Mastering Diabetes by Cyrus Khambatta and Robby Barbaro

Deleted member 532959 · Oct 28, 2021

bulkbiker said:
So you have very high FBG (10 mmol/l) and are considering adding more junk food to your diet to make it more like the SAD that Barnard marked his vegan effort against and you think that may help with your condition..

Good luck with that.

Your n=1 will be interesting to say the least.

I think it was wrong of me to use the term junk food, as I don't really view food in those terms. But yes...for the month of November, motivated by being fed up of the false-narrative being spread about ultra-processed foods being responsible for obesity, diabetes and whatever else is currently in need of a bogeyman.

My experience of having grown up in the 70's, and getting fat very early in life, should make me the poster-boy for the revisionist-historians. But my experience of the world, both then and now, completely flies in the face of all of it.

So, I'm going to try to emulate, as far as possible, the diet I ate as a kid/teen. Certain foods will of course be substituted with vegan versions (I will also intend, where possible, to substitute low-salt versions of foods). Essentially, i will be testing the theory that the diet, resplendent in UPF will cause me to gain weight and worsen the few markers that I'm currently able to test (BP, weight and blood-sugar).

I'm actually quite excited. But I have doubts I'll even make it past the half-way mark. We'll see. Should be interesting, at least for me.

Deleted member 532959 · Oct 28, 2021

bulkbiker said:
My bolding...

Yet you went back to vegan and developed T2... hmmmm.

At least you don't claim it's for your health.

How about instead of guessing (Incorrectly) you just ask, instead

My low-carb/primal etc. phase was about eight years-ago. I wasn't diagnosed until four years later. And it wasn't till about 1.5 years later that I became the vegan that you know and love

Incidentally, that 10mmol was the first time I'd tested in two weeks, and haven't tested since. When I had my blood tested, back in July (The first blood-test I've had since diagnosis, four years ago), my FBG was 154 mg/dl, so there is variability.

Geordie_P · Oct 28, 2021

Beating-My-Betes said:
How about instead of guessing (Incorrectly) you just ask, instead

My low-carb/primal etc. phase was about eight years-ago. I wasn't diagnosed until four years later. And it wasn't till about 1.5 years later that I became the vegan that you know and love

Incidentally, that 10mmol was the first time I'd tested in two weeks, and haven't tested since. When I had my blood tested, back in July (The first blood-test I've had since diagnosis, four years ago), my FBG was 154 mg/dl, so there is variability.

Variability between 8.5 and 10.0 seems quite high, and 4 years for a blood test seems like quite a long time. Please be careful: I myself don't really like testing much, but often it's the only way to really know what's going on.

Oldvatr · Oct 28, 2021

Beating-My-Betes said:
How about instead of guessing (Incorrectly) you just ask, instead

My low-carb/primal etc. phase was about eight years-ago. I wasn't diagnosed until four years later. And it wasn't till about 1.5 years later that I became the vegan that you know and love

Incidentally, that 10mmol was the first time I'd tested in two weeks, and haven't tested since. When I had my blood tested, back in July (The first blood-test I've had since diagnosis, four years ago), my FBG was 154 mg/dl, so there is variability.

I would say you are flying on a wing and a prayer. Your FBG in July was 8.6 mmol/l (UK) and your spot check 2 weeks ago was 10 mmol/l.

I am on a medium carb diet with moderate fat (lazy version of LCHF), but my monthly average for FBG check is 6.0, and my 2 hr post prandial average is 7.2, My daily average of all readings is 6.7 mmol/l My highest post prandial is 9.4 after a poor meal choice. I was DX'ed 30 years ago and my FBG at that time was less than either of the results you posted here.

It is clear that your adventures with Low Carb / Primal were before you became diabetic, so you were obviously not interested in using your diet as a control mechanism. You do not seem to be testing much now, so how do you know that your WOE is helping your condition? How will you evaluate the effects of your proposed diet changes?

Deleted member 532959 · Oct 28, 2021

Mbaker said:
Again as I always say, show the results. I would like to see hom-ir, hs-crp, trigs, hdl (ratios), fasting insulin and cgm traces / fbg and post prandial readings. I would like to see some examples anywhere, of how persons on a Vegan high carb diet are doing after 5 years, with exercise and without. . To stay accountable here are some of my fasting and post postprandial results over the last few days of spot testing:

View attachment 51799
I have pictures of around 99% of every meal I have had for over 3 years, which can be cross referenced with my medical records. Cyrus and Robby are getting free advertising when Cyrus himself has spikes of 170 mg/dl (9.4 mmol/L) - all credibility gone.

I used to follow Tim Sheiff when I was plant based and exercising 3 hours a day for an A1c of 41-42. This gent was easily the best on UK Ninja Warrior, a prime time ITV show, the "V" diet ruined his health, I have countless examples of the same. There are sites I cannot link to in this post as the human suffering some go through is shocking, to the point I think YouTube should consider taking down. The purpose of my post is to highlight that the "V" diet is new, is counter intuitive for Type 2's not proven in the mid to long term (3, 5 and plus years), either in a trial (which I don't care much for), but with real world anecdotes. The claims of being safe for all stages of life, need those who said this to be assessed, as it is like the school children marking their own home work. On this basis for Type 2 reversal it does not deserve too much time, and Type 1's should perhaps insist in see CGM traces for this protocol. Of course the choice is there, but the holes have to be highlighted.

As an atheist, I have learnt not to bother getting into conversations about the existence (or lack there of) of god with those whose entire (in this case) existence, and that of their existence after life, is dependant on such beliefs. Even though I have no burning desire to convert people to a god-less life, I also do not wish to waste time discussing with people who will never budge on their position.

Similarly, with veganism, I have no interest in back-and-forth with those whose entire lifestyle and belief system would be fundamentally threatened by any notion that veganism could be both a healthful and sustainable lifestyle choice.

I am mentioning this here, partly because it's the fist time this has come up in a while, but mainly because you seem to be among a small contingent of people within this community, who's views on veganism go way past understandable caution and firmly into anti-veganism - something I no longer have any interest in wasting my time countering. You do you, boo

If I have you wrong, then I truly apologise.

Of course, if you or anyone else has a genuine interest in discussing veganism from an open-minded standpoint, then i'd be happy to do so (though I'm sure this'd be better in a separate thread). And anyone is welcome to 'pm' me at any time.

lucylocket61 · Oct 28, 2021

Beating-My-Betes said:
As an atheist, I have learnt not to bother getting into conversations about the existence (or lack there of) of god with those whose entire (in this case) existence, and that of their existence after life, is dependant on such beliefs. Even though I have no burning desire to convert people to a god-less life, I also do not wish to waste time discussing with people who will never budge on their position.

Similarly, with veganism, I have no interest in back-and-forth with those whose entire lifestyle and belief system would be fundamentally threatened by any notion that veganism could be both a healthful and sustainable lifestyle choice.

I am mentioning this here, partly because it's the fist time this has come up in a while, but mainly because you seem to be among a small contingent of people within this community, who's views on veganism go way past understandable caution and firmly into anti-veganism - something I no longer have any interest in wasting my time countering. You do you, boo

If I have you wrong, then I truly apologise.

Of course, if you or anyone else has a genuine interest in discussing veganism from an open-minded standpoint, then i'd be happy to do so (though I'm sure this'd be better in a separate thread). And anyone is welcome to 'pm' me at any time.

I know vegans. I respect veganism. I have no issue with their choices

My only issue is with veganism being promoted for unproven health benefits. I feel the same about any other diet too.

Deleted member 532959 · Oct 28, 2021

Goonergal said:
I really don’t want to derail the thread, but to clarify, the examples absolutely are worthy of consideration, but in the right context. N=1 examples - as I said - are valuable. However, those being quoted on this thread are from sites with vested interest. My interest is in independently verified evidence, hence the request to be pointed in the direction of papers similar to those produced by Dr Unwin as part of his medical practice.

Personally I love n=1 examples, but in a context where the n=1 is explaining and sharing their own experience with others, as is the case all over this forum. The forum is a place for peer support and hearing from people who have been there and done what one is trying to achieve for oneself is very powerful and helpful. While among type 2s low carb - in its broadest sense - is the predominant approach, within that are a myriad of different strategies and eating regimes.

What I have never seen - and I am genuinely interested as to it’s feasibility, is an n=1 talking about their personal success with the Mastering Diabetes (or similar) approach. I happen to think that anyone doing this would be welcomed as it can be difficult to advise and support those who wish to manage type2 with a vegan way of eating in the absence of personal experience or any rigorous evidence of the efficacy of such an approach.

Sadly, theoretical discussions with or without an underlying agenda don’t help people looking for practical solutions.

Well, it's at least encouraging that you are open to the prospect/possibility. And of course it's your right to decide how you weigh-up the value of different types of evidence.

For me, i don't see 'vested interests' as an inherently bad thing. Everyone has a vested interest in something.
Personally, i don't care if someone wants to sell a book, a program, private-coaching, or even to leave some kind of legacy. All I'm interested in is that what is being presented to me is true, or at least to the best of anyone's knowledge, at the moment of presentation.

What I'm failing to understand (and it could be just me being dumb) is how there being vested interests (In this case, along with the very demonstrable wish to help, there is of course monetary gain) would affect the veracity of the anecdotes. I doubt you're actually inferring foul-play along the lines of coercion, or finessing of numbers/data, so what am i missing?

Deleted member 532959 · Oct 28, 2021

Alexandra100 said:
@Beating-My-Betes, thanks, I would be very interested to read these files, but am having no success in opening them. Can you help?

Not really sure i can. The links, at least in the PDF as I send them, are clickable and should take you directly to the page in question.

Are you on a Mac or PC?

Deleted member 532959 · Oct 28, 2021

Geordie_P said:
The original poster says he will address the issue by upping his junk food levels.

I think that's a particularly uncharitable interpretation of the situation

Geordie_P · Oct 28, 2021

Beating-My-Betes said:
I think that's a particularly uncharitable interpretation of the situation

It's not so much an interpretation as a direct quotation: your exact words, no less. That said, we post a lot here and things sometimes get misphrased or misunderstood, so I'll assume you meant something else.

Deleted member 532959 · Oct 28, 2021

Geordie_P said:
Variability between 8.5 and 10.0 seems quite high, and 4 years for a blood test seems like quite a long time. Please be careful: I myself don't really like testing much, but often it's the only way to really know what's going on.

Thanks!

There are various reasons (none of which i intend to divulge) why I've not had regular access to a doctor. Hopefully the situation will change, in the not-too-distant future.

So, it wasn't that I was avoiding blood-tests. It's just I hadn't realised that there was a lab near me that could draw blood and send for analysis. While it's not something i can afford on a regular or semi-regular basis, i will try to get tested a couple of times per year (Will probably go in February).

As for home-testing: I'm just not convinced of the utility of multiple daily tests when I'm not using the resulting data to refine my diet. Going without testing my FBG for long periods, however, is not by design. I just have a very small quantity of strips, currently. Last time I ordered them to be sent, from England, they got caught up for a long time in customs, and I had to overspend/waste money on strips from Amazon, to cover the interim period (That will likely have to happen, though).

I'm not currently sure how I will test, over the coming months, but it will likely be something along the lines of testing FBG, every 2-3 days, and testing measured, repeatable meals, by way of getting a vague idea of progress

lucylocket61 · Oct 28, 2021

Beating-My-Betes said:
Thanks!

There are various reasons (none of which i intend to divulge) why I've not had regular access to a doctor. Hopefully the situation will change, in the not-too-distant future.

So, it wasn't that I was avoiding blood-tests. It's just I hadn't realised that there was a lab near me that could draw blood and send for analysis. While it's not something i can afford on a regular or semi-regular basis, i will try to get tested a couple of times per year (Will probably go in February).

As for home-testing: I'm just not convinced of the utility of multiple daily tests when I'm not using the resulting data to refine my diet. Going without testing my FBG for long periods, however, is not by design. I just have a very small quantity of strips, currently. Last time I ordered them to be sent, from England, they got caught up for a long time in customs, and I had to overspend/waste money on strips from Amazon, to cover the interim period (That will likely have to happen, though).

I'm not currently sure how I will test, over the coming months, but it will likely be something along the lines of testing FBG, every 2-3 days, and testing measured, repeatable meals, by way of getting a vague idea of progress

I may be misunderstanding something, but how is it possible to claim success on any eating plan when you take so few measurements that you have no results to place your claim on?

Your user name is beatingmybeetus - but you don't know if you are or have done so.

I am bewildered.

Oldvatr · Oct 28, 2021

@Beating-My-Betes You have not provided a single piece of credible evidence in this thread that supports the OP. Thank you for sharing pert of your journey with us, but sadly, all it shows is that you are not currently controlling your diabetes with any great sucess, and you are hardly a brilliant advertisement for your chosen WOE.

I and others here, have demonstrated fairly eloquently alternative methods that we are using to control our condition that have better success rate.

You talk of a sustainable WOE in veganism. There are, as you should be aware , many shortcomings in that diet that can give rise to long term deficiencies if not addressed in earnest. We have in other threads tried to open up the discussion to provide information for novice followers of the vegan diet, Neither the OP nor yourself have made any attempt to elucidate or increase awareness. I see that you mention a time frame of 2.5 years as a vegan. I have 8 years experience as a Low Carber, and 30 years as a T2D, I would not consider your experience as being long term by any means.

PS I am also an atheist. Boo

Deleted member 532959 · Oct 28, 2021

Oldvatr said:
I would say you are flying on a wing and a prayer. Your FBG in July was 8.6 mmol/l (UK) and your spot check 2 weeks ago was 10 mmol/l.

I am on a medium carb diet with moderate fat (lazy version of LCHF), but my monthly average for FBG check is 6.0, and my 2 hr post prandial average is 7.2, My daily average of all readings is 6.7 mmol/l My highest post prandial is 9.4 after a poor meal choice. I was DX'ed 30 years ago and my FBG at that time was less than either of the results you posted here.

It is clear that your adventures with Low Carb / Primal were before you became diabetic, so you were obviously not interested in using your diet as a control mechanism. You do not seem to be testing much now, so how do you know that your WOE is helping your condition? How will you evaluate the effects of your proposed diet changes?

I will evaluate progress by measuring certain variables.

Deleted member 532959 · Oct 28, 2021

lucylocket61 said:
I know vegans. I respect veganism. I have no issue with their choices

My only issue is with veganism being promoted for unproven health benefits. I feel the same about any other diet too.

I have even less tolerance for vegan propaganda than anyone on this board (I'll take the truth, even if it paints veganism in a negative light). However, my vegan 'quack' list still probably trails behind my low-carb quack list.

Definitely not much in it, though

lucylocket61 · Oct 28, 2021

Beating-My-Betes said:
I will evaluate progress by measuring certain variables.

How will you evaluate progress without a reliable starting point eg a recent HbA1c?

Jaylee · Oct 28, 2021

OK..
Back on topic. Unless anyone can put forward their own experience on the featured diet in the header title.
Posts will roll..

Thanx in advance.

Oldvatr · Oct 28, 2021

As the Op is a whole food plant based diet, then there needs to be care taken to cover the areas where the diet is nutritionally deficient. The obvious ones are vitamins B12, B6, Folate, D3, K2, and also calcium and selenium which normally require supplementation in the long term.

This is what is recommended. It is the only mention of supplementation I could find on their website
"Dr. Khambatta recommends a supplement containing Indian gooseberries, Amla Green, which contains Amla berries with green tea. He also noted that there are some effective anti-diabetic medicinal herbs, including cinnamon, berberine, fenugreek, gymnema sylvestre, and bitter melon, but he does not see them as a core component of the natural managing diabetes approach. "

Jaylee · Oct 28, 2021

Jaylee said:
OK..
Back on topic. Unless anyone can put forward their own experience on the featured diet in the header title.
Posts will roll..

Thanx in advance.

OK...? I seem to keep having to delete posts...

So, here is the proposition. I'm going to "turn the lights off" for a few minutes & when I switch them back on.

Any off topic messages posted after my request for anyone who has actually experienced this diet featured to contribute. & my current post.

Should be self deleted..

Much love...

JohnEGreen · Oct 29, 2021

All I will say is most of us have followed a similar diet at some point after all what was the advice we were all given for so long eat less fat eat plenty of carbohydrate. And following that advice brought so many people here so I think in all probability this thread is dead so roger dodger .over and out...

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