at the same time. This guy has so much medical prodding going on it is difficult to extract a clear and clean association between turmeric and his iron anemia. He was already apparently falling anemic way before the turmeric.

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I am afraid turmeric really prevents the absorption of iron. After I stopped it my hemoglobin increased from 8.7 (range 8.5-11) to 10.3 in just three months. Another n=1, but still. Here is more research on the topic:
Inhibitory effects of spices and herbs on iron availability

Did you quit Gymnema Sylvestre and if so what were the effects on your glucose levels?

Bubbleblower said:

I am afraid turmeric really prevents the absorption of iron. After I stopped it my hemoglobin increased from 8.7 (range 8.5-11) to 10.3 in just three months. Another n=1, but still. Here is more research on the topic:
Inhibitory effects of spices and herbs on iron availability

Did you quit Gymnema Sylvestre and if so what were the effects on your glucose levels?

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You got a good memory. I was advised by my heart team to stop it, along with the Metformin and my second gliclazide 80mg tab. ~I did not have a chance to stop it singly so unable to say if it worked or not. Previously I did a similar trial where it appeared to drop me by about 1 mmol/l but my levels did not rise after I stopped it. So my theory is that it assists in removing insulin resistance, but does not directly lower bgl. The effect was about the same as Metformin. Coincidentally I am currently running about 1.5 mmol/l high after my meds were stopped which is consistent with the dropping of Metformin so it seems Gymnema did not lower my bgl once it had cleansed my system. I am also recovering from a couple of weeks on Eatwell hospital food, so totally upset (to avoid moderation)

Looking at the new paper that you linked, my first comment is that tropical diets tend to be plant-based meals that have low bioavailability of iron Second comment is that they are measuring polyphenols, and seem to be blaming them for inhibition of iron uptake, yet the elephant in the room is Tamarind, which seems to sit halfway in the polyphenol range, but enhanced iron absorption, not inhibit.

Note that there is a defect in their theory. Polyphenols are known to stop the absorption of non-heme iron, but not heme iron. So again, plant food meals would be affected, but not meat-based meals.(unproven)

Note that one of the worst culprits for this effect is tea. Spinach is also a poor source for iron it seems because of the phytochemicals. Apricots and grapefruits are similar I believe.

In vivo trials using diabetic cohort apparently showed turmeric improved blood sugar, but were probably not monitored for haematocrit or ferritin. Also probably not long term enough either to show anemia. But the studies you referenced seem to be in vitro not in vivo, so may not be fully representative,

I would suggest that any muscle loss is due to either a lack of protein, and or an over emphasis on cardio (which I did initially).

Many think running or biking when exercise is possible, which are great for glucose control, but not so good for muscle building, with the exception of sprint style training (have you seen Sir Chris Hoys legs or 100 metre sprinters) . I get my cardio by walking, and HIT functional cardio with Karate 6 to 10 minute no rest blocks, punches and kicks, with a focused wedge of resistance exercise. If I have time constraints resistance always for me is preferenced.

I don’t think low carb in itself is catabolic. I did lose a lot muscle mass due to my metabolic issues (T2). I’m low carb now and I have more muscle mass at 54, than anytime in my life. As @Mbaker says, eat protein and resistance train.

Mr_Pot said:

Whether something is a drug or a health supplement is a classification by regulatory authorities.
This article calls berberine a drug for example....
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5839379/

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Regardless of whether something is classed as a drug or a supplement it doesn’t stop there being interactions of course. But somehow in the minds of the public I think there is a belief that supplements aren’t problem. Interesting human psychology maybe

this is really interesting to me as I hadn’t known about potential interactions and the studies do seem to indicate issues but may need further research